DC's Identity Crisis Ongoing Thread (Open Spoilers)

Cafe Society
281

Expanding on my first comment.

[spoiler]Someone on another board pointed out that Ralph’s apparent dialogue (as opposed to monologue) just makes him look crazier - although they assume the intent was as I described it above.

I’m thinking - and this might just be me, I admit - that it’s mostly a result of the closeness of the Ralph/Sue relationship. Ralph has a pretty good idea of how Sue would respond to what he’s saying, and it would probably make him feel better to be having a conversation with her than just talking at her. Better to serve his desire to believe that he hasn’t completely lost her. So, he mentally fills in what she’d say (or what he thinks she’d say), and continues his side of the conversation. He doesn’t actually think she’s talking to him, but he believes Ollie when he says she’s listening, and he’s pretty sure he knows how she’d respond.[/spoiler]

282

When can we stop using spoiler boxes?

[spoiler]Okay… I’ve read the issue through again, and I read all of the issues back to back. I have to say, I largely agree with Fenris that this conclusion left me kind of cold.

First of all, the way that Ray found out about Jean was just… lame. I mean, take a look at the scene where she brings up the Jack Drake note. What she says comes so completely out of the blue and is so apropos of nothing that on a second reading, it’s actually hillarious.

And while I really try hard not to assign the “sexist” label too liberally… when read as a whole, this series really pushes any and all female characters right to the background. Zatanna is arguably the one who plays the most positive role, and she doesn’t really serve as anything other than a means for the mindwipes (which are, as others have said, just a huge red herring). She doesn’t even decide to do anything herself - every action she takes is an order from GA or Hawkman.

There are two instances of people essentially telling Black Canary to be careful lest she become a victim - GA in the present and Hawkman in the past. And I find it hard to think that with her defiant “I can take care of myself” panel that Meltzer wasn’t calling attention to the fact that BA basically gets what Sue got and worse not too long afterward.

Wonder Woman? I guess she gets that speech in the 1st issue… which we don’t hear. In the only other issue where she plays any kind of role at all, you don’t even see her face. The only other female I can think of who played a significant role was Firehawk, who asked Ralph how he met Sue (Ralph pointed out that it was always the women who ask) and apperantly quits at the end.

Then, of course, there’s Jean, who’s batshit insane, and Sue, who is retroactively made a rape victim and gets a totally-for-shock-value pregnancy. So… yeah, I hate to the be the one try cry “sexism!” but… sexism! And this is so typical of DC, btw. If you’re a female character beware, because your days are most likely numbered. Not a single important event can go buy without at least one female character getting killed.

Anyway, I hate crazy-Ralph if he’s really crazy. I mean, I know GA told him to talk to his wife… but, I dunno, that last sequence says crazy to me. And that sucks! After Formerly Known as the Justice Leage, I was so hoping for a Superbuddies ongoing… so much for that (especially since Giffen is done working with DC as a result of this story).

And then there are the plot holes… it still makes no sense for Dr. Mid-Nite to have ruled out Dr. Light as a suspect based solely on the fact that Sue wasn’t burned to death. As Fenris pointed out, Jean should have exploded. And how did she know to tie a dutch marine knot with a bowline twist or whatever it was? How did she know who Tim Drake even was?

In a way, this reminds me of Meltzer’s Archer Quest in Green Arrow - a fun storyline with an utterly forgettable conclusion (I mean it, I really can’t remember how Archer’s Quest ended).

Lovely artwork all around, though.[/spoiler]

283

[spoiler] Last month, I began fearing Fenris was right on the money about the killer and I began holding off hope that the ending would ultimately satisfy. Having finally read the final issue, I now know I much preferred my improbable }the-Martian-Manhunter-is-involved-I-don’t-know- how-or-why-yet-but-all-signs-point-to-him-and-clever-use-of-his-powers" theory to this clumsy and inexplicable “psycho-Jean-Loring-is-the-accidental-killer” reveal.

