Custers Last Stand

We have this TV programme in the UK Battlefield Surgeons and these guys go around digging and what have you at old battlefields and then tell us what actually happened.

I DON’T WANNA KNOW!!

This week they proved that there was no Custers Last Stand and that the 7th cavalry fled in a mad panic and were shot down by the Sioux/Cheyenne who incidentally were all armed with the Springfield Repeating Rifle and the 7th cavalry only had single shot rifles.

This isn’t the way I remember it!, Custer (or Errol Flynn) was the last to fall, firing his revolvers as he fell on Last Stand Hill not in some pokey little ravine as these bloody experts tell us.

For Gods sake leave us something to believe in.

What next? The guys at The Alamo also panicked??

What did you watch it for, if you “didn’t want to know”? :dubious:

We should always strive to know the truth of historical events. History is solid and real, and it may be very ugly more often than not, but it’s far more important than insipid sanctimonious Hollywoodized twaddle (anyone know when the Saving Private Jessica Lynch movie comes out btw?) because it’s TRUE.

I watched that same program and found it absolutely fascinating. It was hard to credit that it was only in recent years that some guys had finally bothered to sweep a few metal detectors over such a famous battlefield.

I watched it because I found it fascinating also, this doesn’t mean I have to like it though.:smiley: :stuck_out_tongue:

Custer was an idiot and a coward who ignored sound advice and led his troops to massacre. Why would anyone want to believe in his heroism?

Yeah but Eroll Flynn had a big wang or so we are told.

And an incredible egomaniac, and a pretentious dandy. Last in his class at West Point. Sorry spogga

SPOGGA, I know you’re over on the other side of the pond, so you quite probably won’t know what I’m talking about, but as far as Americans are concerned, IMO if you can wrap your mind around the truth of Wounded Knee you should be able to deal with the truth of the Battle of the Little Big Horn.

Custer was a vainglorious over-confident grandstander seeking to repair his own career. He marched his men to the point of exhaustion, disobeyed at least two direct orders, and attacked a Native camp with no real provocation and with no knowledge as to the size of the camp or the number of warriors in it. All this in the context of a larger Federal attempt to push the Natives out of the Black Hills (because gold had been found there) and break the Fort Laramie treaty (which gave the Black Hills to the Sioux – which, while not Custer’s fault – helps illuminate the anger of the Natives he so rashly attacked. If it is ever appropriate to say that someone richly deserved to be massacred, then go ahead and say it of Custer.

But it gravels, don’t it? Heck! Next they’ll be telling us Jesse James wasn’t a hero either! Oh, wait . . . .

Well, around 70 of the 250 defenders DID go over the walls and attempted to flee…

Hey EVERYONE: Just 'cos I 'm from Merrie Englande doesn’t mean that I am only familiar with my own countries history, heck I’m upset here.
I like the US, always have, and because of this liking have read a great deal about your country and like to think that whilst my knowledge will not be as great as yours it isn’t to bad…I’m still learning y’all (see?!)

OK so Custer was a dipstick, I can handle that: it’s just that I wish sometimes that historians would keep certain facts to themselves but then that defeats the whole object of being an historian doesn’t it?

Jesse James not a hero??? Oh c’mon now you really are pushing your luck :smiley:

Having just been to Little Bighorn National Monument, one thing I learned is that it’s very easy to categorize people when you have 100+ years of hindsight. These people were living in times so very different than us, it’s really impossible to judge them. Custer may have been an idiot, a coward, a dipstick–but he was a product of his times, and the events that led to that day in 1876 were driven by factors much greater than any one person.

Let me suggest that George A. Custer, Lieutenant Colonel, 7th Cavalry, Brevet Major General, was the product of his time and an officer not unlike George Patton, who knew no way to fight except straight ahead at a gallop. He knew no way to gain the allegence of men under his command except to demonstrate courage in combat–which he surely did as a brigade and division commander during the Civil War. He is primarily regarded as a fool because he lost the fight on the Little Big Horn, and I suspect the mood of the times after our loss of confidence in generals on horses as a consequence of , first, World War One, and, second, especially in the United States, the experience of Vietnam. None the less in his own time, and really up until the Little Big Man book, he was regarded in the popular imagination as a noble hero.

