I think there can be offensive appropriation. But it is now too often drowned out by throwing the term at anything or anyone we don’t like.
There was a long thread on this board about whether Miley Cyrus was engaged in offensive cultural appropriation because she twerked in a video and had POC as backup dancers. Seriously. We did that.
Because that’d be appropriation of Nazi culture. In any case, these discussions always come down to the distinction that cultural appropriation is fine when it is done to whites in Western nations, but bad when done to other ethnicities or other nations. Because whitey is born into a unique historic collective guilt that’s passed down through the generations like the Original Sin, which means only people in this class can be guilty of such racist transgressions. It’s the White Man’s Burden. Thus (from the latest thread on the subject), Thor cartoons and movies made in the USA (which is anything but celebration) is fine; Lego characters from Maori history is bad.
All I can do is speak for myself.
Are you talking about cultural appropriation?
What is unpleasant?
The best thing one can do about Hitler is to ridicule and lampoon, that includes dressing as him when occasion arises.
Maybe this is true to some extent, but I would argue that it is more dependent on the person doing the appropriation rather than the culture being appropriated. Paul Simon does it, no problem (we like him!). MIA does it, no problem, she isn’t white (and we like her!).
Again, cultural appropriation has to do with respect.
Like monstro said, there are extremists who will be bothered by anything, but many people will be accepting of others using elements of their culture if they find it is done respectfully.
Paul Simon did a beautiful job in Graceland, and the people who sang there are credited, and they were original South African singers and groups, who suffered apartheid themselves. It would’ve been different had he done the album without them, or without crediting them.
MIA uses elements of the culture she grew up and identifies with, so she cannot appropriate what she is (she may misrepresent it). Also, in videos that I’ve seen that use elements from other cultures, it is either with some respect (or at least nor mockery), or even an attempt at veiled (hah) criticism.
Marvell does it. Lego does it. The Tokyo Philharmonic Orchestra does it. Elvis Presley did it. Miles Cyrus did it. Madonna did it. Taylor Swift did it. But I’m not really on top of who we like and who we dislike.
Well let me tell you that dressing Thor up as a fucking girl is not respectful, yet it was celebrated as a big thing by a lot of exactly the same progressives who are likely to go on about cultural appropriation. And let’s not even get started on the silly Japanese Ragnarok anime series which seems like a cross-product of My Little Pony and Hello Kitty.
The usual objection to the Mikado isn’t that White actors play Japanese characters, it’s that they usually do so in yellowface blatant enough to make Micky Rooney in B@T seem culturally sensitive.
And define “harm” - by the token you seem to be using, there’s “no harm” in yelling “Nigger” at a Black person, either.
But what are you basing this on? Have you been in this situation before? We can all spin heroic stories of how noble we would act in situations we never have to confront, but that doesn’t mean much.
I’m sure that if I were in Nazi Germany I would have hidden dozens of families. I’m sure that if I were on the Titanic, I would have calmly conducted an evacuation. I’m sure that if I were lost in the woods, I’d never wander aimlessly.
Yes, and in its worst forms it is unpleasant to be around.
+1000.
What am I basing my personal worldview on? my personal worldview…what else am I supposed to do?
Certainly I’ve been in situations where my own cultural background has been mocked though I suspect that whatever example I give will not be acceptable to you.
Heroic stories? how did we arrive at saving holocaust-threatened people?
I don’t claim any great heroics on my part, merely that I’m not precious about my own cultural baggage and others can feel free to do what they want with it, and I’ll do the same. If there’s no malice and no intention to hurt then it really shouldn’t be a big issue.
What would cultural appropriation “in its worst forms” actually be?
Since identity is trivial, a reality check that makes them mad is a healthy learning experience.
Cultural appropriation is the biggest non-issue that ever was. Given the definition on wikipedia:
I don’t see how any reasonable thinking person can agree that the adoption of elements of one culture by members of a different culture is a bad thing.
This is the kind of cultural appropriation I can understand as negative. If you would make fun of a Black woman for her hairstyle, call her trashy for the “bling” on her shirt, say she’s a bitch because of her long intricately painted nails…and then wear your hair, shirt, or nails exactly like that and be celebrated by your White friends as fashion forward and daring, yet you’re all still calling *her *a trashy bitch nigger…THAT is cultural appropriation. The exact cultural signifiers that you use to keep her in the oppressed underclass elevate you in the dominant overclass. That’s got to be…that’s got to be fucking infuriating, that does. That goes beyond cultural exchange. That’s cultural rape.
But I also agree that sometimes people take their sensitivity too far. Not every form of appreciation of elements of another’s culture is appropriation, or offensive.
How often does a white person adopt black cultural norms or fashions and actually dislike black people though? And vice versa? For example, Rachel Dolezal was accused of “cultural appropriation”. She did not hate black people, quite the opposite.
If you’re respectful–which to me would include understanding the meaning and only applying it in a sincere way–that’s not appropriation at all. That’s just culture. People assimilating new elements into their own cultural practice, or themselves into a new one, isn’t any kind of abuse; that’s part of what culture is, how it’s supposed to work.
Cultural appropriation means taking elements out of their meaning context. Without respect, without understanding, without sincerity.
Not at all. I can easily imagine an obnoxious, offensive cultural appropriation of white Westerners. It just doesn’t seem to actually happen much.
Isn’t this coming at it kinda late? Doesn’t the appropriation here start with (male) Thor being made into a “superhero” cartoon in the first place?
Good point. Thanks for the question. I don’t think that’s the *only *form of cultural appropriation, just the easiest to see. Entertainment is where you see a lot of that particular flavor of cultural appropriation, and where it’s most often called out. But I’ve seen it in private life as well.
I don’t think it’s always as literal as that. Being as I run in Neopagan circles, and we don’t have any culture of our own, really, but borrow bits and pieces from everyone, it’s a big issue that’s talked about a lot. I think that one can accidentally appropriate, or personally have no ill feelings about the culture while still benefiting disproportionately from the wearing/doing of the thing. One simple example, using myself: a few years ago, I bought a bunch of caftans at a discount store. I love them. They’re comfortable, they’re lightweight, they feel like I’m wearing nothing. I do not wear them outside the home any more, unless I’m camping at a Pagan festival. They’re too much associated with the Black community that surrounds me. I got an insane number of compliments on them whenever I wore them out…while to the Black women who also wear them, they’re neutral to negatively viewed. Don’t get me wrong, I love compliments! I still love my caftans! But the level of praise I got for wearing the same garment that elicits sighs and rolled eyes from cashiers when worn by someone with brown skin made me profoundly uncomfortable. It made me realize that, while I was shopping for comfort with no hatred of Black women in my heart, I was still engaging in cultural appropriation, because I don’t get to decide how *other *people view it.
Rachel Dolezal literally benefited from her adoption of Black cultural identification, in that she got a college degree and a job by pretending to be Black, while she still grew up with the cultural benefits of being White. And then she lied about it. That’s what pissed people off about her. Hers was not a simple case of cultural appropriation. She is…special.
Of course. This is just the last iteration. Next they’ll have him a fat transgender brony Thor.