We’re supposed to believe that Jean Loring decided that, in order to frighten the superhero community at large and maybe scare her ex into giving her some loving, *that it was a good idea to shrink inside someone’s head * and stand on her BRAIN? No, gee, that couldn’t possibly kill them. And she just happened to bring along a flamethrowing weapon to scorch the place for what was supposed to be a scare? There wasn’t a simpler way to accomplish all this without involving the size-changing suit, incidendiary weaponry and risking lives? What, don’t they have booty calls in the DCU? This whole so-called motive could have been avoided with a late night phone call: “Ray, I’m horny. Interested? Zip through the phone if you want to help out.”

I mean… c’mon. The whole “Dr. Light-is-a-prime-suspect-because-Sue’s-body-was-burned-and-the-League-mucked-around-with-Light’s-brain-once” thing was an interesting development in the untold story of the Silver Age Justice League and on that level, revealing that backstory in this mini-series was an entirely successful subplot. But since it had absolutely NOTHING to do with the killer, it comes off as a desperate red herring.

The killer reveal sucked. Ray Palmer of all people should NOT have figured out what his wife did – it should have been Batman or Ralph, period. The denouement went completely south, passing much too quickly and entirely too much happens off-panel. We don’t see Jean arrested, held for trial, found guilty? We don’t see her defense attorney, getting psychiatric treatment, other help? We don’t see Ralph’s anger, sense of betrayal, a confrontation with Ray Palmer? The Atom gets so ashamed he just dons his suit and shrinks away? Yeeeeeesh.

You know what the saddest thing is? I don’t entirely blame mystery writer Brad Meltzer for this mess. Editor Mike Carlin must have seen the pitch as well as the scripts, and should have squashed this ending and encouraged Brad to dig deeper and find a way to include Ralph in the solving of the mystery and to build up Jean’s complicity. The idea of her being guilty of Jean’s accidental death isn’t a bad one. But her being insane is just a stupid cop-out.

FINAL GRADE. C+. The mindwipe thing gets an A-, the mystery build-up gets a B+ and the red herring use of Dr. Light gets a D and the unsatisfying reveal gets an F. Yes, I’m a harsh grader. This whole mini-series needed a solid ending and I’m afraid I didn’t get one. [/spoiler]

284

This finale reminded me a lot of the Jeoph Loeb / Tim Sale story The Long Halloween. In that one:

[spoiler]We find out that the serial killer (one of them, anyway)* was Gilda Dent, who was killing the mobsters Harvey was after so that he could spend more time with her.

The difference is that A: the final revealation is very well done B: The new revelations about the characters (Batman, Two-Face, Jim Gordon) add depth to the characters while still respecting them and C: Gilda isn’t insane, at least in the legal sense–she knew what she was doing, and that it was illegal, but didn’t really care because she was killing bad guys. Immoral and irrational, sure, but not insane.

*It’s a little unclear who the other was–the police think Alberto Falcone was the killer, but Gilda thinks it was Harvey. Harvey only says that there were two, which could mean any two of the three.[/spoiler]

Askia:

[spoiler]I don’t think we’re supposed to believe it was an accident. She went there intending to kill Sue the whole time; the “It was an accident,” was just another attempt at manipulating Ray.

The fact that Jean is in Arkham means she wasn’t tried and convicted–only the criminally insane are there. I assumed that her placement was done without any official involvement of the authorities at all, or in a way that bent the rules a bit. Given that she had spent some time in the loony bin before, it may have been easier to get her committed quietly this time. She knows far too many secret identities to be allowed to go blabbing them at a public trial, and the line about “determining the right medication” could be an indication that she’s not going to be allowed to do so inside either. Jean is one of the most dangerous people in the DCU to the superhero community–she’s insane, tends to hold a grudge, and apparently knows a bunch of secret identities.[/spoiler]

JThunder:

[spoiler]As I said above, I think we’re meant to understand that it was a cold blooded murder the whole time, and the flamethrower weapon is evidence of that. Jean is, to say the least, an unrelaible witness.

As to why she wasn’t detected by the security devices, that one’s simple. As an associate of the JLA who visited the homes of other JLA ers, she didn’t read as a threat.[/spoiler]

Don’t get me wrong, I didn’t care for it either, and I think that the ending was quite weak, but not everything was a problem. It just didn’t work on the storytelling level for me. For a really well done murder mystery, check out Batman: The Long Halloween that I referenced above.

285

I’d personally say “Use spoiler tags until Sunday” so people have the chance to get it on the weekend.