The irony (if this is the right word) is that the tactic that failed at the Little Big Horn had worked at the Washita. The other irony is that Custer’s success at the Washita generated a split among his junior officers that may have contributed to the hero worship and the vehemence of the low opinion now reflected in this thread. The airing in the controversy within the regiment was long suppressed because Mrs. Custer lived well into the 20th Century. Many of the surviving officers were not willing to publicly criticize the General as long as his widow was still around. As things turned out Mrs. Custer outlived most of the survivors. Also, Mrs. Custer devoted her life to being a press flack for the memory and reputation of her beloved husband.

The ultimate irony is that the bones in Custer’s grave at the Military Academy may not be his. His remains are probably in the mass grave on the ridge where he and the officers and men of five companies died in the summer of 1876. But, where can a commander lie with more honor that among the dead of his command?

The camp, at Washita, was not nearly the size of Little Big Horn. Most of the natives killed, at Washita, were women and children. The camp, at Little Big Horn, contained around 1,500 WARRIORS.

With all due respect, SPAV, I’m not seeing the irony. The “tactic” that worked at Washita was to ride right up and attack a Native settlement. The fact that it didn’t work at Little Big Horn is entirely attributable to Custer’s ignorance of the size of the encampment he intended to attack – or, more specifically, the number of warriors in it, which my source puts at “at least 2,000.” (Malone, et al., Montana: A History Of Two Centuries at 131.) The same source notes that Custer’s “terrified” scouts warned him that the camp was too big, but he ignored them, out of over-confidence in his own men or because the scouts were themselves Native and therefore ‘unreliable.’

To attack an enemy of unknown size, strength, and armament is not irony, it’s stupidity. I am not demonizing Custer. He was indeed a Civil War hero who was generally acknowledged to be both brave and capable. But he had been removed from command by Grant and only grudgingly given back that command for the pursuit of the Sioux and Cheyenne, and it seems likely that his rashness was motivated at least in part by glory-seeking to rehabilitate his career. I’m not lecturing you as I assume you know this, but rather further amplifying the story for others who might be interested.

SPOGGA, I didn’t mean to imply that you don’t know much 'bout U.S. history. But a lot of Europeans or Brits who might know about the Battle of the Little Big Horn (a/k/a “Custer’s Last Stand”) might not know about Wounded Knee or Washita. If you did, I’d be very impressed.

There has been a fair amount of argument about the number of fighting men in the encampment on the Little Big Horn. What has not been argued about is that Custer, based on reports from the Reservation Agents, expected to encounter not more than the 800 or so fighting men that were with the Sioux bands that never had gone into the reservations, the permanent roamers. What Custer did not expect was that the size of the hostile fighting force had been doubled or tripled by young men who left the reservations when the grass greened in the spring to make meat or to be in on the big fight that was anticipated. For any number of reasons the departures from the reservations had not been reported.

Custer’s scouts, notably Bloody Knife, had told him that the village was much bigger than he thought but Custer seemed to have become fixed on the 800 fighting men number. He was so fixed on the idea that he would face only the permanent roamers that he identified the temporary shelters built by the young men who had no lodge or family as dog houses. Custer was justified in thinking that his regiment of some 700 officers and men could easily take on 800 Hostiles. A divided command taking on from 1500 to 2400 Hostiles was a tougher proposition.

As far as the Washita goes, the tactic was not just to just go in at a gallop with bugles blowing. At Washita Custer divided his command into separate detachments and attacked simultaneously from several directions. When he did the same thing at the Little Big Horn his separate detachments were beyond supporting distance of each other. As a consequence Major Reno’s detachment and Custer’s detachment both fought their fight on their own and without the support of the rest of the regiment. Custer’s detachment was, as we all know, wiped out. Major Reno’s detachment might well have been wiped out, too, if it had not been joined by Captain Benteen’s detachment and by the company escorting the pack train.

