Joni was writing first rate material from say 22 years old. When she was TS age she was making Blue. Have you ever heard it?
Laura Nyro wrote her first album, very well respected for composition, at 18 or 19. Then she changed the world of songwriting immediately after.
TS is 26 or 27. Plenty old in pop. She’s been at it for at least 13 years. Most people who I love aren’t that great after 13 years. She’s not a teenager in the slightest. It’s not the subject matter, it’s the repetition.
Slagging Taylor Swift for writing love/relationship songs is silly.
Trying to dismiss her as not comparable to Joni Mitchell is silly. That’s like comparing Bob Dylan and Smokey Robinson. Just stop.
The more I read this thread, the more I want to defend the music of today. Music is just fine, thank you. Plenty of crap, but plenty of quality if you choose to look for it.
Nonsequiter anyone? Maybe you meant to say comparing Bob Dylan to TS? Work on those analogies.
Bob Dylan and Smokey Robinson (?) are Joni’s peers chronologically and talent-wise. but beyond that, get serious.
Comparing TS to Joni is very much the same as comparing TS to Bob Dylan or Smokey… Think about it.
You miss the point, a somewhat obvious one. I’ve seen that someplace before.
I choose not to chase you and will leave it at that. Bye.
Nope, actually I hung with, listened to and enjoyed music of all genres through the decades. It’s only been the last 7 or 8 years that music has abandoned musicianship and as a result I’ve largely abandoned it. On the radio these day I mostly listen to metal stations because I don’t really like listening to typical oldies music of the sort you think I’m stuck on.
Regarding Taylor Swift, it wasn’t my original intention to create a debate on her talents. But as I’ve said, I consider her a middling talent and to me it’s a sad commentary on today’s pop music world that she’s considered to be so great. I don’t care at all about the fact she sings so many songs on the same topic. I just don’t think she’s all that as a songwriter regardless of the subject, and I think she’s a mid-level talent as a singer. This isn’t to say I don’t like her, I do. She’s gorgeous, stylish, generous and does a lot in the way of donations to charities and gives of herself to help others. It’s just that as I’ve said, I don’t think she’s really all that as a singer/songwriter.
heh it took me 15 years to figure out that the song I liked that only ever played twice on the radio was regret by new order… the only part I remotely remembered the line about a place of my own and talking on the telephone
Our radio station here was the proto clear channel/ I heart radio it was all on a 8 hour tape that would repeat 3 or 4 times a day and never said what the name of the song was …
It came on Pandora and I was like woah …
I heart radio was clear channel …
Consider it differently. Imagine your, or my, opinions don’t matter. Taylor has become a focal point of this thread because she perfectly encapsulates it.
Back to my point: in 7 years, she will have 20 years as a huge pop cultural presence. She will have won every award many times over, end up getting one of those Kennedy Center Honors, and rank as one of the best selling artists as well.
In addition, she’ll be lauded as a Female Empowerment icon. Running her own brand, transitioning triumphantly from Country to Pop, standing up to Kanye, Apple - freakin’ Apple! - and YouTube and owning the narrative everytime. This generation has every claim to viewing her as we view our Female Icon heroes.
Okay, some folks don’t think she’s good. So?
I haven’t listened to top-40 pop music since the day I heard “unnnhhhh, unnnnhhh” as part of a lyric.
I do listen to 92.5 in Boston (an independent station) and WERS 88.9, the Emerson College station, both of which play a mix of music. I’ve heard some indie pop and indie rock bands I really enjoy and wouldn’t have heard otherwise.
It’s not just you. But we’re all getting older.
They’re getting older, too.
I take it you didn’t watch the ADoseOfBuckley videos about TS “22”? He clearly explains what is wrong with that song - and that it is again about some sort of breakup/unfulfilled longins/whatever. I didn’t say (in that quite) that they were all exactly the same - however, you kind of get the general gist about what she’s singing about (the same sort of subject).
And as for “Shake It Off”, that was mentioned in the Ten Worst Songs of 2014 video:
Yep, ADoB says that Taylor Swift “writes too many songs about your dates” (comment aimed at TS) - then cuts to that big long list that I wrote on the previous page (only showing the stuff up to 2011, but commenting that it still hasn’t got any better).
And he’s right - the stuff that she’s produced hasn’t got much better from 2011 to 2015. In fact, the latest song, “Wildest Dreams”, well guess what that’s about (no prizes for guessing… see spoiler for link to lyrics/what the song is about)
Oh well. Make that no.17 then :smack:
This. These are the top 5 songs from the billboard hot 100 for this week in July over the past decades:
This week in 1966
[ol]
[li]Paperback Writer - The Beatles[/li][li]Red Rubber Ball - The Cyrkle[/li][li]Strangers in the Night - Frank Sinatra[/li][li]Hanky Panky - Tommy James and the Shondells[/li][li]You Don’t Have to Say You Love Me - Dusty Springfield[/li][/ol]
1976
[ol]
[li]Afternoon Delight - Starland Vocal Band[/li][li]Kiss and Say Goodbye - The Manhattans[/li][li]I’ll Be Good to You - The Brothers Johnson[/li][li]Shop Around - Captain & Tennille[/li][li]More, More, More Pt.1 - Andrea True Connection[/li][/ol]
1986
[ol]
[li]Holding Back the Years - Simply Red[/li][li]Invisible Touch - Genesis[/li][li]There’ll Be Sad Songs - Billy Ocean[/li][li]Nasty - Janet Jackson[/li][li]Who’s Johnny (“Short Circuit” Theme) - El DeBarge[/li][/ol]
1996
[ol]
[li]How Do U Want It/California Love - 2Pac Featuring KC and JoJo[/li][li]You’re Makin’ Me High/Let It Flow - Toni Braxton[/li][li]Tha Crossroads - Bone Thugs-N-Harmony[/li][li]Give Me One Reason - Tracy Chapman[/li][li]Macarena (Bayside Boys Mix) - Los Del Rio[/li][/ol]
2006
[ol]
[li]Promiscuous - Nelly Furtado Featuring Timbaland[/li][li]Hips Don’t Lie - Shakira[/li][li]Crazy - Gnarls Barkley[/li][li]Me & U - Cassie[/li][li]It’s Goin’ Down - Yung Joc[/li][/ol]
Today -
[ol]
[li]One Dance - Drake featuring WizKid & Kyla[/li][li]Can’t Stop the Feeling! - Justin Timberlake[/li][li]Don’t Let Me Down - The Chainsmokers featuring Daya[/li][li]Panda - Desiigner[/li][li]This is What You Came For - Calvin Harris featuring Rihanna[/li][/ol]
With the exception of 1966, the songs from today as a group are not appreciably worse than those of any of the other decades.
