HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost Wrong again. The lack of competition has been cited it many discussions and speeches. It is a serious factor in the high prices.
EP, so I guess you are just going to ignore my post responding to yours about Canada? It’s a couple of pages back.
I do give to two charities currently. If I weren’t forced to contribute to charity through taxes, then I would give more to charity than I do now (perhaps even more than I pay in taxes now) because I would be able to choose how my charitable dollars are spent.
I hear NAMBLA is renaming a wing of its offices for you.
I don’t really think that was called for, RNATB.
True dat. His actual stated opinions are more than adequate fodder for mockery, disdain, and general hilarity. No need to embellish or to geld the lily.
Wait, so I imply he’s subhuman and call him a “cock-gobbling peon” and you say nothing, but one (mild and exceptionally witty) allusion to NAMBLA and you bust out the waggling fingers?
Anyway, it’s Rand Rover. He’s a glutton for abuse. A conspicuous consumer of epithets. A… guy who likes to be called names.
I thought elucidator’s post 553 did an admirable job pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. I was also impressed with how you initially spoke of how economies of countries with UHC were suffering RIGHT NOW! and then you changed gears to talk about how unemployment rates RIGHT NOW! were not important; we should look at historic rates.
In short, your rebuttal was rather weak.
From Mark Twains Letters from the Earth, being a letter from the Recording Angel to a miser…
EP, that’s the response I expected (ie, hand waving). Canada and France etc are suffering right now from permanent unemployment, which can only be shown by looking at unemployment figures over time. So, I didn’t change what I was saying.
Ironic, really, since the French model is among the most dependent on private funding in Europe.
Luci, our shared love of Mark Twain may save you from the wall come the RRevolution.
You are forgiven. Egotist te absolvo. Go, and sin no more.
I’m not interested in opinions either way; I want to see the experiment play out, rather than hearing predictions from people who agree or disagree. I want us to draw our conclusions after consenting adults have chosen among competitors in a free market; I want that to get the benefit of the doubt until the evidence rolls in.
I’m saying their opinion is inconsequential; results are what matter. Let’s get some results before we let anyone preemptively declare it a failure.
That’s not good enough. You want to stop consenting adults from entering into contracts before a particular free market even exists; I need to hear a better reason than “there’s no evidence that more free markets will solve” this or that problem. I’m all for looking at what remains once the market’s had a chance, and then deciding to meddle; that’s when I’d feel we have evidence worth evaluating.
Well, that’s hardly fair; I’m of course among the majority of Americans who feel his insurance coverage is like his milk, in that I am satisfied with the price I pay for both. You presumably want me to pretend I’m one of those people who isn’t personally satisfied with the former – and then you’re asking me whether I remain satisfied with the latter? Good heavens, if I were the sort of person who feels the price of insurance should be even lower, then I may well be the sort of person who feels the price of milk should be even lower. Possibly I’d feel I should get unlimited insurance and unlimited milk in exchange for nothing.
Still, though: you ask whether there are several grocery stores in my area? Yes, there are; they compete against each other, such that adding ten more or a hundred might well not make a difference; we’ve already got several keeping each other honest. I’m guessing that’s likewise the case with groceries in your area; is it the case with health insurance?
Have you only got one insurer in your area?
Well Insurance providers also compete for your business. They’ll compete for you individually. They compete for you in group plans through your employer. They’ll do everything they can to get you to be one to pay them monthly for them to provide insurance.
There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that when the market has two or more insurance carriers there’s fierce and healthy competition in the marketplace to and a wide variety of choice available on the plans and options under each provider.
But that’s not the point of insurance is it? That’s just the “get you in the door and pay us monthly” half. There’s the other half you’re not addressing. It’s the “reimburse me, the customer, under the terms of our plan, for my necessary medical expenses.”
Not much competition there. Because no matter how many providers there are in the market, their goal is the same: maximize profit. And that goal isn’t met when they pay out claims. They’ll gladly take your money and it’ll seem like a good deal…until they drop you and you’re stuck wondering how you’re going to end up paying for the $100,000 in medical expenses that just landed in your lap.
The reason the grocery store analogy doesn’t work is because 99% of the items in the grocery store, when bought, provide a profit to the store. They want you to shop there. Insurance companies don’t. It would be like if Sam’s Club and CostCo provided items at a loss but made their money solely on their membership cards. So you go in and could purchase whatever you wanted at an insanely cheap price because CostCo reimburses the distributor for part of your purchase. Your mmebership comes with a yearly limit that if you exceed you would pay directly to the distributor. Oh and occassionally when you’re buying a dishwasher or kitchen remodel you find out after you’ve checked out that Sam’s Club isn’t paying back anything, they’ll cancel your membership oh, and no returns.
It would be an insane system and CostCo would never ever ever survive in the marketplace…unless the things inside were so valuable and so necessary in our modern life that you’d pay any membership fee imaginable just to gain access to it. And CostCo knew that you would.
They are the government. Corporations have their way with the government because it has been set up that way. It took generations of carving on the American ideal before a system emerged that allows money to have huge influence.
You’re not entitled to the benefit of the doubt because there’s no evidence that it is a good idea. Do you honestly expect the government to enact every half-baked idea that comes along regardless of evidence simply to try different things and see how they turn out?
Fine, then I demand universal health care. We shouldn’t listen to anyone who doesn’t like the idea, because we should enact UHC and just see how it works.
What do you say to the libertarian who says that world peace will break out if we get rid of our military and allow free associations of people to defend our country? You know, let the free market choose the best way to defend our country. I will point out that there is no evidence that this is the case and experts agree it is a dumb idea. Since you reject that line of thinking, I suppose the hippie will convince you that the opinions of experts don’t matter – we should just try it out and see what happens, and let the results speak for themselves.
You are completely missing the point. You are essentially saying that competition magically makes everything cheaper, so I’m raising the point that infinite competition will not lower prices beyond a certain point. Infinite competition will not magically lower prices of health insurance no more than it will magically lower the price of milk. If state mandates are removed, then the price of health insurance for certain plans in certain places will drop because those plans are not as good. As CBo
There are 16 companies that I count that offer health insurance where I am.
There are 16 with approximately the same price. They do not compete.
I have found the prices are significantly different. My quick survey of seven of the plans reveal that the employee share of single coverage ranges from $97 to $273 dollars per pay period. The cost of several of the plans seem to cluster around the $100 to $135 point.
I would be curious how many of those companies offer individual insurance (for people who cannot get group health insurance through their job, or are self employed).