Dang, all this controversy makes me even more confused. Is there a generic term for transexuals that won’t piss them off? I’ve only known one transexual, who came to the DBSA group meetings I went to. I wasn’t sure if the person had completed the process, so I have no idea which pronoun to use.
Ah - thanks - that makes a lot of sense. I wonder if they are doing it to try and fit under the “T” in LGBT? It didn’t even occur to me that they would consider themselves transgendered/transexual, but yeah - I get how your way of doing it would help to make those distinctions clearer.
And in my own ignorance - I used to think that transexuals were kinda like cross dressers that were more committed, but now I know my understanding (mainly from listening to Dan Savage) - that cross dressers aren’t necessarily gay either (and almost always not). I’ve seen that many of them are in pain too, but most of that seems to stem from their (either real or feared) non acceptance from women that they are with with. Your answer more eloquently and accurately states the situation.
I have been very touched by the response that the other transgendered person I know received on coming out. It was a little unusual situation - which made it even more touching, but I knew the other person I talked about much better and the pain she went through - and might still be going through (I keep meaning to look her up, but I am bad at keeping in touch sometimes) - was immense. She was never (at that point) physically attacked, but I think her emotional pain was worse than any I have ever seen. And even if 99% of the response is positive - having even one person in a hundred think you are a freak would be devastating.
Thanks again for helping me understand.
I know this wasn’t addressed to me, but it isn’t the fact that it isn’t science - it is that it has nothing to do with being straight. Not trying to put words - or speak for the “T” community, but someone who is a transgendered female was born as a male, but feels inside that they are a female - because they are in every way but physically (and many times there - you wouldn’t be able to tell if you didn’t look at their penis [if they still have it].
Using the term “straight gendered” would kinda be offensive to gay males or lesbian females - and suggest that they are less male or female than their straight counterparts.
It would also kinda be insulting to gay transgendered females (again born male) (who would appear to be lesbian to most people) and the same for gay transgendered males (born as female) who like other men. Because most people that still don’t get the transexual/transgendered “trapped in a body I don’t belong thing” would consider THEM straight gendered (as people who still don’t understand - would consider a transgendered female as male (cause they have a Y chromosome)). So they would consider that person as “straight” gendered.
It really is different. I total admit “cis-gender” to me still seems like a weird word, but really it seems necessary to me. And it is a new word - but language has to evolve to encompass things that weren’t understood when that language evolved. To me this seems like the perfect case.
I undersatnd what you’re saying, but really the word straight, in regards to homosexuality, just means ‘not homosexual.’ I don’t see why, given the need to create a new word anyway, we can’t just let straight-gendered mean ‘not transexual or transgendered.’ The reality is that the issues of gender and sexuality are very frequently discussed at the same time, as evidenced by the LGBT movement, and a large segment of the population is neither homosexual nor transgendered.
I may be incorrect - as I am far from an expert in this area, but I did live with some gay people for a few years - but when a person identifies as gay or lesbian, there is typically an implication that that person is not transgenered, as they would have identified a such when characterizing their sexuality (even though gender and sexuality are very much not the same). It’s just a bit of convention, really. So, if a straight person were to characterize themself as straight, I don’t see the necessity of reading a negative connotation along with an implication that this is also an indication of their not being transgenderd, as a corollary to the way that gays self-identify.
Again - I am not transexual, but from what I know (friends who are and Dan Savage) - the pronoun thing doesn’t have to do with whether they had a sex change or not. The sex change thing might have to do with personal preference - or financial concerns (and probably other things I have no knowledge of).
The two people I know both use names and dress as members of their gender. I know when people first get used to this concept - it is easy to think of things as “real gender” or stuff like that - so when I say they dress as members of their gender - I mean what THEY identify as. To say “real gender” or stuff like that I would run into problems as to use it to mean “original gender” it would of course be offensive to a transgendered person - as it would mean they were less real. But if I use that term to mean “original gender” - it would be confusing to many caring understating people that still have trouble understanding what it means to be transexual. They are totally willing to be accepting and accept them as “real”, but they just are confused about what it means - so they would assume “real gender” meant original gender. If I use “adopted gender” I still might run into issues as it might suggest that this is somehow a choice. Many transexuals really aren’t trying to be assholes when they bitch about stuff like this. Put yourself in their shoes (although some do seem to get a little too upset when well meaning people slip up).
Anyway - using that as an example as how I try and think about these issues. To use the example of a transgendered female - again - born male - they feel in everyway that they are female. So i always try to use the pronoun that feel they are. If the person is actually using a female name and totally out - I would absolutely use female pronouns unless not told to do so by that person.