Continuation… as I think it is relevant!
Now let’s move on Taylor Swift - Style:
Lyrics Link: Taylor Swift - Style - Directlyrics
Song Overview:
More to do with failed relationships, then! (As Taylor Swift and Harry Styles are no longer together.) Make that no. 18!
And Blank Space?
Yawn… I’m getting bored… Where is the topic variety? No. 19!
And with that, I give up.
You’re welcome to think her subject matter is tedious. Doesn’t change her critical and commercial success.
You sound like the reason Sir Paul wrote Silly Love Songs.
No, why the fuck would I want to, I already know what Taylor Swift herself said about it.
Didn’t watch - did it talk about how the song is specifically about addressing the fact that every little part of her life gets (wrongly) dissected by outsiders?
‘Some of the things I write about on a song like “Blank Space” are satire’ - Taylor Swift.
Love how you look at a song that’s specifically *making fun of *the “Taylor only writes songs about boys” narrative, and … make it fit that narrative. Like Taylor, I find that “kind of hilarious.”
I’m far from an expert on any kind of music, much less pop music. But one thing I appreciate about Swift is her comedic chops, in videos like “Shake it Off” and “Never (Getting Back Together)”. She’s got a flair for a particular style of physical comedy, and I’d love to see her explore it more.
Yes, there’s no question that she’s a huge star, savvy, garners much in the way of acclaim and probably will have the future you describe. And that’s perfectly fine with me as far as she, as a person, goes. I’m really not criticizing her as a person. My complaint is that I feel she’s not really all that great a talent and if music nowadays hadn’t gone so far downhill she wouldn’t be getting all the acclaim she’s getting.
And yes, you’re right that it really doesn’t matter if some of us don’t like her music (actually I do, but in the same sort of way I used to like some of the more lightweight tunes of previous eras). But at least I’m in good company. I asked the guy I mentioned earlier, the one who until recently owned a recording studio, about her and his opinion is that she couldn’t even have gotten signed back in the 60s or 70s.
But then I’m not in good company at the same time since you don’t agree. 
I do appreciate your input though and the different perspectives it brings to bear on these kinds of issues.
When it comes to the Big Question, is Music worse? IMHO, I have come to feel it is better for me to ask the question, “Assuming Music is Okay, what’s changed?” Music has always occupied a big, important part in Human’s lives. Yes, the 50’-80’s/early 90’s were a time when Music’s cultural importance was at a higher level, and it’s cultural high points (and guitar centered-ness, for a lot of it) stand out more, but the level of Human talent and output, variety and accessibility of Music remain important in our lives.
I don’t listen to Taylor Swift but hear her all the time in the course of a day. She may not be my taste, but jeez, she has a career that is objectively top-tier successful. I try to start from there.
You claim that TS doesn’t come near to stacking up with, among others, Aretha Franklin. Now Aretha is a great, great singer and likely a better singing talent than TS. However, Franklin didn’t:
TS is clearly the better artist in all those areas. It’s ok to not like modern music; just don’t pretend that music that has passed you by is objectively worse.
I’ll grant you that when it comes to singer/songwriters, TS is better at being a singer/songwriter than those in the 60s and 70s who weren’t. 
But my argument, first of all, is that most of TS’ acclaim is a result of today’s Top 40 musical, production and talent standards being so low. And secondly, while I did use female singers of the 60s and 70s to contrast with TS’ vocal abilities, I also listed a few female singer/songwriters I felt were superior to her as well, people such as Joni Mitchell, Laura Nero, Carole King, etc. But my complaints, based on musical standards as a whole, aren’t limited only to females. Thus if you want to talk about singer/songwriter talent of that era vs. that of TS today, then in addition to the female singer/songwriters I just mentioned, look at Elton John’s output and the music he began cranking out in the early seventies while still in his early twenties. The Eagles. Crosby, Stills & Nash, etc., etc., etc. I could come up with a list of dozens but you get the point. In terms of musical complexity, melody, and just plain old musicianship, TS’s songwriting can’t hold a candle to any of that.
Again I feel compelled to say I don’t have anything against Taylor Swift. She seems to be a good person in her personal life and tons of people enjoy her music. I just regret that popular Top 40 style music standards have degraded to the point that her work is considered outstanding.
I think the problem is that at heart you’re just basically a nice, positive-thinking kind of guy who looks for the good in everything. 