Curious situation...[job dismissal]

In My Humble Opinion
1

Posting to get some feedback from people who are, perhaps, experienced or otherwise knowledgeable in the area…

I was recently let go from my previous employer; it was not for misconduct, etc.

So, I filed for unemployment to keep me afloat 'til I can find a new job. My former employer responded to notification of my claim by lying, saying that I quit voluntarily and was not let go. They had nothing but verbal claims to support this.

I stated I was let go and provided proof in the form of emails discussing work performed, and payment for it that took place almost 2 weeks after the date they said I’d quit.

I was ultimately awarded the unemployment, having provided proof that I was released due to no misconduct on my part.

What I find funny, though, is that in their written rebuttal to my claim, they give information that would seem like evidence in trying to prove I was released for misconduct (which was all nonsense anyway). Almost like they were “trying plan B”, since I’d already proven I didn’t quit voluntarily.

However, I don’t think they can change their claim like that.

For example, I don’t think a situation like this would fly:
Employer: He quit.
Me: No, I didn’t. I was released, and here’s proof.
Employer: Okay, we released him, and here’s some reasons why…

I’m pretty sure they’d be held to their original claim (that I’d quit) and couldn’t change it after the fact.

What, in your opinion(s), are the odds of the employer trying to appeal it, given the circumstances? And, how much weight does my winning this first “round” carry in the appeal decision if they decide to? It would seem to me that the onus is on them at this point.

Personally, were I in their position, having already shot myself in the foot and been proven wrong on my first claim, I wouldn’t bother.

Curious what others think, though.

2

I would say the odds are 0% that they’ll appeal it. Unscrupulous employers try both stock methods as a knee-jerk reaction more than anything else - they’re not really thinking about their odds of succeeding in the first place. It’s kind of like a kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar who says “What cookie jar?” or “Ha, ha, I thought this was the refrigerator.”

The smart employers will have already documented reasons of misconduct they can claim were a reason for the dismissal. After all, even good employers slip up now and then. You’ll see things like “Employee was fired for continued tardiness - he was five minutes late to work last month and the month before and was a whole hour late, once, back in 1998.” They’ve created their story ahead of time, will stick to it, and are more likely to try an appeal (though, even then, they probably won’t push for an appeal).

3

We are seeing this sort of thing a lot. The old boss tells the attorney to appeal it. (You see, bosses as a rule become bosses because they are bossy, not because they are smart, Peter Principle or some such.) He does because that is his job. Boss eventually figures out s/he is a fool and gives up.

4

Thanks for your feedback so far.

Yeah, I’m thinking they sent in their written rebuttal as sort of a “let’s throw some stuff in there and see if it works” type of deal. But then again, you never know.

Also, like I touched on in my first post, I think they already shot themselves in the foot from the start by saying I quit, and having no written documentation - no forms with my signature - proving it. Just their say-so. However, I have documentation proving that I continued to do work, and was paid for it, beyond the date that he claims I quit.

So they really have no leg to stand on… the only thing that makes me think they might try anyway is because, frankly, they’re not the smartest people, so they might still think they have a chance to reverse it.

I’ve read, though, that statistically the majority of cases that are appealed aren’t reversed… I think it was less than 1/3 of appeals succeed in reversing the decision.

Ah well. If they do they do… I’d just rather not have to deal with them anymore, to be honest, so I’m hoping they don’t.

5

There are some HR people and management who fight every single unemployment claim to the death and take pride at never losing one. However, those folks would have their ducks in a row a lot more than these people seem to. From what you’ve described, they have not made a strong case.

One thing that can happen (at least in some states) is that the state can make a determination to pay you, but not hold it against the employer to determine their UI rate. Unless the employer is just crazy vindictive or truly in the right and steaming mad, they will direct their fight toward not having their rates increased and really don’t care if you get paid or not. That is how some borderline cases get resolved.

6

Yeah… knowing my former boss at least as well as I believe I know him, I would think he’s just wanting to avoid the increase in his tax rate. To be honest, I didn’t expect him to challenge my claim; naive, I guess, seeing as how I’ve heard most companies will try to refuse it by default, especially in today’s economy.

I’m curious now, though, as to how determined he is to fight it and/or if he’ll appeal it, or just let it go. He has about 10 days to file one, so I guess we’ll see.

Makes me wonder, though, how much would a single benefits claim increase an employer’s rate? I figure it’s either enough to make them fight it the way they do… Or any increase isn’t that drastic, but it’s just a means of damage control to fight them. ie: the more they successfully refuse, the more “wiggle room” they have for those that really do deserve to collect. Or, maybe it’s a matter of pride or principle… who knows.

7

I’ve been on both sides of the appeal process.

