Anyone who has taken a look at the Bible can easily see that information about life on Earth before the Flood of Noah (described in Genesis 7) is scant. This period of supposed history supposedly lasted hundreds or thousands of years, but we are told almost nothing about the culture, politics, or demographics of the general population. We are told that there was a city named Enoch, but we aren’t told how big it was, where specifically it was on Earth, or what the political structure of the city government looked like.
I am looking for information outside of the Bible that
Acknowledges a biblical-type Flood.
Gives additional information about the practicalities of the world before the flood.
Does not need to agree 100% with the Book of Genesis, but should arguably have at least a theoretical foundation in the stories that eventually were put together in the Book of Genesis that we know it today.
I am aware of the Books of Enoch (1 Enoch, 2 Enoch, and 3 Enoch), the Sumerian King List, and the Epic of Gilgamesh, and would consider them all in scope for this question.
I’m preferably interested in older works, rather than something that your little sister wrote while drunk at a party in 2005, but these things are relative. Be reasonable.
Whether or not the Book of Genesis, the Flood Myth, or anything else is, or is not, accurate history (or based on accurate history) is out of scope for this question. Don’t simply reply that it is a myth. I am aware that most academics do not consider any of this stuff to be valid history.
Just to clarify (as I’m confused by your request): you want non-mythical information about something you know is a myth (but we’re not to mention that)? That sounds like an impossibility to me, but it’s probably that I’m just misunderstanding your request.
I will have to find a cite for this but, as to the flood. The Black Sea was entirely land locked at the end of the last ice age(major) and entirely fresh water, sea level rise in the Bosporus eventually broke through and inundated the area with salt water, a massive rise happening very quickly. I know there are Archaeological sites within diving distance and there is an anaerobic zone so ships and other things that sink are often well preserved, and this seems to be a reasonable source for the flood story. The odd thing about the flood story is that so many cultures have it, it even is in Norse Mythology
No, I am looking for mythical information that can arguably be said to derive from the same source as the Genesis account. I mentioned the Sumerian King List. Very few would consider that non-mythical, but I said it was a valid example of what I am looking for.
I have heard it said that Chinese civilization was keeping written records back to times before “The Flood,” but this only invites the question of when the Flood was supposed to have happened. If you use Ussher’s time line (or Harold Camping’s) then you could cite ancient Chinese writings for a picture of what the world was like “Before the Flood.”
(In turn, this invites the question of how those writings survived, and how anyone could have read them, and why the Chinese believe they are descended from the writers of that era, rather than from descendants of Noah who would have migrated east from Ararat, etc.)
The difficulties seem insurmountable… But your approach is admirable, in a kind of “pseudo-archeological” fashion. We’re all pretty sure there was no flood, but what harm is there in looking for evidence for it anyway? It’s like searching for Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster. It’s a damn waste of time…but freedom and liberty include the right to waste our time if we want to!
Maybe you know it, but the Gilgamesh flood story is probably a shortened version of the epic of Atra-Hasis, with more background:
[QUOTE=Wikipedia]
Tablet I contains a creation myth about the Sumerian gods Anu, Enlil, and Enki, gods of sky, wind, and water, “when gods were in the ways of men” according to its incipit. Following the Cleromancy (casting of lots), sky is ruled by Anu, earth by Enlil, and the freshwater sea by Enki. Enlil assigned junior divines[6] to do farm labor and maintain the rivers and canals, but after forty years the lesser gods or dingirs rebelled and refused to do strenuous labor. Instead of punishing the rebels, Enki, who is also the kind, wise counselor of the gods, suggested that humans be created to do the work. The mother goddess Mami is assigned the task of creating humans by shaping clay figurines mixed with the flesh and blood of the slain god Geshtu-E, “a god who had intelligence” (his name means “ear” or “wisdom”).[7] All the gods in turn spit upon the clay. After ten months, a specially made womb breaks open and humans are born. Tablet I continues with legends about overpopulation and plagues. Atrahasis is mentioned at the end of Tablet I.
Tablet II begins with more overpopulation of humans and the god Enlil sending first famine and drought at formulaic intervals of 1200 years to reduce the population. In this epic Enlil is depicted as a nasty capricious god while Enki is depicted as a kind helpful god, perhaps because priests of Enki were writing and copying the story. Tablet II is mostly damaged, but ends with Enlil’s decision to destroy humankind with a flood and Enki bound by an oath to keep the plan secret.
