Dead Poet's Society: Wasn't the stuffy headmaster right?

I think it has to do with any call for conformity vs. being yourself. Sure, one current example might be chasing that rainbow, but in earlier years, it could have just as easily stood for having long hair.

The movie X-Men 2 absolutely has an “in the closet” vibe, but the original X-Men story was more about the Civil Rights movement.

By the way, this thread is great. I love that the OP uses very well developed independent thinking to defend the headmaster for discouraging independent thinking! That’s deep and ironic.

It was Neil, in the study, with the revolver.
(sorry, couldn’t resist. Your game looks pretty cool).

In binary. In base 3, he is correct. 2 + 2 = 11. :slight_smile:

If you’re talking professional, maybe. But my son’s origami or my daughter’s fingerpainting are beautiful, whether or not they’re “technically” good.

You cannot objectively judge art on technical merits. I’ve seen paintings that look similar to the oil spills in my garage, and yet they are hanging in elite art museums. What is the technical definition of quality art? Good lines? Vibrant colors? “The thing looks like the thing what it supposta look like?”

This is why there is a distinction between art and science. One has bright line rules and the other does not.

A. Whitman?
B. Poe
C. Ginsburg
D. Byron
E. Burns
F. Shakespeare
G. Eliot
H.
I. Dickinson
J. Shelley

H is on the tip of my tongue…

John Donne

What everybody forgets: east Coast prep Schools are intended to produce new members of the ruling class. These are not people who are supposed to innovate or change things, on the contrary, they are the forces of reaction.
So, they are not supposed to question what they were fed.
That was the sin for which the english teacher was dismissed.

This is nothing but blind bigotry. It is the same as saying that inner city schools are intended to produce crack heads and welfare queens.

Plenty of innovative people went to East Coast prep schools, and the schools are proud of this.

Look, the english teacher wasn’t fired for teaching his students to question authority. That wouldn’t make any sense. He was fired because he was talking frankly with his students about homosexuality. That’s the only reason the parents and the school adminstration become so hysterical. The parents wouldn’t freak out over poetry and Shakespeare, for crying out loud. Why can’t you people face facts?

I know a lot of people who’d say the two are pretty much the same thing.

ETA: Yes, I know there are a lot of differences - homosexuals weren’t kidnapped out of their home nation, and there hasn’t been a time in history when they were generally beaten regularly or turned away from the polls. But I think my point is clear enough.

Not true, not true at all. There is absolutely a science to poetry, as well as other art forms. Things like meter, rhyme, symbolism, juxtaposition, alliteration, onomotopoeia, all work together to distinguish a great poem from your average limerick; it’s no accident that a line like, “What rough beast, it’s hour come round at last, slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?” is far more memorable than “Hit me baby one more time!” Granted, it’s a loose science at best, and beauty’s in the eye of the beholder and all that…

But I’ll admit, that Perfection vs. Importance graph was downright ridiculous.

I honestly can’t tell if you’re being serious or not, but either way, the reason the school administration became hysterical was because a student committed suicide, the parents blamed the school, and somebody had to take the blame for it…I’ve know more than enough school administrations to know that’s exactly how it would play out.

As for your thesis…it’s interesting, but a cursory Google search doesn’t show much about it at all. Care to elaborate beyond just what makes sense to you?

Is it? I suspect if you went up to 100 people at random and asked them to complete the lines:

“What rough beast, it’s hour come round at last…”

and

“Hit me, Baby…”

you’d get a far greater number able to correctly complete the second.*

In fact, I think even I only know the Bethlehem line from another work…Things Fall Apart, perhaps? It was a quote at the beginning of a chapter or something. Oh, and of course, the Angel episode “Slouching Toward Bethlehem”. I think that’s when I first looked it up and found out it was Yeats.

Although I agree that “meter, rhyme, symbolism, juxtaposition, alliteration, onomotopoeia” CAN work together to create greatness, I don’t think they need be present in greatness. And I think “memorable” was the wrong word choice there.
*In fact, I just tried it on my husband. And, yeah, he was able to complete Ms. Spears’ poetry, but not Mr. Yeats’. And he’s a college English prof. :smack: (Writing, not literature, at least.)

