Creationist Propaganda?

this is with regards to http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbigbangmyth.html

lets take a look at this… SDSTAFF David says that the arguments stated by john from alabama sound like Creationist Propaganda…
So “you” Proved the “shrinking Sun” concept wrong, point for you.
However, you incorrectly state that there was no “gravitational spin” prior to the big bang. the truth is we know absolutely nothing about events before the big bang, as all our theories break down at the moment of the singularity. (unless you wish to challenge Stephen Hawking…?)

A better question would be why the universe is so nonuniform. If all matter was condensed to one point of infinite mass and density then when it expanded it should have expanded uniformly, creating a giant soup of disjointed particles. but for some reason it did not. (also, by some strange series of “we dont understand, but it must have happened because we refuse to see things any other way” hypotheticals, the equal amounts of matter and antimatter that had to have been created at the Big Bang did not anihilliate with one another and thus end the universe. funny how that all works out.)

I think a better phrasing of the Evolution question would have been “Why is there no fossil evidence of intermediate phases between animals that currently exist?”
You might say, “Oh, but there are intermediate phases! Just look at Australopithicus, or Piltdown Man, or Lucy!”
Uhh… BUNK. All of those supposed intermediate phases have been shown to be hoaxes, or incorrectly documented or excavated finds.
The truth of the the matter it, evolution should not even be considered a theory. According to the scientific method a theory has to be observable (dicey), testable (uhm, you try it), and have repeatable results (fat chance). Evolution’s credentials barely qualify it to be a hypothesis.

One last thing, perhaps you can refute this…
Did you know that the odds of one protein forming randomly, and folding itself correctly are the same os the odds of selecting the one red marble in a bucket full of blue ones, if the bucket is the size of the MILKY WAY GALAXY

Well, I know nothing about proteins forming or folding correctly, but still this seems a rather inexact comparison. I understood that the galaxies are expanding, so that the size of the MILKY WAY GALAXY would be constantly changing. At what date was this comparison determined? Aug, 2003 when you posted it? Last year? 4,004 B.C.?

“Prior to the big bang” is an oxymoron. In general, it’s thought that the big bang did indeed have zero angular momentum and that the universe as a whole has an angular monetum of zero.

I don’t know where you got the idea that the universe is non-uniform, it’s very uniform and it’s this uniformity is what non-big bang cosmologies in general cannot explain. 300,000 years into it’s existance the universe was anisotropic by only 1 part in 10,000. These non-uniformities were caused by quantum flucatuations and grew due to the effects of gravity.

I don’t see why you’d think an even amount of matter and antimatter had to be created, the laws of nature are not perfectly symmetrical. The anhilation of antimatter was what was responsible for the early universe’s inflationary stage.

<< Did you know that the odds of one protein forming randomly, and folding itself correctly are the same os the odds of selecting the one red marble in a bucket full of blue ones, if the bucket is the size of the MILKY WAY GALAXY >>

The odds are irrelevant. What are the odds of your lottery ticket being a winner? Infinitesimal. But if you find the person who DID win the lottery, try telling him that he couldn’t have possibly won because the odds are against him.

In short, we are living on the place where it happened. So the odds are completely irrelevant – except to say that it is highly unlikely to find life on any nearby other planets.

MC- the difficulty lies in the fact that an evenly expanding mass of matter/antimatter would not tend to form planets, stars, and all the other stuff we see floating around our universe. I will concede that on a large scale the universe is uniform, however on a smaller scale it is quite “lumpy” the point i was trying to make

oh one quick question… does anyone know why an object of infinite density would suddenly expand? it seems a violation of a few laws and principles that something with finite mass, and zero volume, and therefore (do the calculation) infinite density could suddenly escape its own gravity and blow apart

Forty2: The latter part of your challenge relates to a phenomenon known in biochemistry as Levinthal’s Paradox. Essentially, the Paradox refers to the fact that proteins are capable of folding themselves correctly, even outside their host organism, in a vastly shorter time than would be required if reassembly were random.

