Is that good enough, or do I have to cite the entire Internet? Geez, my facts are straight. Your criticism is unwarranted.
That is what I’m doing right now moving to another country. At this point it been about a year to get all our ducks in a row - crossing our I’s and dotting T’s all the way. Every time we submit something (which we thought would be our last paperwork) we have to file something else and send another filing fee.
It’s easier for us because my wife has already been hired for a job in the new country. That doesn’t mean it won’t take time or is less a pain in the ass.
In the mean time my family and I have been waiting in a weird limbo with one foot over the border.
The thing is, I really want to move. I’m not going to risk it by hopping the border in the dead of night and attempting to stay by doing crap work until the papers are done being filed. I’m going to follow the rules and go through the system no matter how crappy it is.
Reading all about these protests and illegal aliens these last few weeks really made me realize something. If someone wants to move to the US because they love the country, they’ll follow the rules (no matter how shitty 'the rules" are at the moment). These are the people the US should welcome with open arms. The flip side are the people who just want to come to the US to make money. They’re more than willing to break the laws to make a dollar. I say fuck them. The US has enough of those people already.
Not so. According to the USDA’s figures, over 300,000 agricultural workers from Mexico and Central America were here legally in one recent year (over 400,000 were illegal migrants).
I agree with you that enforcement aimed at employers has been pitifully lax.
I was waiting for a couple actual legal immigrants to speak before I did. (I know at least one other did, but Seven 's was right there) I totally believe that the calls to grant citizenship to all the illegal aliens just because they’re here is a complete slap in the face to those that put in their due, did the paperwork, payed the fees, etc etc.
If all the illegal aliens love the US and want to be here as much as they say, they would be willing to go through the process like every legal immigrant. If they would do so, they would get the respect and status that they claim to desire.
Except that “illegal alien” impiles that they, personally, are illegal, not what they do. I can play word games too.
I still want to know what all these jobs that americans won’t do are. In my family alone…my mother cleaned houses for a living for several years, I’ve been a busboy, a number of us have picked vegetables, done yard work etc. They need to quit lying about this and tell the truth, it’s not jobs americans won’t do, it’s jobs illegal aliens will do for half the money.
Thanks. You should’ve done this in your OP.
Actually no, it directly means that they are an alien (see my prior definition) who is in this country illegally. A legal alien would be someone visiting the US on a passport or with a temp work visa, etc.
What for? To prove that I wasn’t hearing things? Give me a break.
No, they are not the same thing.
Allow me to draw a parallel. Suppose you decide to go to the beach, slip on a pair of swim trunks, and drive off. A police cruiser decides to stop you, and the officer politely asks to see your driver’s license – which is in your billfold, in your pants at home.
Odds are he will give you a ticket for failure to produce a valid driver’s license, which you will then have dismissed at court by producing your driver’s license and proving that you were in fact a legal driver who was not able at the time stopped to produce your license.
You were not an illegal driver. You were an undocumented driver. Significant difference.
Some people have legally entered this country but for one reason or another, often through incompetence at IRS, are unable to demonstrate this by producing the proper paperwork. They may be here on a term-limited visa, have duly applied for the extension to which they are entitled under law, and not yet have received the paperwork granting that extension. They are undocumented, not illegal.
Others may have believed themselves to have done the necessary actions to validly enter this country legally, and have found themselves the victims of failure to comply with some random section of the U.S.C. that they are not familiar with.
Undoubtedly there are in fact illegal aliens, and a large number of them. There are also people who are in this country legally, or who made every effort to comply with the laws, who for a variety of reasons are not in fact in full compliance with the law despite their best efforts.
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Finally, let’s note that “criminalize” and “be illegal” are not necessary synonymous. If I break a contract, I’ve committed an illegal act, for which I can be sued in court. But I have not committed a crime. If I park illegally, I’ve violated the City of Whatever Parking Ordinance. But I have not committed a crime under law.
Law != statue != criminal offense.
Daniel’s example may be pertinent. “Decriminalizing” marijuana may not be “legalizing” it, but reducing the offense of possessing it from the level of crime to a form of disorderly conduct or other petty offense not deemed a crime at law, equivalent to a traffic infraction or illegal parking. Illegality != crime.