After a while it becomes second nature. Sometimes I fuck up in the intermediate stages - as while I am adapting to their new persona - I try to consciously remember to use the new/opposite pronoun. So I still had memories of “Steve” - I started to use her/she around that person and say to myself before hand “remember to not do what you normally do”. Then when I started thinking of “him” as the woman “Stacie” (I am using this phrasing to represent my intermediate thought stage) - I actually fucked up a few times as I already started thinking of her as a woman, but still was remembering my “do the opposite” of what you normally do and used “he” - she was totally cool and laughed it off.
So anyway - I am just providing my cis-gendered thinking. My friend “Stacie” eventually got her name legally changed and was very excited when she got her new social security card. I think in her mind it was very rewarding to have some sort of official acknowledgement that she was who she thought of herself as. Even before she used the name Stacie - we started using the term she.
“Steve” was the one to tell me about it. We hadn’t spoke in a while and he called me after “an incident” involving a mutual friend and I noticed his voice sounded a little different. I didn’t think too much of it until after talking about “the incident” we got to the part of “so how have you been?”. He mentioned some vague issues he’d been going through. I asked for more details and he finally asked “have you heard of gender disphoria?” I said - “well I know what gender means - and I know what euphoria means - does this have anything to do with why your voice sound different?” He gave me a web address that had some pictures and wanted me to call him back if I still wanted to be his friend (more or less - I don’t remember the exact words - he pretty much insisted I see it before talking again).
I remember being totally confused as to what I would find, but it was just pictures of him looking like a woman. I called back and said something like “dude - I don’t give a shit what you look like.” At the time I sort of figured this was just a hobby/fetish or something - I didn’t really get it - although the word “disphoria” suggested some depression component - and I understood depression - so I knew I was missing something.
I was using “he” above as at that time “she” was still mostly going by “he” except from one person. I was one of the first people she told, but that only was probably due to the dramatic nature of “the incident” that had brought us back together as friends.
She had a girlfriend at the time (when “Steve” was becoming “Stacie”). I think they ending breaking up - not because his girlfriend didn’t support her - his girlfriend was amazing and was the one that pulled my aside and tried to explain it to me - I didn’t quite grasp it at the time, but she was the one that explained that it was important to I think she might have used the words “the process” that we refer to him using female pronouns and start to use his new name.
The process got complicated - in part cause the first name she picked was - well for lack of a better term - too pornstarish. She wanted a more normal name that more reflected what she wanted to live as - a normal female. But her other friends (most of which were also brought back together due to “the incident”) were very supportive, although none of us got totally it at first - we were given clues by the girlfriend. Later on “Stacie” actually got me a job, but was still going by “Steve”. She started getting more and more comfortable and showed up at work dressed as “Stacie”. Later on we had more in depth conversations and eventually it all made sense.
Anyway - I tend to drone on, but my guess is that depending on where the person is in the process of coming out has more to do with pronoun vs sex change. I think in someways the fact that her friends started to use the pronouns and such may have helped her feel a bit more comfortable in more fully coming out.
So I would much rather err on the side of supporting someone in their process and having that person say “dude - call me he” than the other way around. I could almost see visible positive changes in Stacie’s personality as people would use the terms she/her.
Evil Captor didn’t say straight-gendered, though. He said straight which doesn’t mean “not homosexual”. It means “heterosexual”. Otherwise bi and asexual people would also be ‘straight’, which would be an incomplete picture of them at the very least.
Well I actually didn’t think that was where you were coming from. So TECHNICALLY I agree with every fact you present if looked from a certain perspective, but I think it really makes things more confusing for three reasons:
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It ignores the bisexual and asexual communities - assuming we ignore those - I still don’t feel it works.
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the one I already mentioned - which basically comes down to too many people are confused about this being a sexual thing vs a gender thing. Since the word straight - if used alone - will almost always conjure up images of a heterosexual relationship. I feel that there is so much confusion about the gender vs straight thing - that it muddies the waters. Using your method (and to provide no confusion) would require assuming that everyone understands the difference between sexuality and gender as it relates to T in LGBT.
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I think it is confusing to use in stuff like studies, discussions, and stuff related to this. Cisgender is easy to abbreviate “cis” so - as one example - if you were to discuss issues related to both gender and sexuality - you’d have to mention both (in some cases at least).
