You could also add that some people advocate death or severe bodily harm to those who piss them off for not obeying laws.
I am not one of them. Tickets work for me.
Nothing personal taken.
I never made that argument, actually. My argument is with the drivers who complain bicyclists are BREAKING THE LAW!! OMG!!! WON’T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN! when they run a stop sign at 5:00 am on a deserted intersection or go through a stop light that simply won’t react to a bike. I haven’t seen a single cyclist saying they shouldn’t be ticketed if caught. This isn’t about who gets to break more laws. My argument, at least, is that bikes aren’t evil just because they break a law.
I’m… speechless. murder is the same as running a stop sign? Just… wow.
Nobody is going to die if you exceed the speed limit by 5mph, but a number of drivers abuse that leniency, and some in a very assholish manner. Do you have this same disdain for drivers as a group, too?
Actually, it makes some sense. The right lane is for cars turning right and there is a bike lane to the right of that one, as well. There just happens to be a second bike lane between the “right turn” lane and the “left/straight” lane.
CookingWithGas summed it up well and is what I started with. There are jerks in ever segment. Drivers who complain cyclists are breaking the law, and complain only about cyclists breaking the law, are hypocrites. Drivers break plenty of laws so it can’t just be a “breaking the law is bad” argument. Breaking the law in a way that endangers yourself or others is definitely an assholish thing to do, but that is true whether you are a cyclist or driver. Cyclists don’t have a monopoly on that.
Do you have this same argument for motorcycles being on the road, too? Do you treat them as if they will act randomly at any given moment? There are bad motorcycle riders and you are far more likely to kill a motorcyclist than another driver.
Who ever said anything about wanting to kill? Talk about a strawman.
That is an argument I can understand and support. I have the same feeling about drivers when I’m on my bike. While I’m driving I don’t actually have fear of cyclists, but my experiences are obviously different than yours.
However, I still want to come back to the original argument. Would you or would you not agree that a cyclist who runs a stop sign/light with no cross traffic of any kind isn’t by definition a bad cyclist?
At one point it wasn’t legal to turn right on red in most places. Did that make turning right on red an inherently dangerous thing to do? Making it legal didn’t automatically turn it from dangerous to safe, but it did allow for cars to more quickly clear an intersection WHEN IT WAS SAFE TO DO SO.
I think everyone will agree that cyclists who run stop signs/lights haphazardly and endanger others are bad ones. That was never the question. The question is if cyclists should or should not be expected to stop at every stop sign and every stop light regardless of the circumstances. If your answer to that is yes, I’d want to know how you can similarly support (if you indeed do) that going 5 mph over the speed limit is okay for you to do.
The “momentum” argument cyclists use is simply because there is a cost to stopping and starting at every stop sign/light. It isn’t trivial like stepping on a gas pedal, and if you’ve ever ridden a bike you’d know that first hand.
Moving violations aren’t crimes. People who commit them aren’t criminals, at least not for that reason.
I bike recreationally (not to get to work or for basic transportation). I can’t support the momentum argument. There is a cost to stopping and starting no matter what your mode of transportation. Because the cyclist is the engine, the cost is a physical one for the cyclist. There is an economic cost of wear and tear and gasoline on the car. As was said earlier, we all have a free choice as to what mode of transportation we use and can’t expect other people to pay for our tradeoffs for us. I don’t expect cyclists to pay for my gas tax and brake repairs, and cyclists shouldn’t expect me to give up my right of way to keep them from getting as tired.
Now, I’ve encountered a lot of nice drivers who wave me through stop signs, and as a driver I’ve done the same, but the problem comes when the cyclist feels it’s an entitlement.
Can you please, pretty, pretty, pretty please with sugar on top, point to where I implied in any way whatsoever that drivers should give up their right of way to a cyclist. I’ve tried to say the opposite all along. Your argument is akin to saying right on red should be illegal because it means the cross traffic with a green light will have to give up their right of way to the person turning right on red.
I’ll try again. When the intersection is clear and it poses no danger to anyone else, cyclists running the stop sign/light aren’t necessarily bad cyclists. That’s my entire argument. Some seem to be arguing that running a stop sign/light under any circumstances make cyclists unpredictable and random and some even go so far as to do whatever it takes to get around a cyclist because of this fear. I just don’t see that level of hatred for bikes necessary.
As for the momentum side of things, it is very similar to speeding. People speed for all kinds of reasons, but probably top of the list is because it will get them to where they want to go faster. How is that so different than running the stop sign? When the conditions are safe, going 5mph or even 10mph over the speed limit doesn’t automatically make you a hazard to all of humanity. But just as you don’t speed down a bumper to bumper freeway, cyclists shouldn’t run stop signals if the conditions aren’t such that it is safe to do.
