I completely agree. I was trying to understand if this is a zero tolerance thing as some have said (stopping at every intersection, regardless of time and traffic). I can’t speak for anyone else, but for me I completely agree that cyclists who jump the right of way are the epitome of bad cyclists.
And because you have decided that YOU are doing it perfectly safely, you feel you shouldn’t have to abide the actual law that forbids this. The sign says STOP!
Sorry, but that’s the definition of self entitled, I believe.
Equally as silly as the rationalizations that, you don’t mind cars doing it, so you shouldn’t have to. Or ‘But I see cars do it!’
How are these anything but (seemingly self evident) simple justifications for something you well know is both illegal, and loathed by others using the road?
I really wish you wouldn’t continue to miss-classify my argument that I feel I’m allowed to because I see cars do it. As I’ve explained, I do it because I feel it is safe and actually clears the intersection faster for both me and the cars.
I’m not rationalizing this by saying I don’t mind cars doing it so I shouldn’t have to. I’m rationalizing it by saying it is safe (opinions can vary on this, I get that), which is the intent of the law. I brought cars into it because, as I’ve said, I wondered if people who think cyclists who do this are self entitled similarly think motorists are.
I get it. You think it is wrong and I’m self entitled for doing it. Your opinion is noted and I as I’ve said, it is good to try and see things from other points of view. Your view is that one must strictly obey every law at all times. Fair enough.
Bolding added.
Many, many years ago, I, while driving, had it explained to me by a police officer thusly :
“Stop means all forward motion must cease.”
Since then, whether in a car or on a bicycle, I come to a complete stop at stop signs.
YMMNV :^)
I live in one of the most cycle friendly places in the US–it sucks. There are two types of cyclist: spandex wearing cyclists and commuters. The spandex sports guys are actually not too bad as they tend to follow the rules of the road with signals and stopping and such. Not so the commuter. Blowing through stop signs, using crosswalks as if they were pedestrians, sidewalk riders, riding in the middle of the road ignoring bike lanes. Damn you cursed lady with groceries and the big floppy hat!
No doubt there are very bad cyclists everywhere. My question is if you think the scenario in the OP is one which is “not too bad” or one that you think deserves chastising and disdain.
Of course not–not obeying a stop sign when no one is there is not a problem for me. Just like not using your directional if there is no one to signal to. I regularly turn when safe to do so on a red arrow when there is no on coming traffic. If a tree falls in the woods it doesn’t make a sound, so to speak.
Yes, this is what I do too in many cases. But then this leads to this!
Cyclists scare me to death. A lot don’t follow the rules of traffic. I get the yearn for “floating through” but it’s just. not. safe. Has anybody ever said, after an accident, “Yeah, I saw them coming but I decided to go anyway.”
I don’t drive anymore but make a good screaming navigator, alerting my husband to every risk, which I’m sure he appreciates. But we both see cyclists darting past, around, and through all the time.
The thing is, if there’s a collision it’s the cyclist who’s more likely to be hurt or even killed. And then the driver is in trouble, even though that’s minor to the guilt felt from hurting another human being. And it doesn’t have to be.
You yourself said it’s illegal. (Why? Because it’s not safe.) So, why do you ask? Are you trying to convince yourself that it’s okay?
I’m already convinced it is okay. I wasn’t looking for affirmation of that fact. Rolling through a stop sign is not safe in many situations, but is in many others.
It is against the law because most lawmakers haven’t clued into making it legal for cyclists. Some places have. Cite. Under that statue cyclists are even allowed to proceed through a red light under certain circumstances.
Much like making a right on red was once illegal everywhere, many places deemed it safe and made it legal. I imagine in the years to come treating a stop sign as a yield sign will be legal for cyclists in many more places.
I was curious how other people see it, though. Lots of people do lots of illegal things every day. I’d be surprised if your husband never exceeds the speed limit, always uses his turn signal, and always, every time, comes to a complete stop at every stop sign or making a right on red. Everyone that does these types of thing rationalizes that it is okay for one reason or another. I’m no different. As I’ve indicated in this thread, it seems cars are mostly given a pass on this. Cyclists seem to get a lot of flack or judgement.
Yeah, you were. You basically asked “Well, I do this because I’m totes sure it’s fine. Y’all don’t think I’m an asshole, do you?” and then argued with anyone who said “Yes, actually, you’re being a huge asshole.” That’s not looking for a discussion, that’s looking for affirmation. Or possibly trying to play a gotcha-ya, since after people call you an asshole you trot out the “But cars do it too!” bit.
And for the record, you’re being an asshole. So are all the assholes who roll through a stop sign in a car.
