I just don’t see Connecticut moving to a different time zone as New York.
I want plenty of daylight after normal work hours. Leaving work in the dark makes want to end it all. Pick whatever system gives me that. If you can’t give me that, keep the clock-changing system we have now. It’s not a big deal to change the clocks.
Do you mean that you don’t seen Connecticut moving to a different time zone than New York?
The idea of vacation is, or at least ought to be, that you get to sleep when you want.
And jet lag is a well-recognized thing.
Move to the tropics? Or move twice a year far north and south?
And what about people on different shifts?
Stop clouding the issue with logic and common sense.
Sure, but the way to handle that is to have the machines use their own internal time stamps, and then convert them for human use when necessary. The situation described upthread was using timestamps based on human clocks.
It’s why standards like Julian dates or Unix time exist. It allows time to be consistently moving forward. You can move a computer across time zones, tell it which time zone you’re now in (or have it detect it in various ways) and everything just keeps working.
It’s better for the software to make stored times/dates human readable, rather than storing them in a human readable format.
Given that I prefer the status quo, I don’t have to move anywhere. And telling people to move is not really a realistic option for the vast majority of people.
There’s a reason that “standard” business hours are called standard. People on shift work have to suck it up no matter what.
Moving to the tropics won’t get you additional evening daylight. For example - in Singapore, the sun rises at 7 am, and sets at 7 pm (give or take a few minutes) 365 days a year. Then it’s dark 15-20 minutes later - not a gradual darkening as experienced in places further north or south.
First, thanks to everyone who responded.
Chronos (great ID for this discussion) I have to admit that I never thought of your solution and it is a simple way handle this. But - by late December sunset would be about 3:00 PM!
I just found this chart:
It’s a good illustration of how sunrise and sunset times shift during the year, and that the length of daylight available varies from 9 hours (around Dec 20) to a little over 15 hours (around June 18). So it will always require some “fudging” with either clock time or how we adjust our day if we want to take maximum advantage of the hours of daylight available.
In my opinion, you’re right, the best way for the machine and the technologists dealing with it is to have a stable definition of time. I generally use Eastern Standard Time or perhaps UTC when I set up a machine.
My point was more that the choice is not trivial. Some of our machines only got computerized control when PCs and PLCs came out, years before anybody thought of recording the data. Their interfaces were entirely thought of for their in-the-moment use, maybe like the kitchen stove which started to be made with a digital clock and integrated timer. Ethernet was unheard of, to say nothing of wireless networking. The machine evolves. At some point somebody thinks it could be a good idea to record readings, but we’re not about to rewrite the basic controls to make some hypothetical scientist’s future job easier. And if we want to use something different from the time of day people use, there’s a debate about what problems that will cause (which of course we can imagine). So that’s the historical backdrop, and then there’s always more being built, usually intended as a copy of some other plus some carefully chosen improvements.
Essentially, getting the timestamps based on a non-shifting time of day is a project involving debate and compromises, so it’s an investment of time and energy in an environment of understaffed priorities. It’s one that sets me off, which is why I write long diatribes on internet boards about it, but, then, not everybody else feels the way I do.
I have seen a data logger consisting of a roll of paper and a pen. No idea whatsoever what the operators did with respect to changing time zones.
That’s really the point. The natural changes in timing and amount of available daylight is just too huge to ignore versus the size of our semi-standardized “8 hour workday”.
If we’d depopulate the areas north of the snow line we’d have a LOT less whining. Here in Miami the difference between longest and shortest day amounts to just 90 minutes, not the 6 hours in Chicago or even more farther north. Add that huge annual change to the misshapen geophysically ignorant time zones we’re seemingly stuck with and it’s a recipe for angst.
That wasn’t a serious suggestion; maybe I should have added an emoji. But if you insist on having a lot of light after work, the only way to accomplish that in much of the country by messing with the clocks is for a whole lot of people to have to get up in the dark, and many of them to have to go to work in the dark as well. ETA: In midwinter here there are already a lot of people both getting up in the dark and getting off work after dark – and I’m nowhere near as far north as some. There just plain isn’t that much sun and nothing done to the clocks is going to change that.
It’ll get you significant additional evening daylight compared to what you’ll get in New York and points north, though; whether we stayed on DST or not.
