So I know a guy who’s convinced that no human has ever been to the moon. His biggest claim to support this is the amount of fuel that would have been needed to get there and back. I’ve found answers to all the other hoax claims, but can’t find anything in regards to this. Does anyone have any info on how much fuel was needed and used that I can present to him?
I can’t remember the source atm but I recall something about 3 stage rocket was needed because of the friction from the Earth’s atmosphere and gravity, but on the way back, there was essentially no friction and thus very little fuel was needed.
My friend (a PhD in material science) says compressed liquids and gases (oxygen to breathe, for example) can be stored in very small spaces.
Imho, I don’t understand how they had enough air, water and food to eat. “Astronaut food” is cute but seriously they still need water.
Inertia.
- Sir Isaac Newton
(First week of High School physics.)
Did they get out and push on the way home? 
There was plenty of friction on the way back, that’s why they had the heat shield. But getting back from orbit is easier because you are just falling towards earth.
The whole spacecraft interior was about the size of a full SUV, maybe a bit bigger. Don’t you think you could put enough food and water in a Bronco to keep three men going for a week?
The point about the fuel is that the only part of the trip that takes a lot of energy is getting from Florida to high orbit. For that, you need a Saturn V. From there to the Moon and back just takes a command module’s power.
The trick with multi-staging is to dump off any empty equipment as soon as it isn’t needed. They separated parts of the rocket on the way up so it would take less fuel to continue. They left more than half the mass of the lunar module on the surface to make the return to lunar orbit easy.
He almost certainly has no idea how to calculate this himself, nor any idea how to evaluate any one else’s calculation of how much fuel would be needed. Tell him this (OK, not that it will help).
The drinking water was a waste product of the electrical power system. Specifically, the capsules used hydrogen-oxygen fuel cells, which combine hydrogen and oxygen to yield electrical power and water. The oxygen tanks for this system are what famously exploded during the Apollo 13 mission.
At a launch weight of 6.7 million pounds, the Saturn V rocket was carrying a very serious amount of fuel.
But, as ZenBeam indicates, this is probably an “argument from personal incredulity”: He has no idea how much fuel is actually needed, but feels that it might be more than was aboard. Not a position that deserves much respect.
I wouldn’t tell him this, but rather ask to see his calculations. Ideally, you do so as if you really believe he has them, so you can act disappointed and confused that he’s objecting when he hasn’t even looked at the numbers.
In the unlikely event you do get any numbers out of him, and the mistakes aren’t glaringly obvious to you, post them here.
We’ll take care of the next step.
I have the suspicion that this guy thinks that the entire mission had to be powered. Ask him if he thinks all rockets today are also hoaxes. If not, then they certainly have enough fuel to get into orbit. Getting to the Moon doesn’t take a whole lot more than that.
Some points.
Its takes WAY more energy to just get into low earth orbit than it does to go from low earth orbit to orbiting the moon, or orbiting the moon to landing on the moon.
IIRC the Saturn V used about 25 pounds of fuel to put one pound in low earth orbit (LEO). The space shuttle needs about 15.
To go from the ground to LEO you need a speed of about 10 kilometers per second. To go from LEO to Lunar orbit requires about 4 KPS. To go from lunar orbit to the lunar surface requires “only” 1.6 KPS.
Keep in mind that a 10 KPS requirement vs say a 5 kps requirement does NOT mean 10 is twice as hard as 5. Its a significantly non-linear function. Take for example, the Saturn V 25 to one ratio. For going from the moons surface to orbiting the moon only required a ratio of roughly 1 to 1 (half the rocket’s mass was fuel).
So, by comparision, going to and fro is much easier than getting into orbit, and therefore needs much less fuel. And getting outa of orbit and back down is a piece of cake by comparision because you can let the atmosphere do all the work.
And as for fuel, if I havnt messed up the numbers, the lunar lander had about 15 thousand pounds of fuel. The service module, which took them to and from earths orbit to the lunar orbit, used about 50 thousand pounds of fuel. In my book thats still a bunch of fuel.
Note, my numbers could be off a bit, dont take em as gospel, but they are certainly ballpark.
Or to summarize, the Saturn 5 had to do the hardest part by far and also in doing so was putting up the Sevice module, the command module, the lunar lander, and the lunar ascent stage. The Service module had it easier and only had to take the command module and the lunar lander/ascent to lunar orbit. The lunar vehicle had the easiest part and only had to land itself and bring back up about 1/6 the mass it landed.
So, of course, the rockets at the tail end are going to be smaller and have less fuel than the ones at the front end. It really shouldnt take a rocket scientist to figure this part out.
Tell him that they simply fell back to Earth. :smack:
Don’t waste your time with this idiot. If you could possibly convince him that they could carry enough fuel, he’d find something else: The walls of the LM couldn’t possibly be strong enough to hold the fuel in the vacuum of space. The Moon is covered in two miles of dust. The ship would be eaten up by the giant intergalactic space goat.
Conspiracy theorists put a lot of effort and time into their conspiracies, and they aren’t going to let a few facts destroy what they spent years building. If you are actually winning the argument, then you must be part of the conspiracy. That’s why you know so much. Of course, it all makes sense. Sure, you have the excuse you weren’t alive yet in 1969, but then you know very well that the CIA has a time machine.
Just say to this guy, “You’re absolutely correct! Why there is no possible way for them to get to the moon. Now, excuse me, I have to get going. I …uh… left the kids in the oven. Have a nice life. Don’t call me, I’ll call you.”
Actually, if he has any numbers (I doubt it, too), post them regardless. I’m sure that those of us who finished high school math will get quite a good laugh out of them.
All true. But the “free” water was just a bonus. And lack of it wouldnt have been a show stopper.
I mean really, how much damn water do three guys need for a week? About 2 dozen gallons ? So, thats about 200 lbs. So, the equiv of another astronaut. On a space vehicle that weighs about 130, 000 lbs once in low earth orbit ! How in the world would they manage ? :rolleyes:
If the OP’s friend doesnt think they could carry enough water for a week (even though they didnt NEED to), how in gods name does he think ocean voyages that lasted for months were accomplished?
Actually, I once had some success with an idiot like this. He had seen a TV show or two with the old “proofs”: (the flag supposedly waving, the shadows supposedly at illogical angles,due to stage lights, the lack of moon dust on the lander, etc).
I didn’t try to explain science, because that never works for these kind of people.So I asked him a question that made him think logically…and it worked!
I asked him to think about how to lie—If the moon landing was a lie, then let’s compare it with how he used to lie to his parents and teachers, when he was a kid. The basic rule was: if it works,be careful!—Don’t press your luck by repeating it till you get caught. Because almost every lie and prank you pulled eventually got you into trouble, if you kept doing it.
I hit him with the question that convinced him : If it was all a lie, why did they do it over and over again, risking more and more chances to get caught?
If they just wanted to fake it and look good on TV, they did a good job the first time. But then they launched another 6 missions and each one was more complicated than the previous one, with more TV coverage, and more chances to make a mistake and get caught.
He couldnt (or wouldn’t) understand the science…but he could relate to his own personal experiences— (lying, and then repeating it till you make a mistake and get caught.)
I think I successfully convinced him.
Rain?
I don’t believe your friend exists. I think you made him up.
This is my suspicion, too, combined with the suspicion that he thinks Saturn V moon rockets run on gasoline.
“A quarter of a million miles? Each way? Do you have any idea how much gas that would take?!?!?”