Whew - don’t have enough time to read all this but I think I have the gist:
To the OP - if you are saying your behavior is to ‘respect the other drivers / bikes with regards to safety and rules of the road with *absolutely *obeying the stop sign’ then I don’t have a significant issue with it.
I do understand that in the real world a bicyclist has poor acceleration off a stop and would slow others waiting for him/her to clear an intersection.
Issues arise when I have to a) modify my legal behavior to account for a cyclist’s actions or b) have to guess at ambiguous intent. If I am driving along and I have to hit my brakes or change direction because of another’s illegal or inconsiderate act I will not be happy. If I (or others) don’t then my ability to care is significantly reduced.
That is the feedback I was looking for, so thanks!
I realize it might look like I was looking for affirmation, but I truly am not. Some people hate cyclists just because there are enough asshole cyclists that it sort of taints the water for everyone. Apparently I might be one of them. Such is life.
The arguing and vitriol that usually accompanies these threads makes it hard to tell where the line is drawn between asshole cyclist and just a cyclist. I don’t imagine every single traffic infringement rises to the level of asshole, so I wondered how this particular one is viewed. I wasn’t after affirmation, I can assure you. I brought cars into it only to try to gauge if those that thought this was asshole behavior thought that because of the behavior itself or because it was cyclists. It wasn’t meant to be a gotcha. Sorry about that.
I hope you meant “without” and not “with”. If so, that is what I’m getting at. I NEVER expect cars to get out of my way. Ever. Cars are big and hard and I lose, even if I’m “right”, if I get hit. I don’t expect any special rights or privileges because I’m no a bike. I don’t get right of way because I’m on a bike. I get right of way because the rules of the road, bike or car, say I get right of way. But even with that, much of the time I give up my right of way to avoid getting hit. If a car can’t see me, and I know they can’t see me, I stay out of the way and let them have it. At a 4-way stop, where I unambiguously have right of way, I slow down, check to make sure it is safe, and go. I don’t always come to a full stop. If I don’t right of way, I stop, allow the vehicle (or pedestrian, cyclist, whatever) with right of way to proceed, then go.
I don’t know what you were looking for in this thread then. I am with CrazyCatLady, you are behaving poorly. I know you’re convinced it’s okay to roll through stop signs. I ride a bike daily, and I’m convinced it’s okay too. I still don’t, though, because it is illegal. I think Idaho-style legislation for bikes (stop as yield, red light as stop sign) makes the most sense. Allowing cyclists to treat stop signs as yield signs would be more convenient for everyone. Allowing cyclists to go through a red light with no cross traffic after stopping seems a little more dicey, but also probably would result in clearing intersections faster. Still, you don’t get to go rogue and obey the laws as you wished they were.
The problem is that drivers hate everything that is moving slower than them on the roads and everything that is moving faster than them on the roads. They’re also not too hot on things moving exactly as fast as them either. Drivers hate cyclists for every possible reason ranging from clothing choices to “who do you think you are?? this isn’t the Tour de France!” to “roads weren’t made for anything but cars!” to how they go about obeying the law. Why turn that animosity from cyclists in general to you, the cyclist, personally?
If some state actually thought about implementing Idaho-style laws, you do realize that many people would be arguing that cyclists never obey the law and that Idaho-style laws would just give cyclists more gumption to steal the right of way at intersections. The saddest thing is that those people are probably right.
I think you should take this attitude about dealing with cars to how you think about dealing with the laws of the road, as well. Primarily consider the “I NEVER expect cars to get out of my way” thought process when it comes to writing, implementing, and enforcing traffic laws. There will always be more cars on the roads than bikes, and the laws and attitudes are always going to reflect that. The laws are probably always going to be car-oriented first, so it helps to accept that and adjust your behavior within that.
Attitudes about cars speeding are so ingrained, because just about everyone drives and just about everyone speeds. The laws and enforcement are basically designed with the idea that everyone goes 5-10 mph faster than the speed limit. Bikes aren’t as common on the roads and most drivers simply aren’t familiar with the reality of riding a bike. Arguing that cars frequently ignore traffic laws isn’t going to convince anyone that you should be able to roll through stop signs, because acceptable societal behaviors aren’t really subject to that kind of logic.
For those who don’t like to click on links, here is a short excerpt from the Idaho law:
It is my understanding that other states are considering adopting the Idaho Stop.
Personally, I got a ticket a long time ago for doing a rolling stop in my car; since then I always do a full stop. On my bike, I tend to do the Idaho Stop; it makes perfect sense.
Thanks much for this - I haven’t seen the quoted law before and I like the way it is worded.
As a commuter rider I applaud the bargain price on broad brushes you must have bought at Home Depot.
Yeah, you got it. I had to head out for work so I was a bit rushed. Failed proof reading.