You can find details of Levinthal’s 1969 experiment in a biochemistry textbook – there might be good explantions on the Web too. I’m going to concentrate on what it means.

Calculating the probability of a protein reassembling ‘randomly’ is subject to a lot of arbitrary decisions. Perhaps the simplest way is to imagine breaking, say, all the disulfide bonds (strong links between different parts of a protein) in a protein with ten of them, and calculate the expected time for all of the twenty ‘broken ends’ to find their correct partners. Calculation of the expected time is left as an exercise to the reader (evil grin), but it is much longer than the age of the Universe.

The paradox is that, experimentally, the ‘broken’ proteins reassemble themselves correctly within seconds. (This is not true of all proteins; some will only assemble correctly when aided by other proteins, or in certain conditions.)

Now, Levinthal’s Paradox implies that protein folding is not a random process. There are chemical aspects of the proteins that require them to fold in a certain way. Explaining all of these aspects is beyond the scope of a message board – many, of course, are beyond my knowledge, and many are poorly understood. The shape of the ‘cloud’ of negative charge (electron density) surrounding the protein is an important factor, as is the attraction or repulsion of various parts of the protein to water.

I doubt that this explanation of protein folding will suffice to refute the second part of your assertion (‘and folding itself correctly’). It’s an observed phenomenon, though. Again: Protein folding is rapid and not random. This greatly reduces the ‘odds’ against an abiogenetic origin of life.

Forty2: The first part of your assertion is rather more difficult to attack, so I’m doing it second.

Your claim deals with the probability of an unspecified ‘protein’ forming and folding randomly. I concede that it is extremely unlikely for a protein to form and correctly fold randomly. However, I argue that this does not preclude an abiogenetic origin of life on Earth. I dealt with protein folding in a previous post; now I’ll argue that protein synthesis is also non-random.

Unlike protein folding, proteins do not self-synthesize. You can’t just mix together amino acids and expect to get proteins. Protein synthesis is a directed process; protein sequences are stored in (present-day) cells as DNA, transcribed to messenger RNA by other proteins, and taken to ribosomes, where they pair with complementary transfer-RNAs which add a particular amino acid to a growing ‘proto-protein’. This, incidentally, is called the Central Dogma of Molecular Biology, and is rare among dogmas as being testable and observable (though more has been added to it since its first formulation).

It’s possible to create random proteins: you can add a ‘coupling agent’ to the aforementioned mixture of amino acids, and random amino acid chains (peptides) begin to form. The probability of a given polypeptide forming in this way is (1/20)^n, where n is the number of amino acids in the sequence. For n=100, this is 8 x 10^-131 – it would take many times the age of the universe for a given sequence to appear.

Clearly, proteins do not arise randomly. So we have two possible conclusions:

  1. Life cannot have arisen without supernatural intervention.
  2. A mechanism for directed protein synthesis, and perhaps for assembling those proteins that could not self-assemble, existed prior to the first proteins.

The discovery of catalytic RNAs in the early 80s led to the suggestion of an ‘RNA world’, a time when life was based on the catalytic activity of RNA, rather than proteins. While RNA catalysis is rather more limited than that of proteins, it is sufficient to direct protein synthesis – even now, the ribosomes where proteins are synthesized are made up mostly of RNA.

Some, but not all, of these ‘ingredients’ in RNA have been shown to arise from simple chemicals that would have been present in the early atmosphere and oceans. Those which have not yet been observed probably someday will be. Presumably, a mechanism existed for the synthesis of the bases and sugars in RNA and for the assembly of ribonucleotides, the ‘building blocks’ of RNA.

Present-day RNA contains four different bases, but primordial RNA may have had a different (almost certainly smaller) number.
Lacking any knowledge of a non-random process for RNA synthesis that may have existed in the primordial world, I’m going to assume that RNA synthesis, at least at first, is random.

