More importantly, what did an “all-loving” god do before there was anything to love?!
I guess he really thinks you’d like it if you experienced it. Not a terrible sentiment.
But (IMO) words are a rather imperfect tool for demonstrating any kind of love.
Loved himself, of course!
One answer to this might be that he loved us anyway, given that time and space aren’t generally considered to be limitations - there are Bible verses to support this idea, if ‘support’ is the right word.
I thought it was meaningless to talk about what happened “before” the universe existed. 
Upon being asked what God was doing before he created the universe St. Augustine retorted, " He was busy creating Hell for people who ask questions like that!"
Augustine would not have done well as a Doper. 
I realize I’m resurrecting an old thread, but this thread went dormant while Nomadic_One was out of town. Now that he’s back, I have a question:
Are you or are you not going to warn your friend that he’s spreading lies?
Ben your really into this arnt you. Well Im not sure if he is available to comment at this time. But I did talk to him about this thread and he is interested in reading it. Dont worry I am sure you will have your chance to debate him to death too.
speaking of lies, can anyone point me in the direction of something to help refute the “missing link” dilemma, because im debating someone and they keep bringing it up. Id really like to shut it down…
Thanks in advance…
Alien:
Try http://www.talkorigins.org
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#pred4
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/punc-eq.html
Short answer. The fossil record is always going to be incomplete, but we do have very good “missing links” or transitional fossils. It is just every time an evolutionist claims a fossil is a missing link, the creationists shift their definitions. There will be no pleasing them, ever.
I wish this whole subject would go away. It is really kind of pathetic from a scientific or a logical perspective. I really, really want the Texas Longhorns to win in football. But when they are down by 24 with 7 seconds left in the fourth quarter, I know when to call it over. No amount of team spirit, faith, or praying will be of any use.
Creationism is down more than 24 with 7 seconds left. No amount of faith or prayer is ever going to make evolution go away. Just like religion has backed off of other scientific issues, it needs to toss in the towel against evolution. I hope with it goes the whole moronic idea of biblical literalism. Most world religions have had no problems with this. Even most sects of Christianity have backed off. It is just a small, predominantly American group of evangelical Christians who refuse to give up.
Religion works very well for lots of people. The belief in God seems to make many people very happy. There is no reason why this love should be tempered because our histones are nearly identical to those of the cow, the elm tree, or E. coli.
The “missing link” is basically a canard. The fossil record is not exactly complete but many of the intermediate steps are known.
Here is some info on “missing link” arguments and intermediate homonid fossils from Talkorigins.com.
Basically “missing link” is a God of the gaps argument. Whenever an intermediate species is found then the creationists say "aha, but what’s in between that and the next one? It’s an infinite regression.
Yes, thats exactly the problem. I already pointed the guy towards talkorigins, but he came back and said, ok but where are the transitions between those species.
Have you guys heard of some argument that proves that blood clotting could never have evolved? the same guy brought up the argument, and I couldnt find anything anywhere on it. However, Id like to refute it if possible…
Funny, I thought that when I asked you offlist you indicated that you weren’t going to, on the grounds that you were leaving the SDMB.
Re: proof of God’s love, the best way I’ve yet seen of doing that is not to say “GOD SAYS X” or “GOD SAYS Y” or “REPENT NOW OR FACE HAYULLL!!!”
The best way is to live in such a way that you leave the earth better than you found it. Quiet, but deliberate, witness. One of the best witnessers on this board does it without quoting the Bible much at all, without talking at great length about God all the time, without interjecting all the time about religion. He does it by treating people with respect and love. If there were anyone who could successfully witness in every forum, he’s it:)
…more of a leave of absence…
I like that the peoples’ of this board have an intellectual capacity that is greater than a toaster…kinda hard to find on the internet these days…
…I wouldnt call him quiet…he is outspoken at times…
I wish he would try some issues like this one wink wink sometimes…
Alien2022
The blood clotting cascade is one of the “irreducibly complex” systems held up by proponents of Intelligent Design, notably Michael Behe who wrote Darwin’s Black Box. They say that there is no way that a complex cascade which, at heart, performs one task, could have evolved independently.
To summarize the blood clotting cascade, there are two major activation paths of blood clotting, which funnel into a common pathway. The pathway starts by activating proteases, which activate other proteases by cutting them. Eventually, thrombin (a protease) cleaves fibrinogen into fibrin. Fibrin forms blood clots.
See this:
http://www.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/blood-coagulation.html
http://www.genmapp.org/MAPPSet-Human/GenMAPP.org_MAPPs/Other_MAPPs/Hs_Blood_Clotting_Cascade.htm
The rebuttal is easy. It is just layered complexity, which is pretty easy to explain evolutionarily and not “irreducible.” First, most of the cascade is composed of serine proteases (one protein family), which were mostly derived from duplications of digestive enzymes. Yeah, it is all tightly controlled and there now exists strict interregulation. But that is easy to explain with Darwin – there is a huge selection to make this pathway work right. Too much or too little clotting are both bad for fitness. Any novel mutations causing better regulation were likely to be kept. Also, mutations in less-dependent members of the chain are compatible with life. So evolution is still tinkering with this system. Around 1/190 Ashkenazi Jews have Factor XI (PTA) deficiency, which causes minor bleeding episodes and occasional protracted bleeding after surgical procedures. This is by no means the only one – the hemophilias and von Willebrand disease come to mind.
http://biocrs.biomed.brown.edu/Darwin/DI/Clotting.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/feb97.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/dispomim.cgi?id=264900
No I actually thoght alot about those emails and I am in the process of well, something I think you will enjoy. Its all good.
Why don’t you invite him to do so?
Nomadic_One, earlier you told me that evolutionists cannot be real Christians.
Do you believe that evolutionists who consider themselves to be Christians will go to hell?
edwino, re: difficulties or excess of ease in clotting, is there any evidence that either of those two indicates any other problem with the genetic formula of the person affected such that a reduced life span or expectancy is usual? If this is being put in a confusing way, I’m basically asking if there’s any evidence that too little or too much clotting is tied to any other abnormality/condition/etc.
Nomadic_One, what I meant by quiet is that he does not loudly proclaim his religous beliefs for all to see, and when he does post about them it is almost invariably (I think I remember once or twice in the Pit and elsewhere he was not as respectful, in theory, as he could have been, and it was utterly understandable and appropriate, IMO) in a respectful manner.