What crime were the "To catch a predator" subjects committing?

Over in this thread Bricker says

I’m curious: What exact crime did they commit?

Is there a law that says that you can’t talk dirty to people whom you think are underage, even if they aren’t?

If you have sex with a girl whom you think is 16, but is actually 20, are you committing a crime?

What are the applicable laws?

IANAL, but I’m pretty sure that soliciting sex over the phone with a presumed minor is a crime in most states…

What I always wondered is if it was a 13-year old claiming they were 18, would it be a crime then?

Right, plus a large number fo states over the last few years, after the rise of the 'net, have further refined their relevant statutes so that the conduct incurred by the TCAP subjects is itselfexplicitly defined as an offense. IIUIC with these statutes all that is needed is that the express communication made for the record be about one of the parties being a minor, regardless of that party’s real identity/age.

There’s a family of crimes referred to as “specific intent” crimes, comission of which does not require the possibility that actual criminal act occurred.

For example, if you hold up a bank with a toy gun, but you believe it’s a real gun, you can still be charged with armed robbery in many jurisdictions.

Some states address this, saying that the accused had to have knowingly been a pervert. However, if it is obvious that the child is young and lying, but the creep sleeps with him/her anyway, then the court can decide that the accused was grossly negligent.

The Ohio Revised Code has this to say:

(bolding mine)

WRT To Catch a Predator, this code applies:

So, basically, if you solicit a minor over the internet, or even a cop posing as a minor over the internet, you’ve broken the law. (at least in the state of Ohio)

Here’s the federal statute:

(Emphasis added.) 18 U.S. Code § 2422 - Coercion and enticement | U.S. Code | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

IANAL, but it seems that statute does not apply specifically to To Catch a Predator, as they are actually enticing law enforcement officers. There are state laws that work around this (as quoted above), but is there anything at the federal level that makes enticing an officer posing as a child equivalent to enticing a child?

Allow me to illustrate:

United States v. Farner, 251 F.3d 510; 2001 U.S. App. LEXIS 9226 (5th Cir. 2001) (Emphasis added.)

Awesome, thanks. So basically, while it’s not spelled out in the law, it is interpreted as equivalent by the courts.

Well, to be doctrinally accurate, if I think the person is a minor and I try to entice them to have sex with me, I am attempting to commit the crimes (glossing over a few details). So the law covers it expressly when it says “or attempts to do so.” The defendant in *Farner *(and many other cases) offered the defense that the crime he’s accused of attempting would be impossible to commit because he was mistaken about an important fact–he wanted to hook up with the 14-year old girl named Cindy. He was unaware that Cindy was really a hairy male FBI agent. Courts rejected this argument long ago because the guy is just as dangerous. If it really *had *been Cindy he was talking to, he would have had sex with a 14-year old girl. He tried to fit his defense into a slightly safer impossibility defense–legal impossiblity, which the court rejected. The problem with legal impossiblity is that it’s usually just factual impossiblity reframed slightly. See, e.g., http://www3.fdle.state.fl.us/OGC/Case_Updates/cu9911_9-17.html

So if you were just online cruising for hairy FBI agents pretending to be 14-year-old girls, you’d be legal, except it would be impossible to prove that you weren’t cruising for 14-year-old girls?

What if you were married to David Duchovny’s character from X-files?

Not directly related to the question, but I must share: There’s this underground comedian Josh London who has a routine where he’s talking about God, and he says “I don’t really have any strong thoughts on God, except that I sort of think of him as Chris Hansen in ‘To Catch a Predator.’”

Assuming the guy didn’t know the 13-year old was lying, probably not. See, e.g., United States v. Meek, 366 F.3d 705; 2004 U.S. App. LEXIS 7470 (9th Cir. 2004) (upholding section 2422 over First Amendment challenge because, “Knowledge of the age of the person induced is essential to the construction of § 2422(b) because, with few exceptions, the inducement of a person over the age of 17 into sexual activity is generally not illegal. Because we conclude that the term “knowingly,” as it is used in § 2422(b), requires the defendant to know or believe that the person whom he seeks to induce into sexual activity is a minor, § 2422(b) does not infringe on legitimate speech between adults.”)

And if I really had a hard 16 inch dick, I would be a porn star. Where is my money and my movie deals?

I dunno. I know it’s the court’s decision, but it reeks of “We don’t like the guy, he’s a perv and we want to lock him up, but he hasn’t broken any laws. So let’s twist this law to be able to put him away”.

But he has broken the law.

*Meek *

United States v. Tykarsky, 446 F.3d 458; 2006 U.S. App. LEXIS 11622 (3d Cir. 2006)

So can police set up a fake bank, and if you go in there with the intent to rob it, you will be charged with attempted bank robbery, even though there was no bank there to begin with?

They use decoy cars http://www.abcactionnews.com/news/local/story/Hillsborough-Sheriff-receives-bait-car-to-catch/TmbhP1QBy0eiIOjGc2ttig.cspx , decoy hookers Undercover as Sex Workers: The Attitudes and Experiences of Female Vice Officers | Office of Justice Programs , and decoy drug dealers http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/ny_local/2002/04/19/2002-04-19_sting_nets_alleged_hitman_hi.html . Why not a decoy bank? :wink:

Let me ask you this, say you and I got into an argument and I got so mad I wanted to kill you. I see a gun and some bullets on a table I pick it up and put the bullets into the gun I cock the gun and point it at your head and scream “Die mother fucker Die!” and pull the trigger. Nothing happens. In fact the gun had no firing pin although I did not know that. It was not possible for the gun to fire. Have I attempted to kill you? The answer is yes.

Askeptic, in your example, the person you attempted to kill actually exists. What if you attempted to kill someone who didn’t exist? Would you still be expected to be charged with attempted murder?