A couple of additional problems.

[spoiler]
[ul]
[li]Ok. Jean is batshit insane. There’s historical backing for that, no prob. (Although she was megalomanical (“Beware of Queen Jean!”) as opposed to fixated on old I LOVE LUCY episodes) but we can let that pass. The problem is her motive. I’d have no problem with her killing Sue because…oh…say…“Sue was trying to control me with ray-beams but my tin-foil hat stopped her!”. That’s insane and fine. But Jean is not stupid. And um…Brad? Jean dumped Ray! She initiated the divorce proceedings against his wishes. She didn’t have to kill Sue to get Ray back, she just had to say “Hey Ray? I was wrong to divorce you. You wanna get back together?” [/li]
In addition to that, the “I’m a criminal mastermind who can fool Batman for 6 issues, but…oopsie! I made a tiny slip of the tounge to exactly the wrong person”? Please. Like I said, she’s never been stoopid.

[li] A) How did Jean know Tim? I can buy that she knows Batman’s ID and it’s easy to go from Batman to Nightwing. But going from Bruce to Tim isn’t so easy. [/li]B) Why snuff Jack anyway? What was the point? She was already getting the attention she wanted.

[li] Batman’s “Who benefits?” only work because the writer cheated. The normal behavior of every one of these heroes, to knowing that their loved ones are in danger is to hide the loved one (“To the Fortress of Solitude, Lois!”) and then go after the killer. Therefore, Jean’s plan should have the reverse-effect and therefore the answer to “Who benefits?” is um…well…no-one.[/li]
[li] Fine, Martian, Thanagarian and Kryptonian tech, deployed at Batman’s behest doesn’t pick up the “through the phone-lines” method of entry. Not a problem–nothing’s perfect and only Ray has ever used that method of transportation. And I’ll even buy that there’s a ‘safe list’ for people who don’t send an alert* when they show up. But Heat Wave’s flame gun? Um. I can’t buy that that wouldn’t have set things off. [/li]
[li]I’m still pissed that Ralph didn’t do anything.[/li]
[li] I’m also unhappy that the writer cheated (“idiot plotting”) to make things work. Someone proposed psycho-Jean back in one of the earlier IC threads. If we can figure it out that easily, so can Bats. Ditto with Zatanna–if you introduce her into a story, you have to deal with the reprecussions of having her in the plot–and she’s a built-in spoiler for mysteries if she’s written honestly. [/li][/ul]

While we’re at it, wouldn’t the second half of the book have been more interesting if there was a debate about what to do with Jean, who knows all of the JLA’s secrets rather than just tossing her into Arkham with The Joker et al? There could have been a big-ol’ discussion about using Zatanna’s mind-wipe thing on Jean–it’s eas to do fry the brains of The Bug-Eyed Bandit…but to use it on one of their own? It would also have resolved the Batman subplot rather than let it fester out there, spawning bad storylines.

Fenris

*And why is it that I can design a better security system than Batman? I shouldn’t be smarter than him. In addition to all that super-tech, wouldn’t it make sense to have, say, cameras inside the house–hook ‘em up to a computer that counts people going in and coming out. If the number stays constant, no big deal, nothing gets recorded. If the number goes up (someone time-travels back in time to before the house was built, walks to where the living room would be, time-travels back to the present), alarms go off everywhere on the assumption that anyone who jes’ appears in the house is up to no good? How 'bout body heat sensors? And that’s just off the top of my head. Why didn’t Bats think of stuff this basic?[/spoiler]

286

[spoiler]To give the League an answer to the whodunnit. Jack wasn’t the target. Whether Jack died or no was of no consequence. Getting a random crook to get himself killed in a hit on Jack was the point. It looks like it’s part of the Kill the Heroes Families plot, and a dead man can’t say otherwise.

Her plan had its holes - where did the the note and gun come from, for instance - but her reason isn’t particularly difficult to fathom. And it did work briefly.[/spoiler]

287

I was vaguely dissatisfied.

Why the note to Lois? I mean, that’s just asking for trouble.

Her knowledge of the knot she used to hang herself - I’m guessing, barring some yet-to-be-revealed connection to the Suicide Squad, that her choice of knot was a coincidence. I could’ve sworn, though, that when we were shown the door she was hanging from, there was a silhouette behind it … I’ll have to re-check.

