I beg to differ. Cat’s are de-clawed. Dogs frequently have their tails cut. Both are get spayed or fixed. Birds have their wings clipped. Skunks are de-skunked. [anecdote]I am familiar with at least one dog that was “de-barked”[/anecdote]
You may wish it were otherwise; but apparently pets are, in fact, mere possessions which you are free to chop up and alter to suit your needs.
Silly super_head, no, of course I don’t. I don’t support plastic surgery unless someone is disfigured. Perhaps I should have said Golden Rule[s]. There, is that better? See, everyone has a different Golden Rule. You know, the Categorical Imperative, right? Where, pray tell, do you get Cat cosmetic surgery anyway?
Have any of you twists ever heard of a fish tank? Snakes need homes. How about a nice Sugar Glider? I had a tarantula in middle school…
Over the span of my life, I have lived with 12 cats at different times. None of these cats excessively clawed furniture, or anything else, so I don’t personally see the need to declaw cats.
I’ve heard anecdotal evidence that the younger a cat is when it’s declawed, the less it will effect the cat. That may be something to consider.
I don’t believe I am ever going to forget that you said something so atrocious.
The spaying and neutering of cats, last time I checked, was not performed to suit my needs. If it were up to me, I never would have subjected my cats to these procedures.
But I recognize that it is the humane thing to do, and much if not all evidence indicates that spaying and neutering improves the quality of life of indoor cats.
If you buy a big scratching post, usually cats won’t claw your furniture. [preempting] Yes, you can train them to use the scratching post. Try catnip.
Well, I think that is general opinion. I mean, there are laws against cruelty to animals. You can’t set your pet on fire or beat it, or starve it, but the law’s not going to stop you if you declaw your cat, or crop your dog’s tail or ears, or put your animal to sleep if you decide you don’t want it anymore. Whether it should be that way or not is debatable, but right now it is that way.
Just a response to Tranquilis, who posted:
This may have been true in the past, but it is not true now. At our animal hospital we use a Fentanyl Patch, which is a method for delivering constant pain medication for something like five days. It is applied on the skin - like a human nicotene patch, I guess - to a shaved spot (usually a leg so the patch can be bandaged to prevent the cat from chewing it off) and is quite effective in relieving or eliminating pain. Since it takes a few hours to “kick in,” if the Fentanyl Patch is applied a few hours before surgery, then from the moment the cat revives from anesthesia, the pain issue is not a factor.
As I stated in my earlier post in this thread, we just had our youngest cat declawed. We had tried using Soft Paws (those little plastic nail coverings a few others have referred to), but she hated them. They work for some cats, but not all. Because she had started to associate a visit to the animal hospital with them, she would become quite a handfull; where she was normally very sweet (although very rambunctious), she got downright nasty when the staff tried to handle her there. Because of that, we did not put a patch on several hours before surgery, but only as soon as she was anesthetised before the actual procedure was started. When she recoverd from the declaw surgery, therefore, she was a bit sore… but after a couple more hours she was purring as if nothing had happened.
Two days later she is home, and as happy as before. She runs around just as much, is just as playful, still scratches with her (now clawless) toes, and acts as if nothing has changed at all. If not for the bandage covering her Fentanyl Patch, one would not be able to tell she had undergone surgery just a couple of days before. She is not the least bit sensitive about us touching her paws.
It is easy to attribute human emotions and thought processes to animals, but they just do not “think” the way we do. I’m sure any human would be upset with the last digit of their fingers cut off, but they would also be upset if we kept them locked in a house all day, fed them with a can of food at two set intervals and never let them go outside. I don’t think our cats feel the same way. Our newly declawed cat’s overall quality of life is without any doubt going to be much better now that she is not subjected to the repercussions and ill will generated by using her claws as she naturally would have.
For more information on the Fentanyl Patch, visit the Pharmacy Center section of our hospital website, at www.marvistavet.com. The Declawing and Its Alternatives link in my post above is in the Surgery Suite section of the same website. There is also an eMail link that my wife will answer, if you would like the opinion of a trained Veterinarian who is a board-certified specialist in Canine and Feline practice, as opposed to me (I am not a Doctor, and I do not play one on TV).
(a friend walking by using Richard’s username to post)
There is something else that works great for pain relief in the declawed cat for the hospitalized days post op where the cat would be painful if left untreated. These are local blocks given to the nerves of the feet. There are 3 areas on the foot where local anesthetic is injected and the result is no sensation to the foot for many hours. The blocks can be repeated as needed (but probably not necessary if a fentanyl patch kicks in).