Jan 2008, I was fired under false pretenses. I filed for unemployment and documented everything I had ahead of time proving the falseness of their charges, on the unemployment filing. Of course, they contested the unemployment claim and stated that I was fired for cause. The final ruling was that I did not intentionally violate their policies and therefore, was eligible for unemployment. This ruling pretty much closed the door on any further appeals on their part. I had the physical proof they were lying. They had…nada.
About a year and a half earlier, I had to sit in on an appeal at a previous employer. I was working Armored and my partner went on vacation. New Guy was assigned to drive for me for the week. New Guy nearly killed ran a red light into cross traffic (stopping only because I was screaming bloody murder), turned onto the light rail tracks twice (once with an oncoming train about 200 feet away), nearly backed into a cop car and finally, clipped a parked vehicle, taking off it’s side mirror. And kept right on going. (Hit and Run) I reported it, he did not. Well, he was under probation, so he was fired.

About a month or so later, he filed for unemployment. Denied, fired for cause. Appealed. I sat in on the appeal hearing to explain everything that had happened that week, because I was the only witness. New Guy was too stupid to have a lawyer, and his big defense was “I didn’t think it was a big deal” (repeated endlessly). Pretty straight forward admission of guilt. His second big defense was to claim that I’d been screaming at him all week. (True, when I wave you forward to allow a cop car to pass behind you, and when he starts to do so you throw it in reverse and start rolling backwards, I might have a problem with it. I also have problems with you going 35mph in a 30 zone while showing no sign of paying any attention to the fact that the light you’re about to go through turned red a while ago and cross traffic is in the intersection. 20,000 pound truck at 35mph into the side of a car means DEAD PEOPLE. A mere one block from the court house that you’ll be tried for Criminal Vehicular Homicide in.)

Of course, he lost, and was denied unemployment.

Sounds like you’re closer to the first example above, where I had proof that they were full of shit. They got nothing, you’ve shown they got nothing, and it’s not going to go any further. Odds are pretty high they won’t appeal any further, or they’ll be shot down if they do.

8

Since the OP is asking for opinions, this may be better suited for IMHO than GQ.

I have also edited the title to make the subject clearer.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

9

Unless they’re letting a LOT of people go, it’s hard to imagine the tax rate will really jump all that much. I’ve posted this elsewhere on the Dope, but last year we let our nanny go after a number of years. As we’d been doing everything on the up-and-up, she was eligible for unemployment. I later got a notice of my tax rate change, and frankly it wasn’t all that much.

Of course, the most I’ve ever paid in a single year is 40 bucks for the employee (and it’s based only on the first 8,000 of the salary anyway); I think if I were to hire a nanny this year, my annual total might go from 25 bucks a year to 30 bucks, or somewhere in that ballpark.

Really, it hardly seems worth it to the company to fight it.

10

Yeah, the more I think about it, the less likely it seems…

It’s pretty much a dead horse for them. But who knows… they might think they’ve still got a case or some ace card to pull or something.

Thanks, all, for the added replies.

I’ll let you know if anything more comes of it.

11

When I worked in H/R we had a standard policy to dispute every claim. I hated that espeically, but that was company dictate.

One thing that I hated about our H/R director she would have people sign things on their last day saying the voluntarly left. If you read it and said “I didn’t quit,” she say “ooops,” and giggle and send you on your way.

So it’s not unusual for an employer to dispute every claim.

On the flip side, it’s not always unusual for an employer not to bother fighting any claims, even if you quit. So I say always file even if you quit, they may not dispute it.

In terms of appeals you have to check with state laws, some states your ex-employer has up to two years to appeal, so you could wind up having to repay money

12

When you say dispute, do you mean the counter to the initial claim? Or, to follow-through with appeals after the initial decision is made?

Either way, they have about 9 days now to file an appeal and have it accepted as-is. After that, they need to file one and provide a sufficient reason why they missed the deadline.

I’m really hoping they don’t bother with an appeal. They’ve already lost the first round; they have to - or should - realize they don’t have a case here. They said I quit, I’ve already proven I didn’t. I’d just like to avoid the aggravation of prolonging a fruitless process, be done with it and move on. Guess I’ll know by the end of the month.

13

Here’s a new question that just came to mind, out of curiosity (and because no one else I know personally knows for sure). I’m not very learned in legal stuff, so I’m not sure.

I decided to look up the specific law cited in the determination of my claim. It deals with being discharged from one’s job due to misconduct at their work.

However, under that particular law, their findings were that I was not discharged due to misconduct on my part and so I do qualify to collect benefits, so long as I meet all other requirements.

Now… Here’s what I’m curious of.

Since my former employer stated that I quit voluntarily in their initial rebuttal, are they held to proving that claim in any possible appeals?

Or, because the specific law was cited in the decision, regarding discharge due to misconduct, are they now able to come back and attempt to prove that there was misconduct, even though it goes against their original claim?

In other words, can they change their position after the fact? For example, “Well, we said he quit voluntarily, but since the decision is that he wasn’t let go due to misconduct… we can try to prove he was”.

Or… is the decision more a way of saying, “you said he quit voluntarily, but we’ve found that the real reason was that he was let go, due to no fault of his own”, and my former employer would have to sufficiently prove I wasn’t discharged, but quit voluntarily, since that was their original claim.

I touched on this in an earlier post, but I don’t think it’s been addressed directly in any replies yet; at least not that I’ve noticed.