What is un-natural about a predator catching prey? 
I’m not following here. Their legs are not being zapped off by creatures from another universe in another dimension.
People catch crabs. We eat them. They are wounded and killed in the process.
Sounds about as natural as it gets.
I think phungi meant that it’s not something that a crab would experience in its normal environment that would be selected against.
I think phungi should reply.
In response to yoyodyne: Doesn’t make it un-natural.
With respect to natural loss of legs, not loss due to fishing gear -
Crabs, shrimp and other crustaceans can accelerate their molting time if they lose limbs. From what I seem to remember, in this case limb loss was more rapid with warmer temperatures rather than colder temperatures.
Of course, in those crab traps, many limbs will get loss completely unrelated to any molting.
What is un-natural about a crab trap (pot).
Please, will someone finally explain this nonsense?!!
wevets?
yoyodybe?
**
phungi**?
*
Hellooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo? *
Generally in American English the term ‘natural’ is used to distinguish man-made objects from those that aren’t. The implication that humans are unnatural or supernatural is not the usual meaning in American English and not the distinction a writer would be attempting to make.
I don’t know how the term is used in British English or any of the African or Indian subcontinental versions of English, does the meaning vary?
The problem is that on these boards, implying that humans preying on creatures is somehow un-natural is just adding to the ignorance.
Humans are very much part of nature. In a very simplistic and immature way, humans are somehow removed from nature, but in a more sophisticated and less ignorant way (here), we are part of nature.
To me, it is important on these boards to see humans as part of nature. It is also important to understand that when man shoots a deer or captures thousands of crabs in pots, that we see that as part of the selection process. It is ‘natural’, for it is through evolutionary processes (natural selection), that we are here building these tools and traps.
Much like we must relentlessly push back when someone says, “What is the purpose of x body part” (pushing back against the word ‘purpose’… or even ‘design’), we must push back relentlessly against the notion that man’s actions are somehow ‘un-natural’.
On the SDMB, we are obligated to fight this sort of ignorance.
Quite frankly, I am disappointed the SDMB die-hards have not chimed in.
I don’t know what the hubbub is about; all phungi did was give an objective description of what happens when crabs are trapped; I certainly saw no moral judgements in his comments. Nor do I see anyone calling it ‘unnatural’.
Yes, but evolutionary processes would not be able to move as swiftly to potentially counter the effects that cause the legs popping off as we humans do in creating new technology. In that sense, this is an “unnatural” intrusion into the crab’s ecosystem - how many millions of years have crabs or near-crabs been crawling along a cold ocean floor, versus we humans who in a veritable blink of an eye practically transformed from some pack hominid that had just figured out how to pick up a stick into something that can decide to yank crabs up from the ocean floor by the hundreds in minutes of time.
Humans are natural, but we’re also an aberration.
But… We are part of the evolutionary processes!
We are part of the crabs ‘normal’ environment.
What is this nonsense that we are not ‘normal’ or part of something ‘normal’?
Technology is – indeed – part of evolution.
His use of the word ‘normal’ bugs me. Are we the most ‘common’ predator to the crab? Maybe not. But we are part of the normal environment.
Hey, if we prey on crabs enough that we threaten their existence, and they cannot adapt, and the go ‘bye bye’, then that is evolution.
Evolution is not the survival of a species, evolution is all the processes. Extinction is part evolution.
Maybe there are crabs with traits that allow them to survive in great enough numbers despite our pots/traps. Maybe those traits get passed on. Maybe they don’t. However it shakes out, that is evolution.
Evolution led to the boat… the pot… the GPS tracking. We are natural. ** Crab pots and GPS systems are as natural as a coral reef.**
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For 99.99999% of the crab’s existence as a species, man has not been a significant predator. That’s changed recently, but adaptation to that fact has barely begun.
Evolutionary scientists recognize this, and don’t get bugged by common uses of the word ‘normal’. Especially when it describes how crabs came to be what they are today.
Well, that’s fine. Since this isn’t Great Debates, and since even evolutionary scientists battle with the utmost passion, I am going to cease and desist.