Tablet III of the Atrahasis Epic contains the flood story. This is the part that was adapted in the Epic of Gilgamesh, tablet XI. Tablet III of Atrahasis tells how the god Enki warns the hero Atrahasis (“Extremely Wise”) of Shuruppak, speaking through a reed wall (suggestive of an oracle) to dismantle his house (perhaps to provide a construction site) and build a boat to escape the flood planned by the god Enlil to destroy humankind. The boat is to have a roof “like Apsu” (a subterranean, fresh water realm presided over by the god Enki), upper and lower decks, and to be sealed with bitumen. Atrahasis boards the boat with his family and animals and seals the door. The storm and flood begin. Even the gods are afraid. After seven days the flood ends and Atrahasis offers sacrifices to the gods. Enlil is furious with Enki for violating his oath. But Enki denies violating his oath and argues: “I made sure life was preserved.” Enki and Enlil agree on other means for controlling the human population.
I always figured that flood myths come naturally to people who live in river valleys. Water rising and washing away people and settlements is a pretty common thing to happen in a river valley.
That would explain a flood myth, but “The Flood Myth” is a little more complex than that. It involves a flood caused by supernatural means which is forewarned by some supernatural entity. Thanks to the warning a small number of pairs of men and women survive in some sort of refuge, often a boat but almost as often upon mountain tops and occasionally underground, in caves or other places. The survivors then emerge from their hiding place and produce children, and those children go on to give rise to all the ethnicities of the world.
That is “The Flood Myth” that is found throughout the world, on literally every inhabited continent. If we discount oral history of an actual global events, there must be some deep seated psychology going on to recreate such similar myths among so many dissimilar cultures. It certainly can’t be attributed to a single even in the Black Sea region.
What I find most fascinating is that the event is always a flood. All these cultures have myths of other sorts of catastrophes such as fires, plagues, volcanoes and so forth, but the catalyst for the creation of the different ethnic groups is always the flood. It’s also interesting that they agree that thee human groups are all descended from the same ancestors, which is what I wouldn’t expect of tribal communities. I would have expected the myths to declare that only our group was truly created by the Gods, and everyone else was a subhuman flawed creation.
Anyway, if you’re interested in sources acknowledging a Biblical type flood, you can start with Dhang Nghiem Van’s “The Flood Myth and the Origin of Ethnic Groups in South East Asia.”
Water in dreams [& mushroom trips] is very often a symbol of emotions, flooding is well flooding of emotions and a can signify that we are not coping with things. If we look at these myths they seem to all signify a point of change for the respective communities and therefore great emotional impact.
Alright alright alright already. This thread has been hijacked into a debate about the origin of flood myths around the world, which was not my intent. My question is - other than the examples I gave (which are intended as examples to indicate what I believe are legit extrabiblical sources regarding the flood myth) and examples already provided, what are some ancient writings that purport/claim to describe the day-to-day life, culture, political or other geography (e.g. the City of Enoch or some other city was on the western shore of a lake), or otherwise purport to give a detailed view of life before The Deluge occurred as it exists in flood myths in many different cultures, whether the source acknowledges a Sumerian deity, a Babylonian deity, a Greek deity, the Abrahamic God, your mom, or some other divinity as the creator of life and/or the instigator of the flood. For example, the Sumerian King List indicates agrees with Genesis that people lived longer lives in general before the Flood (though it disagrees on the extent), but it also indicates that the Capital of political power transitioned several times to different cities, which is not indicated in Genesis or in the Epic of Gilgamesh.
We are not engaging in “real” historical criticism here, so calm down.
Mark Twain wrote about this, in some of the writings collected in Letters from the Earth.
Oh, you were looking for something older? How about some of the Greek myths of Deucalion, the Greek counterpart to Noah? The Wikipedia article has a list of ancient sources.
I don’t think it’s what the OP is looking for, but IIRC, Velikovsky postulated that there was a real, historical Flood, caused by Saturn exploding and shedding much of its mass.
Also, if you have access to it, you’ll want to check out the various Middle Eastern texts reprinted in J.B. Pritchard, Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament, which despite its name is not restricted to texts relating to the Old Testament.
Probably not what you want, but Madeleine L’Engle wrote a book about Noah and his family called Many Waters. It relies on the pre-flood account in Genesis in particular the Nephilim. Its a bit slow plot wise but does provide an interesting idea of antediluvian culture.
(Nitpick: Dang Nghiem Van. There’s no dh combo in Vietnamese.) Thanks for sharing that. I’m going to have to check it out. I’ve heard the Vietnamese origin story from many sources, and it’s always about a man descended from dragons marrying a woman descended from fairies who give birth (via a giant egg sac) to 100 children. I’ve never heard anything akin to the Biblical flood story.