The smaller the cat, the less pain relieving tactics seem to be needed (kittens don’t bear as much weight on their post-surgical paws thus it doesn’t seem to hurt that much. They are usually up and batting at toys or people passing by the cage shortly after waking up from the anesthesia).
Tried it. Tried both carpet and jute posts, tried catnip. Tried catnip spray. No luck with any of my cats with this method. YMMV. Also tried the no-scratch spray stuff on my furniture, tried the spray bottle to its face (my current cat loves this), and the loud noise. Tried covering the couch in tinfoil (just the parts getting scratched), which was actually the most successful, but not successful enough.
While I think it is possible to train a cat not to scratch, I think the cat needs to be willing to train. Not all cats are cooperative (that may be the understatement of my year).
Ah…! This is new to me. I’ll have to enquire of my sister if she’s aware of this product. The nerve blocks I’ve heard of, but as related by sis, were largely un-used at the practices she’s been a member of (she’s junior and rarely is able to set policy). She’s part of a practice in Alaska now, and has relatively little feline work anymore, working mostly on sled-dogs.
On the subject of cat size, her anecdotes match in general yours: The larger the cat, the greater the post-surgical pain.
OTOH, I’ve seen declawed cats that make intact cats look like total wusses. We rescued a mackerel tabby queen, already de-clawed in front, and although she only weighed 5 pounds when she was fully recovered, she could tear you to ribbons with her hind claws. Our 15-pound tom, the one with a bad attitude, lotsa muscle and all four sets of claws, never did the damage she did. She knew when she was going to the vet, and would fight like it was her last chance for life. We gave up being cute and tricky about it after the second time the vet had to put stitches in us. From then on, getting Ginsu-cat to the vet was a military operation, complete with welders gloves and a heavy towel. The really bizarre thing was, once she got into the examining room, she was the sweetest thing alive. Ah well…
OK, got me there. I have a pretty good system to prevent the clawing of furniture, but you have to be there to employ it. Through the carrot–big three level scratching post, and the stick–damn, I can yell, I have “convinced” them the best course is to not cross me. Make sure also that every time they scratch you show them the post, even going so far as to rub their front paws on it to show them what’s up. Water guns work best for repeat offenders. When the cat scratches the couch–SQUIRT! If systematically applied they give up quickly. Supersoaker optional, seriously. I have a cat that had not seen the Supersoaker in four years. We moved, I was bringing it in the house, cat ran and hid. [sub]No, not for days.[/sub] So much for the theory that cats don’t have good memories.
I agree that if you can eliminate the pain (maybe the patch, never heard of that) they usually seem to recover. There are exceptions. I have a friend who got a cat declawed, now it bites everyone. It did not do this before declawing. Please, no detoothing.
Since everyone seems to be reasonable right now, maybe I can ask a question I have along these lines.
Like Dangerosa, I’ve tried a variety of techniques to stop her from scratching up the furniture, all of them to no avail.
It basically got to the point that I gave up. I knew the sofa sucked and I’d be getting rid of it soon enough, so I stopped trying… she won.
Since I assume she’ll want to scratch the new one, since she’s had free reign with the old one, and there’s no way in hell I’m going to risk a trial and error period with a leather couch, I’m going to have her front claws removed.
But… what about her hind claws?
I’m far from an animal rights believer, I wanna get this straight right off the bat. As a more Darwin/Nietzsche-oriented individual, I feel that the fact that we’re superior, from an evolution standpoint, gives us ALL the rights, and when we retire our position at the top of the food chain, someone else takes those rights.
However, I love my cat more than I love most of the people I know, and I refuse to mutilate him to save my furniture. I dunno, maybe I’m just not as materialistic as most folk, but I firmly believe that the people and things I care about are more valuable than any collection of wood and cloth. Of course, that being the case, he claws the ever-loving Hell out of me on a regular basis (I’m usually decorated liberally in scratches from the elbows down), but it’s a small price to pay for the general happiness of my beloved pet.
Furthermore, if he gets out of the apartment (which I’m positive he’s planning to do right now, he’s probably got a harness and rappelling rope in the mail to the apt as we speak), what’s he gonna do with no claws? He’s easy meat.
So yeah. Declawing is badnessessess.
-WanKuei
Where is it shown that de-clawed cats are not happy?
If it can be done humanly, i.e. as painless as possible, where’s the problem?
Urgh . . . I hope you aren’t suggesting that Darwin would have advocated such a notion. There is no such thing as " . . . superior, from an evolution standpoint . . ." There’s only fit and unfit. You should be able to recognize the unfit species pretty easily. They’re extinct.
I am aware that people do these atrocious things to their pets. They are wrong for doing so.
I make an exception for spaying and neutering. The sterilization of housepets reduces ferals, and as such is necessary (but unfortunate) for the common welfare. Declawing cats and bobbing dog’s tails does not rise to the level of “necessary for the common welfare”, to speak nothing of descenting skunks (really, why do you need a skunk as a pet, anyway?).
Wing clipping means trimming some of a birds flight feathers with a pair of scissors. This is done for the bird’s safety, so he won’t fly into a ceiling fan or a pan of hot cooking oil. It is no more surgery than a haircut is, and it must be repeated periodically as the bird molts and new feathers grow in.
Pinioning, or the surgical removal of part of the bird’s wings, rendering him permanently flightless, is very poorly thought of among bird lovers.
I had both of my cats front declawed, but I didn’t see any reason to bother with the back claws since my goal was to save my furniture and carpet. They’ve never caused each other any harm with their back claws since they’re just playing. I, too, tried just about everything: spray bottle, citrus spray, 6’ tall scratching post (which they loved, but it didn’t stop the problem).
My furniture was a wreck. The carpet in my house (my first house, mind you) was starting to get ragged. I could not afford to keep replacing carpet, and I sure wasn’t going to replace my crappy furniture when they would just tear it up. I was tired of bleeding all the time because one of my cats jumps on me, and she doesn’t always wait until I’m facing her to do it. If you’ve ever been startled by eighteen sharp points of pain on your back, you’ll understand what I’m talking about.
Neither of my cats are upset that they don’t have their claws. For one, they’re animals. They’re just not smart enough to be that aware. For another, just as if you’d broken an arm, the pain disappeared. They don’t notice it. Really. They don’t act any different now than they did before the surgery six months ago, except that they’re not as stressed out now because they’re not getting in trouble for constantly scrathing things they’re not supposed to.
CNote, when your cat returns home, make sure it’s getting water if it’s just sitting around. I had to bring a bowl of water to one of mine because she just sat on the edge of the bed for an entire day.
Also, just as a reminder: you can never let it outside again if you ever did before. It’s now missing a natural defense against other animals.
Not anymore. I have had two of my cats declawed (fronts only) by laser. The vet pops out the claw and lasers it off. Just the nail part, no joints or bone were removed.
I took them in one morning, they had it done that afternoon, and they came home the following evening (the next day). No bandages, seemingly in no pain since they jumped and ran around as usual. They still “claw” the furniture. We say they’re sharpening their paws.
Before you jump all over me, I had one very aggressive clawer. She was actually encouraging the other cat to claw with her. She is a very loving cat, but she clawed us, the kids, the carpets, the furniture, everything. I had several long discussions with my vet before doing it. He was the one who explained the laser procedure. I had tried everything, bought every type of scratching post out there (she could destroy one of those cardboard scratching things in a day) and was at the end of my rope. Yes, I was almost at the point of getting rid of her, but didn’t want to see her go.
Both of them are very happy, playful clawless (and indoor-only) cats.
My point was simply that the common view is pets can be surgically altered to suit the owners wishes. It’s not Bonsai Kitten, but it’s still changing the nature of the animal to suit the owner.
Ignoring, for a moment, the question of why one would “need” a skunk as a pet (after all, why does one “need” a cat?), your response has sparked another question:
When you said
I understood this to mean you believe cats/dogs/ etc have certain fundamental inalienable rights, simply by existing, much as people do. Further, you believe surgical alteration of the animal violates those rights. However, now you say it’s OK to alter the animal to suit “the common welfare”. This creates a dichotomy.
On the one hand (the common welfare), you find it acceptable to surgically alter pets. This idea doesn’t seem to me to jibe with the idea of inalienable rights.
However, on the other hand (the convenience of the individual owner), you find it unacceptable to surgically alter pets.
May I ask, how do you reconcile these two positions? On what do you base your previous statement that pets are not to be altered, if not fundamental rights?
If fundamental rights, how is one alteration acceptable and another not? If I am in error about your beliefs, please correct me.
And, coffeecat, thank you for the clarification.