The first step is finding an RNA capable of synthesizing RNA according to a template – a replicator. As soon as such an RNA arose – it would have been a small, crude molecule at first – the possibility for evolution on a molecular level begins. Replicators capable of working more quickly would emerge by slight errors in the replication process, and those new replicators would eventually lead to new replicators, making the old ones obsolete. These replicators would have had the ability to use templates other than their own complements, and they would have made copies of many other RNAs.

It is known that amino acids can arise from simple molecules (e.g. in the Miller-Urey experiment – the conditions of the experiment were not the same as the early atmosphere, but other routes would have existed). And once ribozymes capable of RNA synthesis arose, it would be a matter of time before RNAs began to conduct peptide synthesis. This would probably have been an adaptation of the existing process – they would have used a template, and not merely catalyzed random peptide synthesis.

Essentially, what I’m arguing is that neither protein synthesis nor protein folding is a random process. The sequences of proteins in present-day organisms are the result of billions of years of evolution, and are much more complex than the proteins that would have existed at the beginning of that process.*

*: We know more than you’d expect about the earliest forms of life. By analyzing the DNA of organisms from bacteria to mammals, one can predict what proteins are found in all life, and thus must have been present in the ‘last common ancestor’ of all living organisms.

I think that’s enough for now. Forty2, I’m sure you’re unconvinced. But if there’s anyone here who might be only somewhat doubtful about evolution, maybe I’ve convinced them that it really doesn’t matter what the odds of synthesizing and folding your unnamed protein randomly are. No living thing has ever depended on a randomly-created protein for its existence – organisms carry the information, the result of the lengthy process of evolution, needed to make proteins of their own.**

**: This isn’t true of ribozymes. A process called SELEX (the E stands for evolution…) has been developed for selecting RNA sequences capable of catalyzing a given reaction out of countless random sequences.

There’s a very good website explaining one theory of the origin of life at The Geochemical Origins of Life. There’s a ‘layman’s abstract’ available, but you’ll need a basic understanding of chemistry.

These two articles (with references to appropriate journals) explain what I’ve just said with more detail:

Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics, and Probability of Abiogenesis Calculations

Borel’s Law and the Origin of Many Creationist Probability Assertions

These are both from the talk.origins archive.

A quick question Forty2, how many pro-evolution books have you read? Did you take any classes that covered evolution?

im just as fair and even handed as the next guy. in fact if have read a couple, i am currently rereading A Brief History of Time (which is actually where is got most of my physics arguments AGAINST BB theory, go figure)

Yes, it would because matter would very soon start to lump together due to gravity, throughout it’s early history the universe was extremely isotropic and homogenous, but tiny quantum flucatuations are all that is needed to cause a small amount of anisotropy and then gravity will take it’s course and you’ll find tha matter lumps together. The universe is though to be composed mostly of matter (as opposed to antimatter).

It’s meaningiless to say that the Universe had angular momentum before the Big Bang, and it’s likewise meaningless to say that it didn’t. In fact, any statement containing the phrase “before the Big Bang” is meaningless. It is, however, reasonable to assume that the Universe, at the moment of the Big Bang and at all times later, had exactly zero angular momentum. First, this is the simplest assumption about the A. M. of the Universe. Secondly, a net angular momentum would be inconsistent with the observation of large-scale isotropy (that is to say, space looks about the same, on average, in any direction you look). Third, a universe with nonzero angular momentum would allow for causality violations, which seem to lead to all manner of paradoces, and are generally considered a no-no.

As for the matter-antimatter imbalance, the laws of physics are almost symmetric on the matter-antimatter distinction, but only almost. Certain subatomic particles called neutral kaons show a very slight bias (about one part in a thousand) towards one over the other, in their decay, thus proving that there exists some asymmetry between matter and antimatter. There is not yet any model which can use this asymmetry to explain why antimatter is so scarce, but hypothesizing that such asymmetries could cause the situation is far from ludicrous.

Others have already addressed the lumpiness issue, so I’ll just reiterate: Gravity can take very small lumps and turn them into very big lumps, and quantum mechanical effects can produce the small lumps needed for gravity to work on.