Had Custer kept his regiment together or the parts within supporting distance of each other, the attack might well have been successful.

SG, if I dismiss credible first-hand reports that a dark warehouse is full of armed drug dealers because I’ve “fixated” on the idea that the only one in there is an unarmed grandma, I may be “justified” in thinking I can take on one unarmed grandma, but my ability in that hypothetical, entirely unrealistic situation is worth jack.

Custer relied on the reports of reservation agents who were not that, meaning the reports were at the least a bit dated. He rejected the reports of his own scouts who were right there, went and look, came back and told him, emphatically, “bad idea.” At the very least, the conflicting reports created a conflict about the size of the force in front of him, which itself should have been enough to dictate caution, not bravado. The fact that he went ahead anyway means he was dismissing the reports of his own scouts entirely, and out of hand.

And the question, of course, is why. And, of course, no one really knows. But three good guesses are: (1) his personal agenda to rehabilitate his career*; (2) his general distrust of Natives (like his scouts) as opposed to whites (like most of the rez agents); and (3) his total underestimation of Native fighting ability, based on his past experiences, including Washita.

*Note that I am not saying he consciously put his men in such terrible danger just for personal glory, but the consideration of what he might gain in the event of a decisive public victory might have disinclined him to believe reports inconsistent with that desired outcome.

Errata: "Custer relied ont he reports of reservation agents who were not there . . . ", “went and looked”.

I don’t see where you get the coward part, Chefguy. Custer had a lot of faults, as several posters have stated above, but cowardice doesn’t seem to be one of them.

Just a couple points without becoming too adversarial about the whole thing.

In 1875 an order had gone out for all Northern Plains Indians to report into the reservations in Nebraska and (what is now) South Dakota, on pain of being regarded as at war with the United States. The edict is somewhat reminiscent of the orders that went out to the Highland Clans from King Billy in 1689 that resulted in the Glencoe Massacre. The next spring three columns set out to enforce the reservation order. An infantry and cavalry force set out from Fort D.A. Russell (Cheyenne, Wyoming) led by George Crook. An other infantry and cavalry force left Fort Shaw, north of Helena, Montana, commanded by Colonel John Gibbon (who had an enviable reputation from the Civil War as a brigade and division commander) and a third force, the 7th Cavalry Regiment under its Lieutenant Colonel, Brevet Major General Custer, and accompanied by Brigadier General Alfred Terry, the overall commander, marched from Fort Abraham Lincoln at Bismarck North Dakota. The objective was to break up an expected concentration of non-reservation Sioux in the Powder River country south of the Yellowstone River in southeast Montana. The Gibbon and Terry-Custer forces met in early June, 1876, at the mouth of Rosebud Creek on the Yellowstone while the Crook force was still coming up from the south.

A ten day scout by the 7th Cavalry’s second in command, Major Marcus Reno, and about half the regiment showed that there were no Indian encampments along the Powder River, the middle stretch of the Tongue River or in the lower end of Rosebud Creek. Reno did fine a fresh trail going up the Rosebud but he did not follow. That is just as well since on June 17, while Reno was in the lower Rosebud, Crook"s column was attacked by Crazy Horse’s band of Sioux with some Cheyenne on the upper Rosebud. The attack did not overwhelm Crook but it did inflict enough damage that Crook’s advance along the Rosebud was stymied and he was forced to fall back on Fort Russell. One of the logistical problems in the Northern Plains was that it was nearly impossible to care for wounded. The presence of any number of wounded men meant that either the wounded had to be abandon or the whole operation had to stop until the wounded could be returned to civilization.

Reno"s scout did show that the Hostiles were either at the headwaters of Rosebud Creek or were across the divide in the next water shed to the west, the Little Big Horn. It was expected that the non-reservation Indians would be found in the middle reaches of the Little Big Horn. Base on this expectancy, Terry ordered Custer with his regiment to march well up the Rosebud, cross over the divide and come down the Little Big Horn. In the meantime, Gibbon, accompanied by Terry, was to proceed up the Yellowstone by boat to the mouth of the Big Horn, go up the Big Horn to the Little Big Horn and then march up the Little Big Horn to pinch the Hostiles between the two forces. All this was a correct estimate of what the Hostiles were doing and were about to do. There was one serious miscalculation, however.