All in all, it felt like it was an issue too short. We needed more time to deal with the ramifications of this betrayal and to clean up the loose ends - though, Luthor’s armor will soon appear in Teen Titans, and Dr. Light too… there’s going to be an IC tie-in in Outsiders, with Batman as well.

I think it started as a “mystery” and ended up as “tragic event story to springboard other books this year” - we lost the feel of the whodunit in that last issue.

288

Well, Number Six,

[SPOILER]The security devices didn’t record her presence because she wasn’t preceived as a threat? I don’t buy it. For one thing, this would first require detecting and recognizing her, in which case there should be some record of her presence – that is, if the system were competently designed.

Heck, even the security cameras at 7-11 do that.

There are plenty of reasons why a security system would do such a thing. For one thing, there’s no real advantage to filtering out “non-threat” presences. Second, one should presumably allow for the possibility of imposters and people acting under duress–ESPECIALLY in a universe where body-swapping and mental domination are fairly well-known threats. And third, such information can be important in any investigation, and only a fool would program the security tech to throw this info away.

Besides, as Fenris said, it should have presumably detected her flamethrower (which isn’ t necessarily Heat Wave’s gun, FTR). One would think that it would also detect the Atom’s size-changing technology, though perhaps that’s not a foregone conclusion.
[/SPOILER]

289

[spoiler]Batman is the worst detective on the planet. You know what would have solved this mystery? *69. You *69 the Dibny’s phone, find out where the last call to the house came from, and do some bat-forensics there. Apparently, caller ID isn’t one of the basic security techs being used to protect the meta-humans nowadays.

I’m severely disappointed.[/spoiler]

290

Reading the unspoiled bits, should I buy this, or just read the spoilers and be done with it? Will it waste money better spent on giving some independent a try?

291

Yes, Munch. That thought occurred to me as well.

[spoiler]And even if they didn’t have *69 enabled, they could always have traced the telephone company records. During the course of the story, I assumed that they did (this is fairly basic police procedure), but that this didn’t yield any useful information.

And frankly, the possibility of a microscopic intrusion should NOT have alerted Batman that Jean Loring was the guilty party. There are probably any number of characters that could have duplicated the shrinking technology–Amazo or Braniac, for example.

What’s more, we are asked to believe that Jean was able to function as a competent, high-profile legal attorney despite being mentally unhinged? I don’t buy it… especially without any dint of foreshadowing or buildup.
[/spoiler]

292

JThunder:

[spoiler]The very fact that the technology is so advanced makes the “authorized visitor” theory more plausible. Cameras at 7-11 record everything because they have to. Technology that is capable of recognizing individuals could easily be programmed to disregard those designated as authorized. Jean could have been disregarded because she was an authorized visitor, or possibly the JLA signal device that would be part of Ray’s suit would have done the same–Jean enters too small to be detected, kills Sue, then enlarges to burn her. The security system detects Ray’s signal device, which authorizes his presence, and disregards her as not being a threat.

The flamer makes no sense, though, unless we assume that Jean had access to the security controls and was able to turn them off or delete her presense, and there’s no reason to assume that.[/spoiler]

293

I have to disagree, Number Six.

[[spoiler]It is NOT more plausible that advanced technology would simply ignore the authorized visitors. As I said, it would first have to recognize that these visitors are indeed authorized, in which case their presence should have been recorded.

It might indeed allow these visitors to enter without setting off any warning bells, but there should be some record of their ingress. Anything else would be incompetent design–additional effort invested for no advantage whatsoever.[/spoiler]

294

So, with all these plot holes in the ending…does anyone think we’ve got a Captain Atom-Hawk switcheroo here?

I’d think no simply because the actual murderer was one of the suspects greatly discussed on-line since the beginning. On the other hand, there’s way too much wrong with this ending to feel right. And I generally come away with a better feel from Meltzer’s prose mystery-thrillers.

295

[spoiler]I was not satisfied with the ending as a whole. I can accept that Jean is crazy and is the killer, but there were definitely problems.

Candid Gamera, the silhouette behind the door was in the “review” scene when Jean’s hanging was being discussed. It was based on her testimony that she saw somebody in work boots. Obviously she was lying.

Jean should have been detected and there should have been security cameras in the home that she couldn’t disable in the time she had before Ralph got there.

The bowline knot wasn’t explained well at all. Is Jean a boater? Has she spent a lot of time at sea, where she might have learned that knot?

How did she learn Robin’s identity anyway?

Why do all the Bat-team members seem to require these kinds of tragedies? There was no good reason for Jack Drake to die. In fact, the idea that Robin’s father was aware of his dual identity (not to mention Batman’s) and had to learn to cope with it had started to add some interesting tension to those characters.

I’d say the series started well, but ended very weakly.[/spoiler]

296

I don’t think the bowline knot cum Dutch twist needs much explanation. It is a common boyscout knot, after all.

Still, there is so much that went wrong with this story. I’m pleased to see that the SDMBers, for the most part, seem to feel the same way.

Look, I can accept that someone like Charles Manson might seem perfectly normal to casual onlookers and acquaintances. I find it much harder to believe that Jean could function effectively as a high-powered attorney if she were murderously bonkers. Maybe I’m being naive here, but that just stretches credibility in my view.

And so forth, and so on…

297

True, I was just trying to be funny/snarky.

And I agree with what Candid Gamera said about the mystery,

298

Nope you’re not. IIRC, when Jean was batshit insane in the past, she was running around screaming that she was “Queen Jean”. I doubt a judge would look kindly on this. And shouldn’t her past insanity have been mentioned, it being a clue and all? Even once? I mean, yeah, I personally remember it, but it’s a 30-40 year old storyline that’s pretty damned well forgotten.

Photopat–IIRC, there’s a Bat-editor theory that you can only be Bat-related if you have a tragedy driving you—Batman wouldn’t associate with or fully trust someone who’s primary motive isn’t a tragedy. Like Superman, say. Thus Robin’s dad had to die. Bleh.

299

[spoiler]And another thing - Jean Loring has been insane in the past (how did she become un-insane in the past, btw?). Sue Dibney dies and no one in the entire Jusice League thinks, “Hey, what about that chick who used to be totally bonkers, who knows all of our secret identities, lives in a house protected by the same system as Sue, and has access to half her husband’s advanced technology? Nah, let’s go after Monocle instead.”

Also, I think it would have been better if they had dealt with the fact that Jean shrank and didn’t explode: if she had gained Atom’s superpower for whatever reason and no one knew about it, it would have given the League a reason to rule her out (although not an excuse to just not think of her).

I’m also a little confused by what Batman figured out. At the end of #6, he tells J’onn to contact Ray, but in #7 he says “No, not Ray.” So what’s the timeline of events, here? J’onn contacts Ray and learns that it was Jean while he’s in his head and then tells Batman? Because there’s no way that Batman just randomly figured out it was Jean.

Also, between IC #3, #6 and #7 and Flash #214 (or whatever, the first part of the Top storyline), I feel like I’ve read the exact same conversation between Flash and Green Arrow at least four times.[/spoiler]

300

[spoiler]I don’t think Ralph is crazy. I think his talk with Ollie made him remember that there is life after death (in DCU, not necessarily in general) and Sue is somewhere good waiting for him. It may also be that he’s actually talking to her as a ghost, since we’ve seen plenty of them over the years.

I agree that Jean was lying when she said it was an accident, but I think she was lying to herself too. I think she had convinced herself it was an “accident” even before it happened.

Also, remember she was wearing one of Ray’s old costumes when she was hanging. It was invisible, but I wonder why Ray didn’t realize it was there. I thought he had designed the costumes so he could feel them even when they were otherwise invisible and intangible. Had he not made it in time, perhaps she could have saved herself by shrinking back out of the noose. Maybe she wasn’t as badly hurt as she seemed at first?

Tim is the one who’s going to suffer worse IMHO, since in his book he’s already starting to become more like Bruce, despite his protestations that he won’t.

One other point: I’ve been looking forward to I Can’t Believe it’s not the Justice League, but now it’s going to be a little odd since it’s set right after the events in Formerly Known as…, which means Sue will be around with Ralph. I wonder if there will be any moments in that series when we see links to what’s going to happen to them. Personally, I hope not.[/spoiler]