I used those before electronic data loggers came out, but don’t remember hearing them called “data loggers”, just “chart recorders”.
The roll of paper kind, in my experience, does not have time and date numerated. Instead, it has regularly printed lines, that can be chosen to be one minute apart, one week apart, whatever. More accurately, you could buy the paper with different line spacing distances, and you could set (or buy) the recorder for various standard speeds, to accomplish various time spacings between the lines. When you load new paper you would often write the time and date on the paper at the beginning of the ink marks, and you might scroll the paper to give some significance to the line positions. That is, if for instance you arranged things to have lines one hour apart, and it was a quarter till the hour, you might scroll the paper so the pens were 3/4 of the way from one (arbitrary) line to the next.
Now, the other main kind of chart recorder used a rotating disk of paper, and these often represented for example one day (in which case your choice of standard or Daylight Saving time would be significant), or perhaps one week (in which case setting its position to an accuracy of an hour would be much more finicky). Likewise people would write on these.
I don’t remember ever seeing any chart recorder or paper that had some intentional provision for dealing with standard versus Daylight Saving time.
Me as well. DST can suck it. It serves no purpose whatsoever at these latitudes.
Sorry I clipped your post, but this is spot on. I also think this is more a bitch on the internet thing than real life thing. I don’t think I have ever heard anyone in real life bitch about this other than in a joking manner. I am the opposite of you tho, I prefer the sun at night rather than the day. If a few kids have to die horrible painful deaths in the dark so I can have my extra hour of sun at night, so be it.
What really gets me is the people that say it takes them days or weeks to adjust. Really? Have they never left there state or country? Is their whole vacation to Slobbovia ruined because they can’t adjust to a different time in a week? God help them if they live near a cutoff line for a time zone. Do they cross into a new time zone five miles from their house and then are so tired they have to pull over and sleep for an hour before they can do their shopping?
These are real questions, not trying to be a smartass.
How does a one hour change in sleep schedule make your life difficult? Have you never slept seven hour instead of eight? Did that ruin your sleep schedule also? Does going to a different time zone also mess with your sleep? For how long?
Are you a west coaster? Every place I have lived the game times never change no matter what. For example, games always start at noon and three regardless of what time we are on. Why are you getting up at 4 when you usually get up at 5? Everyone around you changes their clock too. The time change doesn’t put off when newspapers are out or stores open.
Been there, done that, I never had any problems with it. Your cites leave a lot to be desired, especially the one that claims heart attacks go up 21% when DST happens. The numbers foe the car accidents make me wonder if it’s people rushing because they forgot to set their clocks so they are late rather than losing 1 hour sleep. Plus the gut that claims people only get paid for clock hours and not hours worked is full of shit. His own link proves him wrong.
My life? I’m in the enviable position of being able to set a lot of my own schedule, so to a large extent I can take this shift gradually, though the abrupt shift to dark an hour earlier in winter is discouraging and often results in my getting less done. Sometimes I sleep less than other times, and doing so may well leave me groggy and unable to concentrate well during the day. When I significantly changed time zones in a short period of time, I was thrown off base entirely for a couple of days, and somewhat so for a week or more. Luckily I was on vacation, wasn’t driving, and didn’t have to do anything involving concentrating.
Nobody’s saying this is massively destructive of people’s lives – well, aside from the ones who die in accidents or of heart attacks, whatever you think of the cites. (I’m not going to bother listing more of them; they were all over the place, and if you don’t think anybody’s bothered by things that don’t bother you then I doubt more cites are going to convince you). We’re saying it’s a significant nuisance for a lot of people, it’s not doing anything genuinely useful, and why do it?
I’m saying, I don’t care either way, I just don’t understand how one hour could possibly make any difference to someone, especially once you have experienced it all your life into adulthood. I totally believe it’s a problem for some people, I just find it difficult to understand why such a simple thing can be a significant nuisance, when the vast majority of the population seems to treat it as a non-event.
Thanks for answering some of my questions.
Different people are different.
You don’t have to understand it; you just have to understand that it’s real.
Yes, I know. I’m trying to understand if this is a in your head thing or if it’s a body thing. Is it the location of the sun when you wake up? It can’t just be the hour difference as I expect almost everyone has dozens of nights a year where they get less sleep.