It was known that the non-reservation Indians, all with an informal allegiance to Sitting Bull, had a fighting force of about 800 man and boys. There were many times that number of warriors with the bands that had reported into the reservations. As long as the permanent roamers with Sitting Bull were not substantially reenforced by warriors from the reservations, either Custer’s regiment of Gibbon’s force should have been able to overmatch any congregation of Indians found in the Little Big Horn valley. Large numbers of reservation warriors had left the reservations in the spring of 1876, just as soon as the grass had greened enough to support their horses. This fact was not reported by the reservation agents to the army. It may be that the departures were concealed (since a 19th Century Indian reservation was not an apartment block where every one could be accounter for), and it may be that the departures were not reported so that rations would continue to be issued for Indians who had left, allowing the agents to sell the surplus. What ever the reason, by mid-June at least 1500 warriors were with the bands that had gathered in the Little Big Horn Valley, maybe more.

As Custer marched up the Rosebud there were signs that the village he was tracking was bigger than the 800 or so warriors he expected to find. While there was a main trail of the Indian village there were other trials branching off to the Southeast. Custer attributed these side trails to bands leaving the main body. In fact they were the trails of small bands from the reservations joining the main body. A count of the places where lodges had been pitched showed a village consistent with the information that Sitting Bill had a fighting strength of about 800. The lodge counts, however, disregarded many temporary shelters that had been built by the bachelor warriors coming in from the reservations. There is some indication that these brush huts were inexplicably regarded as dog houses.

One of the army’s big concerns was that Sitting Bull’s camp would break up into many small bands before the army could come to grips with the main Indian body. This was one reason that the trails of joining bands were attributed to bands leaving the camp. What the army feared the most was a break up of the camp so it attributed signs to that possibility. Custer then found himself on a hot trail of a village that he thought was getting ready to disburse. Once disbursed the objective of driving the Hostiles onto the reservations became impossible. In the face of this Custer’s answer was, not unreasonably, to increase the pace of his march and to follow the trail over into the Little Big Horn Valley without waiting for Terry and Gibbon’s force to get into position. He could think that his regiment could deal with anything it might encounter and that delay in coming to grips with the Indian village might doom the whole operation.

On the early morning of June 25, after a miserable night march, the regiment turned out of the Rosebud Valley, over the intervening divide and into the Little Big Horn Valley. At dawn, from high ground on the divide, Custer’s scouts spotted Sitting Bull’s camp along the Little Big Horn and realized that the camp was bigger than anyone had expected. At about the same time there were indications that scouts from the Indian camp had seen the approaching soldiers. At this point Custer had no option except to attack the village as quickly as possible. Just as soon as Custer crossed out of the Rosebud Valley he was committed to an attack, Gibbon in support or not, no matter how many Hostiles were in the Little Big Horn encampment.

The speculative question is whether or not Custer’s attack could have succeeded. Given the situation and what Custer knew or should have known, it seems to me that is he had kept his regiment together, or its parts withing close supporting distance of each other, he could have. It seems to me that it was not the decision to attack that doomed General Custer and five companies of his regiment, but the decision to break the regiment into three separate and independent battalions that sealed his fate.

Anyone who wants to follow up on this might take a look at John S. Gray, Centennial Campaign: The Sioux War of 1876, Univ. Of Oklahoma Press (1988). For a collection of primary source material you can’t beat W.A. Graham, The Custer Myth, Stackpole (1953), reissue by Bonanza Books.

The Straight Dope on the Alamo

Among other things, Davy Crockett, instead of dying heroically in battle, may have surrendered, only to be summarily executed by the Mexicans.

And, although the Texan War of Independence is usually depicted as a struggle for “freedom,” one of the freedoms the Texans were especially concerned about was the freedom to keep slaves: