Despite the rather inflammatory thread title, there was scope for an actual discussion here. Some have indeed been abiding by the IMHO rules, but, there’s been am awful lot of foaming at the mouth, insults and snide snarking. I’ve been too busy to go over it carefully, and for this I apologize.
So at this point, the outright insults and the snide nastiness needs to stop. If not, I’ll close the thread and anyone who wants to continue in this vein can go ahead and reopen the topic in the BBQ Pit. Otherwise, get back on track.
Well, I’m sorry if I contributed to this all going off the rails. Back to your original OP and to your request for a cite where I said that cars are generally obey stop signs. I simply meant that the number of cars who approach a stop sign and make no attempt to slow down is lower, in my experience, than the number of cyclists who make no attempt to slow down. In terms of coming to a full stop, I think most cars and most bicyclists roll through stop signs when there’s no cross traffic and nobody really cares.
One thing I think that affects the perception is the speed difference. A car that slows from 25 mph to 5mph to roll through the stop sign is pretty clearly slowing. A cyclist who slows from 12 mph to 4 mph to roll through a stop sign isn’t as obviously slowing.
This is the part I was really wondering about. In this thread I’ve been called a jerk and other names for doing essentially this but I’ve always viewed it as you do; nobody really cares. I still don’t care, but I wanted to know if others do.
Your last point about perception I agree with. Relative speed changes is one part of it. I also think that people are generally biased and they will judge a cyclist through the lens of that bias.
I also apologize for being part of the derail. I admit to getting frenzied when people complain about cyclists who are riding properly. Sorry.
The usual accusation against cyclists is that they ‘blow’ stop signs. When that term is used I associate it with not slowing down in the least. I won’t pretend some cyclists don’t do this.
Trouble is, as noted by the perception problem, most drivers cannot tell the difference between blowing a stop sign and slowing down for one. Many more do not even care.
Frankly, as often as not the whole ‘cyclists don’t stop at stop signs’ because something of an excuse for drivers to have a mad-on against cyclists. Truth is that drivers may make noise about cyclists ‘needing to obey the laws’ while a) ignoring select laws themselves (cell phone usage, speeding) and b) treating cyclists who are obeying the laws properly with proper respect (which is most certainly not what is done).
I agree. I posted as such earlier when someone used that term to describe the situation I outlined in the OP.
I wonder how much of this is that cyclists are already going as slow as a car would through the stop sign, but since the cyclist never changes speed it looks like they are just blowing through it.
Another interesting question to me would be the perception of speed. Cyclists are smaller so they might look faster. A cyclist can also be a flurry of motion.
I have suspected a minor factor in driver perception is that if they are approaching an intersection where a cyclist has stopped or slowed, and the view is obscured due to parked cars or city buildings, then what they usually only see is the cyclist coming through the intersection pedaling hard and their thoughts will “see how hard he is pedaling! I bet they never stopped!”
If’n it wasn’t for cars, and everybody road bikes instead, most roads I ride down wouldn’t need stop signs.
Of course the “roads” would probably be more like dirt trails. And traffic would be less because few people would travel more then ten miles from home on a given day unless they caught a train or boat. But then global warming would be something only scientist studying other planets would know about.
And we’d have trash bikes and ambulance bikes and firetruck bikes… :pand no, it’s only about 1/3 from transportation , and of that only about 60% from “light duty vehicles”. So, 20%? And of course if everyone traveled by train or bus their emissions would be higher. Mind you even 15% is quite a lot.
Also remember that bike riders are much closer to the intersection and have a better view than most cars. So what is a cautious calculated risk will look faster than is “safe” in most non-cyclists minds.
But the reality and as been cited on the dope multiple times the compliance rate for cars at stop signs is quite low too. If there is no traffic to wait for less than a quarter of cars come to a complete legal stop.
It is not a mode of transportation trait it is a human trait.
Unfortunately it is also a human trait to attribute actions by people you don’t relate to as moral a moral failing while excusing the behavior of those you do relate to. This is called the “Ultimate attribution error”
I try to be quite understanding of that human fault but I have little tolerance for the sense of entitlement that many people on both sides exhibit. And most of the kvetching in this thread was due to an undue feeling of entitlement IMHO.
On a bike I slow down (or at least stop pedaling) quite a bit before the intersection. If you just observe me just before the intersection it looks like I’m not actively braking but the reality is I’ve already slowed down. If the situation requires me to stop, I stop - this is the norm in urban traffic. In suburban and rural settings slowing down is often enough to take in the situation and evaluate a safe crossing of the intersection.
I had assumed for a long time that my actions were not contributing to the perception that all cyclists are entitled jerks. If anyone saw my actions as such, I figured there were biased motorists and in the minority. But at least one cyclist in this thread thinks I’m a jerk which surprised me.
It is going to happen. I am in the category of cyclists who think decent slowdown & check is more than adequate for safety purposes when riding (certainly safer than the cars who do little more than tap the brakes and certain stop signs) - and that I don’t get horribly bent out of shape when cyclists don’t come to a foot-down stop at stop signs.
But there are some in other categories: Some who openly think blowing stop signs and running red lights through heavy cross traffic is acceptable behavior and those who think that if you don’t stop at an intersection, dismount, check for cars, yield to cars that are two blocks away when you checked, and then maybe consider crossing the street then you are making us all cyclists look bad™.
You probably tend to notice and remember THE bicyclist who doesn’t slow down much.
I am betting both you and the bike are traveling at the similar speeds or the bikes are probably going slower as you both go through the intersection (unless you drive around at 12 mph)
Which are you more careful about, and which has a higher risk to others? Tossing a football at a friend or shooting a gun towards a friend? 3000 pounds has a lot more energy than 180 pounds at 12mph
I am betting, due to the speed differential your time to look for other traffic is similar. And that you both tend to spend the same amount of time looking for other traffic.
From my perspective, cyclists that don’t slow down to around 10mph (depending on visibility) are jerks. So I think we agree on that. What do you think of cyclists that do slow down but don’t stop, which is what I was trying to outline in the OP.
Not everyone is going to like everyone. But even if you road a bike perfectly those small number of drivers would find another reason to dislike you, heck “fashion” or the desire to not have chafed gentiles was called out as a reason do dislike bike riders on here.
The funny thing is that when I decided to move to vehicular cycling, the negative interactions I had with drivers went way down. I made the change mostly out of the realization that risking my safety was not a valid reason to save a driver 10 seconds on their trip time. I take the full lane often and never use poorly placed bike lanes that put me in the door zone. I am also too fast of a rider to use multi-use paths so I am the exact type that several have complained about here. But they can deal and fume about it in silence if they wish, the roads are a shared public resource.
Oddly the only vocal retort I have heard in months was because I passed a cab who was going way too slow and he was insulted that I went around him.