I could easily then break the population down like this:
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Cis Gay Male
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Cis Straight Male
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Trans Gay Male
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Trans Straight Male
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Cis Lesbian Female
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Cis Straight Female
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Trans Lesbian Female
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Trans Straight Female
- yes I know I left bi and others out - which
Now using your method you could use - for #2 above - what would you use? If everyone agreed ahead of time you could use:
Straight Straight Male
Straight-Gendered Straight Male
Straight Heterosexual Male.
I think the second one of those is the only one that isn’t confusing - and it seems to be a little long. Of course you are correct - most of the time when people refer to themselves as a gay male in situations like this - they mean that are a cis gay male, but that is in part cause there aren’t that many trans gay men in comparison.
In most circumstances it is unless army to mention trans/cis or gay/straight as the default is cis straight.
And it mostly seems necessary to bring up this distinctions in threads like these. I wouldn’t point out I am a cis-gendered straight male in a SDMB on gun rights for example. It usually seems most important regarding discussions such as these - where it is necessary to make the distinction is you will often have non cis-gendered people in the discussion and need to make distinction about what you are talking about.
I can’t see how using the word straight with regards to gender adds to helping clarify things. Off course if you say “I am straight-gendered” they will know you mean you aren’t transgender, but they won’t know if you understand what transgender is.
I don’t want to drag out the conversation too much, other than to mention that this is basically what it comes down to. Once we get to a point where people understand the issue, it really doesn’t matter what the hell we call ourselves. Until then, it also doesn’t matter. In the first case, anything will be fine; in the second, nothing really (either too cumbersome, too limited, too insensitive). So, long story short, I’m comfortable focusing on the education part for the time being. I don’t like the term cis-gendered, but it’s a long cry froma big deal. When we get to where we need to be, I don’t think using the term straight will be an issue.
Well, clarity, more than anything. Particularly given that, as you point out, issues of sexuality are often discussed alongside issues of gender, it’s enormously more convenient to have a term that’s distinct from existing terminology. It’s much easier to discuss these issues when “straight man” unambiguously means, “heterosexual male,” without any possibility of being confused with “non-trans male.”
You and I must lead similar lives. I thought this might be about something I could help some one with. I am totally out of my element here. No Saginaw 4 speeds, allison 13 speeds, or turbo 350s to be had.
I did learn quite a bit today though, thanks to Unaperson and the other folks who chimed in here.
[OT]
People, please, do watch what your autocorrect or your voice-to-text is doing:
I take it the intended expression was “…it is unnecessary to mention…” but I had to sit there for a nontrivial amount of time to work it out.
[/OT]
Very good article. Thank you for linking it.
Hoo-boy. Rather than ask a lot of boring stupid questions, I’ll just describe my ignorance and hope folks will address it. For example, I don’t know why the prefix (or in some usages, fragment) “tran” is ever used, except to refer to someone currently in a state of transition, whose body is actually changing or expected shortly to change with respect to secondary sex characteristics. Come to think of it, I don’t even know why someone in transition should be referred to by referencing the journey rather than the destination. Once you’ve arrived, aren’t you done trans-anything? If you are any kind of (forgive me) t-word, you must have a thought as to whether you identify as male or female, or why are you in the process of changing? Tell me now, are you he or she, and I’ll take your word for it. Don’t bother telling me who you want to have sex with (unless it’s me, and, alas, it probably won’t be), and then tell me your name. If we just treated people as they
show us and tell the duller of us (me) they prefer, why should there be a trans-sexual community, rather than a few unexpected additions to both sexes?
But straight already has a distinct and common meaning with respect to sexuality. I think it would needlessly confuse the already confusing (to some) difference between gender and sexuality.
Transgender. I never implied I or others were pissed off by “transgender”, in fact I use it myself. I’m saying that if someone asks me first, I usually say “transsexual.” Transgender is broad enough to be correct in every case.
A good analogy would be someone from Europe asking “where are you from?” and answering either “the United States,” or answering “Missouri.” Both are correct, one is more specific.
The “T” has historically been grouped with the LGB due to the closeness of their communities and some overlap. There is a growing separatist movement trying to bring the “T” out of LGBT. I don’t condone nor condemn that; I do think it may be premature.
You would have been more correct 10-15 years ago. Nonwadays as it’s MUCH easier to get correct legal transitions and gender markers, many transgender people will say simply they are “straight” or “gay” or “bi” or “lesbian,” and never mention their transness. Im my group tonight to see Maleficent, three of the five transwomen in the group pass so completely that no one was going to tell we were anything but. Two of the women didn’t pass, and they would openly call themselves “transgender.”
When I’m introduced to someone and we talk about our preference, I simply call myself “lesbian.” I don’t wear my transness on my sleeve. But if someone asks, I proudly and honestly say “yes I am.”