I know it’s legal meaning. of course. The OP was complaining about how other peoples language sounded; I pointed out I can make the same claim towards his.
Incorrect, they pay taxes, even income taxes. In return, they get almost no services; we are exploiting them, not the other way around. Link
I can agree in part, there are some people who do not have their paperwork that they in good faith applied for. That does not apply to most of the people they talk about when discussing this issue.
I don’t really mind being in the minority, I form my opinions on stuff like this based upon what I believe, not because of what one party or the other says. As for what’s felonious about wanting a better life, nothing. I am a big supporter of legal immigration. A big supporter. That’s what America was built on after all. If you want a better life, then there is a process to go through. If you don’t go through that process, then you don’t deserve the chance for a better life here in America. Simple. How are we supposed to believe someone who claims that they just want the opportunity to be a part of American society with all the benefits and responsibilities that that entails when their very first act is to break the laws of the country they claim they want so much to be a part of? Actually, the people that surprise me are people like you Bob( actually, not really, political expediency, thy name is Florida). You claim to be a hard line liberal Democrat, exactly the people who should be opposing illegal immigration the hardest. You want better pay for working folks, less profits for corporations, massive government intrusion regulating everything from minimum wage to workplace safety, right? Illegal immigrants fly in the face of all of those causes. It’s not that they do the jobs that white and black Americans won’t do, it’s that they do them for a lot less that fair market wages. One of the reasons that they are willing to take less is because they often don’t have to worry about things like taxes or benefits. If we removed this pool of workers from the equation, than these jobs would have to be done legally, allowing all that government interference that you love so much.
I agree, and that’s why I put the phrase in quotation marks. I’ve been a kitchen grunt in a burger joint, and I’ve cleaned restrooms for a living. Around here, many farms grow hybrid seed corn, and many teenagers detassel corn in the summertime. These are local kids, not migrants. If I go to a local fast food place, there might be immigrants working there (I have no right to check their papers) but there are US citizens working right next to them, doing those “jobs Americans won’t do.”
In this town of about 35,000, there are enough customers to keep 3 or 4 little Mexican groceries going. I don’t know how many are here legally, and I’ll bet the handful of INS agents who cover this state don’t know either.
Thanks for the link - it was illuminating.
I wonder how the numbers issued (1.2 million last year, 9.2 million numbers issued since 1996) compare with the number of undocumented or illegal aliens present. The estimated number of illegals varies from 8 - 18 Million, and I wonder what the “turnover” of ITINs is (I.E., does 9.2 ITINs issued in 10 years = 9.2 illegals with ITINs in 2006?)
Because depending on the answer, anywhere from 10% to 90% are paying taxes.
Bears more examination.
Your analogy is inapt. Your driver who left his papers at home would equate to a legally documented worker who left his papers at home or lost them. The illegals we’re talking about, using your analogy, would be the driver that was UNlicensed and had no business being on the road. In which case, the police would most likely arrest him.
Nitpick - people in the U.S illegally are not the only people who apply for ITINs. Foreigners here legally but who are not employment-authorized, such as students or dependents of people here on most work visas, need them for various purposes - opening bank accounts, applying for driver’s licenses in some states, etc.
A good nitpick: the article says merely “[. . .] Individual Taxpayer Identification Number, or ITIN, designed for foreigners living here legally but now widely used by illegal immigrants.” So to truly prove itheir point, the reporter would need to define and support the words “now widely used”, and put that in context of the illegal vs. legal usage.
The article is not nearly precise enough about the numbers it includes to be able to make a rigorous claim. It quotes large numbers, without contextualizing them (the essence of my reply to Der Trihs), so while I can grant that the article tends to undermine my generalized comment (“Illegals don’t pay taxes”), it doesn’t necessarily prove the opposite.
My wife and two of my children have had ITNs. One reason for that was that if you are claiming a person as a dependent on your tax return, they need an SSN or an ITN.
Oh? I was under the distinct impression that the OP had addressed the issue of why we don’t call “undocumented workers” by the term “illegal aliens.”
What if someone physically loses his license (not a suspension but the physical loss of the license card proving that he is licensed), contacts the DMV for a replacement, and is told it will be mailed to him and he can legally drive, and then the DMV clerk fails to produce the replacement in a timely manner. Might that be an apt analogy?