Roches is far more knowledgeable than me about biology, so I won’t add anything to his specifics on molecular biology. I will, however, add a few general comments. You claim that evolution is not a theory, because it is not observable or testable, and does not have reproduceable results. But evolution has been directly observed on a small scale, as, for example, with the moths of London. It’s also been indirectly observed on a large scale, in the fossil record. If we look at the fossil record, we see that organisms are preceeded by other similar organisms, and that differing later forms share similarities with common earlier forms. Not only are there examples of transitional forms in the fossil record, but there are no examples of non-transitional forms. All organisms are transitional forms. Evolution is also testable: If, for instance, genetic data leads me to believe that whales are decended from ruminants, then that might lead me to suppose that whales will have certain bone structures common to ruminants in their limbs. I can then dissect a whale to see if it does have those bone structures, thus testing a small portion of the theory of evolution. Put enough of those small tests together, and you’re testing all of evolution. And the results of such tests are repeatable: If whales are descended from ruminants, then there will be many tests of that form which indicate that.

I can’t believe that nobody’s questioning this statement:
*
I think a better phrasing of the Evolution question would have been “Why is there no fossil evidence of intermediate phases between animals that currently exist?”
You might say, “Oh, but there are intermediate phases! Just look at Australopithicus, or Piltdown Man, or Lucy!”
Uhh… BUNK. All of those supposed intermediate phases have been shown to be hoaxes, or incorrectly documented or excavated finds. * !!!

the truth is, i went on this rant mostly because SDSTAFF David didnt adequately back up his assertions (read the article if you haven’t http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbigbangmyth.html ) or used incorrect rebuttals

i enjoy a good debate, especially when people know why they are saying something, other than “my high school science teacher said so” so good work

:o

Whoops…

Piltdown man was a fraud, lucy wasn’t and neither was Australopithicus (if I’m remembering correctly). Here’s plenty of human transitionals, via Talk Origins.

Here’s some “mammal like reptiles”.

Horse evolution.

Archaeopteryx, another transitional.

While this is certainly a response and discussion of a Staff Report, I’d like to suggest that there are about a zillion threads in the Great Debates forum on each of those issues (big bang, evolution, fossil evidence, etc)

In short, this ground has been covered, and often. Comments on David’s Staff Report, fine. Debate on the issues, go to the Great Debates forum. Clear distinction?

Given the origin of the Big Bang theory, doesn’t modern religious opposition to it strike anyone else as deliciously ironic?

Why is this religious? I see nothing in the OP that states anything about religion. Unless of course it’s believed that the only people who say evolution isn’t a theory by the definition of a theory is religious.

Can explain “the adaptive change in coloration of moths” but not “how there came to be moths in the first place”

“It is now approximately half a century since the neo-Darwinian synthesis was formulated A great deal of research has been carried on within the paradigm it defines. Yet the successes of the theory are limited to the interpretation of the minutiae of evolution, such as the adaptive change in coloration of moths; while it has remarkably little to say on the questions which interest us most, such as how there came to be moths in the first place.” (Ho M.W. & Saunders P.T., “Beyond neo-Darwinism - An Epigenetic Approach to Evolution,” Journal of Theoretical Biology, Vol. 78, pp.573- 591, 1979, p.589). [top]

As a matter of fact, Svt4Him, the Big Bang theory can’t explain the adaptive color change of moths nor the existence of moths. Likewise, the Law of Evolution cannot explain the Hubble redshift-distance relation nor the cosmic microwave backround radiation. Big Bang cosmology and evolutionary biology are completely different disciplines, in different fields of science, explaining different phenomena.

Dogface’s historical reference is to the fact that when the Big Bang theory was first discovered, it was hailed as proof of the existence of God. The previously-accepted cosmology posited a Universe which had always existed; the fact that the Universe had a beginning was taken as implying that it had a Creator. And while there are undoubtedly some non-religious people who doubt the Big Bang theory, I’ve never met nor heard of a single one of them. Hence, the irony in most of the debate against the Big Bang being by religious folks.