Cryogenic treating of parts

Reference article: Can cryogenic cooling miraculously improve car parts, sports equipment, and musical instruments? - The Straight Dope

Cryotreating parts was something I was tangentially involved with (read: I bought some parts) in building my sports car. There were a few specific benefits mentioned to me, stronger parts, stress relief, but also increased resistance to wear. Did it improve my transmission? I dunno. It hasn’t broken yet, so it must not have hurt the situation any. The cryo treater also did a lot of business with vehicle fleets with cryo-treating disk brakes, stating that the improvement in mileage between replacement was substantial.

Parts that I received back looked different. Slightly darker in color.

Whether it’s hokum or not, look at the other things that are improved or affected by heat. Things like Pyrex Glass, non-cryogenic metal tempering (mentioned in the article), a hot windshield sprayed with cold water, vulcanization of rubber (arguably a chemical change) are affected by changing the amount and time that heat is applied or removed, wouldn’t it stand that extending the range for heating or cooling would likewise affect the parts?

The guy I used has a website that lists the benefits here: http://deepfreezecryo.com/process.htm

Not exactly cryogenic temperatures, but TE carried out some seriously weird experiemnts with ice-packed victrola horns. In his usual shotgun approach, he had lab assistants pack larhe victrola horns with ice, an tried to see if the sound was better. I don’t know what his conclusions were, though.

I don’t think he was arguing that it was complete hoakum. There certainly are phase changes that could act like this. It seems a bit odd that a metal not designed to go through this phase change in the first place would improve it’s behavior, but it’s not impossible.

I wouldn’t pay for it. I certainly wouldn’t trust a website that sells the process for any reliable information.

So what you’re saying is: it’s not horsepuckey, but you wouldn’t trust anybody that sells it, because it’s horsepucky?

Metallurgy is a pretty arcane science. Automotive applications doubly so. That said, I would not lump this process in with magnetic gas milage improvers.

In the case of my personal experience, it was requested by the guy that built my race transmission, and performed by an entirely different party. The transmission builder gained nothing financially from the deal and stated it was necessary to keep the transmission function behind the hp requirements I’d specified.

We’re treading into a lot of hearsay, reputation, and anecdotal evidence . A great deal of the results are published by cryotreating companies, but that doesn’t necessarily make them wrong. I’ve found a few published studies, but none that are 1:1 with this topic.

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/jbsmse/v28n2/29746.pdf

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TXJ-4KGG5Y1-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=9378b2d071e0f420e1b41b3625555f6c

The following is an article from Popular Woodworking:
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/pdf/cryo.pdf

I’m saying that I wouldn’t trust anyone that sells it, because they have obvious motives for trying to make it sound great. The only reference you gave that’s worth a dime (ie the only peer reviewed journal) is the one from Materials Characterization, and thats pretty slim pickings for an industry that could benifit greatly from it. Additionally, the abstract only indicates that “tensile behavior is marginally reduced”. I really have no idea what that means. I’m not a metallurgist (I’m guessing your not either), but I do know a lot about phase transitions and thats what this is. It is possible that cryogenically cooling a metal will induce a new irreversible or metastable crystal structure. It is unusual that all of the new properties of the cryogenically treated metal would be an improvement over the material that was specifically designed for that task, but not out of the question.

No, I would never pay for it. I’ll wait until the science is solid enough that it is a common practice among metallurgists.

I’m not a metallurgist, but I turn metal on a lathe, I’m heavy into hobby racing, I have a BS in Civil Engineering (structural), and nothing I’m going to find in 6 minutes of Googling will satisfy you…and I’m not going to bother. :wink:

I have played electric guitar, very well, for 45 years, own two Top 15 Market FM radio stations and moonlight as a mastering engineer also SBE and IEEE Certified for those of you who know and care. I have used Dean Markley Blue Steel Guitar Strings for about 20 years or shortly after they were introduced. They are frozen at 300 degrees F for I don’t know how long and they are without a doubt the best strings I have ever used, they are not “tinny” BUT RATHER POWERFUL. If you prefer your guitar to cut through the mix as a lead instrument give these a try, you should not be disappointed. Dean Markley Inc. couldn’t afford my endorsement fee if they asked except maybe in free strings for life. They last longer, break less and I swear I have picked up one of my several guitars after not playing it for months, checked it on a strobe tuner and it was right on the money. I defy any string to perform as well. [/FONT]

It’s too bad Cecil didn’t discuss razor blades.

I’ve been buying cryogenically treated razor blades for several years. The place I get them from is http://www.greatrazors.com/. Basically, men’s razors have become so expensive that I sought out a “better way.” It’s exactly the same Gillette blades I used to purchase previously; they freeze it in the package, and the only sign of something different is that they put a sticker on the outside of the box indicating the contents were treated. The price is marginally more expensive than the regular retail price. I definitely get at least three times the longevity out of a blade; a single blade that, untreated, used to last me a week before going dull now goes three weeks to a month after cryogenic treatment. I was initially skeptical and ordered it once to try it out and after being pleasantly surprised, have continued to do so.

I realize that this is all anecdotal on my part, but I’m sold on it.

I’m glad that it works, but I wonder how they were able to keep the plastic packaging intact when feezing it to that temperature. I assume that at least some of the packaging was plastic.

From their FAQ:

How did you freeze these without opening up the package?
Our Cryo process is very gentle, the temperature is lowered very slowly. This gradual temperature drop does not damage the package. So we can Cryo the razors right in the package. Just like the items in your freezer, the package stays intact. And since they stay at –300 F for 24 hours the cold goes right through the package and treats the metal blades.