You said it right here:
I said that it shouldn’t be a big deal for a bike to run a stop sign/light at certain times and places. If you took that to mean I mean bikes always get the right of way I apologize. I never meant to imply that at all.
Perhaps I misinterpreted you, in which case I apologize as well. The last thing we need is more yelling and screaming 
Interestingly, the majority of motorcycle drivers are aware that car drivers aren’t aware of them, and they drive much more responsibly (in general) than the “bad” bicycle riders (remember, we’re not talking about the “good” ones). Therefore I normally expect a motorcycle rider to do the right thing. I normally expect a car driver to do the right thing. With bicycle riders, though, I always, always have to assume the worst, because there’s a higher-percentage of bicycle riders who just assume they always have the right of way (or at least act like they always have the right of way).
Consider, too, that I know that not every bicyclist is bad (or even the majority), and that not every motorcyclist or car driver is perfect. I give plenty of space to motorcyclists, and I’m wary about bicyclists. Unlike so many of the others, I’ve not expressed rage at them; I’m only saying that I’m scared of them, and I treat them so. As a bicyclist, don’t you actually wish there were more drivers like me?
You said you’d rather kill than be killed. The obvious, humorous point was, I’d rather not kill, period.
Define “no cross traffic.” In a block? In any visible distance? Or in the 300 feet that it takes for the cyclist to clear the cross traffic? In any case, I don’t have a horse in the race, since if I can’t see the cyclist, I’m not afraid of him, and so I don’t take any special precautions.
Ah, yes, thank you. These set the example for why I have to worry about all of them.
300 feet? Just how wide an intersection are you talking about? A traffic lane is what, 12 feet? At 300 feet, that would be 24 lanes of traffic! Even with extra distance for a median and shoulder, you are still talking about at least 8 lanes in each direction! No wonder you thinks bikes shouldn’t ride across an intersection!
By no cross traffic I mean no cars with the right of way at the intersection. If I’m rolling up the stop sign, and have the right for way, I will make sure the cars are stopping and then just go. I’m not taking anyone’s right of way and I’m certainly not endangering anyone. If you really want to consider that a random act that makes me a menace to society, have at it. It really isn’t in the slightest bit different than you speeding.
By that same logic you need to worry about every single moving thing out there. I know you claim there are more bicyclists doing dumb things than other vehicles, but you’ll forgive me if your personal observations don’t really sway me into accepting that as fact.
As a biker, I worry about cars that pass me and then pull right without signaling, open doors blindly into traffic, use the bike lane to pass without looking, coast through stop signs, drive too far to the right, and in general make my commute a constant joy. We have to worry about all cars on the road because some do bad things and we simply can’t afford to lose a battle.
On a side note, I witnessed a serious car vs bike accident today at lunchtime that I’m pretty sure was the bikers fault. He was riding on the sidewalk and rode out into a crosswalk. I suspect the driver had the right of way and wasn’t expecting a bike to come out that quickly. When I left the scene the biker was still down and had yet to move at all. Let’s be careful out there.
Well, you gotta figure at least a few of them cheat on their taxes!
OK, I admit, a little bit after posting that, I realized how over the top it was. I blame El Niño.
My reading was that 300 feet referred to the distance the car would travel in the time it took the bicyclist to cross.
That’s just as reasonable as my position, except from the perspective of a biker. Oh, did I not mention that I, too, ride a bicycle more than occasionally?
Honestly? No. I do not. I want drivers to respect me, to respect my right to the road, and to only be afraid of real life legal consequences should they be the cause of an accident, be it with a cyclist, pedestrian or another driver.
I’ve ridden around far too many drivers who were ‘scared’ of cyclists. It is not a pleasant thing and has almost lead to serious problems in a few cases.
That thought occurred to me after posting, too. I completely misread that statement.
No bicyclists around here (Cambridge, MA) obey the stop signs or traffic lights. They will stop if there’s a lot of traffic or a dangerous intersection and the signal represents a convenience for them. Otherwise it’s a free-for-all. (Yes, there are cars who drive like idiots, too.)
Similarly, we have pedestrians who step out into the street without looking when there’s fast-moving oncoming traffic, and then yell at the cars from the middle of the road. Yes, they have the right of way but that doesn’t mean they should act like idiots.
Not in Idaho. And perhaps soon, not in Oregon. Other states may follow this trend. Then what will you whine about?
No prob - we all get carried away now and then.