Thanks.

Back in the eighties when turbochargers were allowed in F1 racing, BMW would use stock engine blocks with more than 100,000km on their back for their racing engines. The idea was that the thousands of heat cycles these blocks had seen made them very strong.

Later BMW found a way to replicate this effect on new blocks (cryo treating?) so they didn’t have to constantly search for old ones.

Note that these cars pumped out 1500+ hp out of 1.5 liter engines and BMW had the most powerful engines of that era.

The Cryogenic Society of America sent me a link to this forum. CSA is a non-profit technical society serving all those interested in any phase of cryogenics, the art and science of achieving extremely low temperatures — almost absolute zero. Their web site is www.cryogenicsociety.org/. I am the co-chairman of the ASM Cryogenic Processing Sub-Committee of ASM International. ASM International is the professional society of metallurgists and materials scientists. Their web site is at www.asminternational.org. Both of these organizations are extremely well known and respected in their fields. Both recognize cryogenic processing of materials as a legitimate, useful and valuable method of altering the characteristics of materials.

Cryogenic processing, (also called cryogenic treatment or sometimes incorrectly cryogenic tempering) is a thoroughly tested and effective process with many uses. Tests have been run by major universities, national laboratories, and by individual companies. NASA, the US Army, Illinois Institute of Technology, Los Alamos National Laboratory, Purdue University, University College, Dublin Ireland, and many others have tested the process and found it works.

One of the biggest uses is for treating of brakes used on cars and trucks. Independent laboratory tests prove that cryogenic processing increases the life of automotive brakes up to four times. The US Postal Service uses cryogenically treated brakes as do many police and fire departments. As brakes are a major repair cost, there are considerable savings involved. Porsche uses this process on cars used in endurance racing and has been able to complete hour races without changing the brake rotors, which saves considerable time in the pits.

Speaking of racing, valve spring manufacturers are using cryogenic processing to increase the life of their products. A six-time increase in valve spring life is not unusual. I personally know of racers who use treated springs for the full season of racing where their competition puts in a new $400 set every race. This effect is so profound that my company is assisting a doctoral student in her research to find out why. Jerico Performance Products (maker of the transmission that has won more NASCAR races than any other) uses cryogenic processing to increase the life of their products. My company alone has treated parts on over half the starting field in any NASCAR Sprint Cup, Nationwide Series, or Craftsman Truck series race.

Other uses abound. For instance, GKN company is a major OEM supplier of automotive components. They did research in conjunction with University of Trento in Trento Italy and found that cryogenic processing cut their tooling costs in half. Sunbeam Corporation uses cryogenic processing to increase the life of hair clipper blades. Manufacturers of plastics pellitizing knives have found tremendous life increases. Mining companies have found tremendous increases in the life of bits used to cut rock. Companies that machine metals save considerable money by having cutting bits, drills, taps, hobs, etc. treated. Newspaper printers save tremendous money by buying paper cutting blades that are treated.

In the musical field, many manufacturers of high-end audio components use cryogenics to increase the sound quality of their products. Do a web search for “cryogenically treated audio” to see for yourself. Treatment of vacuum tubes has been shown by research and by practical use to increase sound acuity and tube life. CD’s sound better when treated. I know, because I’ve heard the difference in a blind test. Treated guitar strings are available in most music shops. My colleagues and I have processed musical instruments for professional musicians who absolutely love the process. There is a piccolo company that not only uses the process to make their production process easier, but has found better sound as an addition.

Speaking for CSA and ASM, there is no doubt that this is a process that is valuable and worth pursuing.

F. J. Diekman

Thank you, Warbird!

If the two razors (cryo and non-cryo) are visually identical, you might want to try conducting a double-blind experiment yourself, for the sake of science. Take two identical envelopes, put a cryo-treated blade in one, and the non-cryo in the other. Mark the back of the envelope with the identifying information. Then thoroughly mix up the envelopes you you can’t tell which one is which anymore (don’t look at the back). Pick an envelope at random, Shave with each razor for a couple weeks, or until you feel it getting dull. Put the used razors back inside their original envelopes, but don’t look at the back of the envelope until you’re done shaving with both razors and made a written guess as to which one was which.

Sorry, but the part about CDs is manifest nonsense, and consequently casts great suspicion on all the rest.

Mr. Kennedy,

:dubious: Interesting post. You make a statement that publically calls me a liar and offer nothing to back up your claim.

Where is your proof? Please show us or describe the research you have done or at least point to the research that proves your opinion.

I’ve done blind testing of treated vs. untreated CD’s with the Chicago Audio Society (www.chicagoaudio.org ). The test is described on my web site. There were about 30 other people in the room and everyone of them selected the treated CD as being superior. I treat CD’s for stereo equipment manufacturers. These are people who know about sound.

Frederick Diekman

Warbird,

Since CD’s are digital music, any treating process is not going to change the sound, since it will still be the same bits on the disk. The only way it could improve the sound is if there was a problem with the CD playback before treatment.

I can’t find anything about your test methodology on that website, but unless you can explain how your treatment is going to change the sound, I and many others will be very suspicious about your claims.

I dislike where this is going, but cannot fault the questions. The point I’m interested in is: There are aspects to cryo-treating mentioned that are not in question (disk brake longevity, changes in metal fatigue behavior). Lumping the whole technology in with something as emotionally loaded as high-end audio impressions is unfortunate and diminishes the other applications.

Does not make sense. You duplicate the effects of constant heating and room temperature by freezing? Freezing far below the normal level ,but no heating. I do not get it.
PS Tensile strength refers to the point where it snaps or deforms.