The stuffy headmaster was far more concerned about the reputation of the school and the “proper” way of doing things than he was in the welfare and growth of the students. In fact, I got the impression that their learning anything was entirely incidental, while conforming to the standards of behavior specified by the school was held to be more important.

On the other hand, Keating screwed up a little by not tempering his lessons about thinking differently, questioning authority, and challenging yourself, with some pointed commentary about personal responsibility. He may have assumed that they’d get the point about Thoreau’s civil disobedience through the fact that Thoreau was willing to go to jail rather than conform, but being adolescents they probably glossed over the part about willingly facing the consequences of your choices, whether those consequences are positive or negative.

I also think that Keating would have given Neil some advice on achieving his dreams while also at least fulfilling part of his father’s requirements. I believe he guessed that Neil was lying, but instead of calling him on it, he chose to accept Neil at his word. He probably thought that Neil would have to learn his lesson about lying by himself. Challenging Neil would have damaged or broken the relationship of trust they’d built and he couldn’t have known that Neil would react so badly to his father’s disapproval.

Keating undoubtedly changed many of the student’s lives for the better, but had to live with a sense of responsibility for Neil’s death. Though the real blame lies almost entirely with Neil and his father, he would have felt guilty about his involvement. Personally, I think Neil would have blown his brains out sooner or later, whether it was over a future conflict with his father, or after 20 years of an unfulfilling life he felt trapped in.

I think that someone with Keating’s attitude would be a great teacher in real life. In fact, I had a physics teacher with a similar approach; I’ve written about him on the boards before. He used to give us scientifically absurd “explanations” with a completely straight face and have us debunk them. His favorite leading question during these sessions was “why?” and his rebuttals ranged from, “I don’t believe you,” to, “You’re full of crap.” He made us tell him why he was the one who was full of crap.

He made us reason and think for ourselves in the face of active challenges from an authority figure. Sure, we knew that he couldn’t be serious, but his role playing was a good way to learn how to deal with that kind of pressure in a safe environment. Besides which, if you can use the things you’ve been taught in order to reason through an explanation of why lightbulbs aren’t “dark suckers” and why a rocket works even in a vacuum, you really and truly understand the concepts and principles behind the facts. That transforms fact memorization and rote formula use into real learning. Learning how to formulate and defend an argument worked with physics and there’s nothing I’ve seen to make me think it would be less effective with arts and humanities.

Notice the capitalization of “civil” and “rights.” I used caps to denote a proper noun which distinguishes the words from their broad definition and focuses them solely on the organized movement to establish black rights in the 1950s and 60s.

Otherwise, your point is clear enough, and I agree with you entirely. :smiley:

There was the scene where Charlie is telling the others about getting his paddling for the stunt (Ring Ring! “Mister Nolan…it’s God…He says we should have girls at Welton Academy!”).

Keating says that sucking the marrow out of life doesn’t mean choking on the bone.

It’s after the fact but gives a nod to corrective feedback.

I think the distance between teacher and student was greater in those days. Keating was far more approachable than the other teachers, but it still took some nerve for the students to approach him with a problem.

I think Keating wasn’t completely sold on the idea that Neil’s father really gave permission, but he wanted to believe Neil and maybe persuaded himself of the same lie.

Perhaps I was dreaming, but I could have sworn they showed this once on TV where that scene had Neil wearing his Puck costume. It was eerie, like he was wearing the “mask” to conceal the lie. It isn’t on my DVD so it’s probably just me hallucinating again.

I think it’s a mistake to take the successive events of the movie as a basis for real-world analysis. The movie is hopelessly contrived. It’s not an appropriate model for discussing the question on the table.

True. But, N.B.: If Neil had not committed suicide, they would have had no emotional damage whatsoever from Keating’s teachings – not even from any tendency he might have instilled in them to rebel against authority.

I agree. I think it’s like driving a car. For years, kids are passengers. One day, they learn to drive and they get the keys. Some of them go out and proceed to get killed behind the wheel.

What Keating was trying to teach, IMO, was something that a lot of adults don’t know or forgot long ago. Standing on your own two feet and making decisions about your life isn’t a question of “if,” but “when.” He deemed them ready to become adults in that respect.

It’s tragic that Neil died, but the administration/parents etc. that put the blame on him is like saying, “Well, a teenager got his driver’s license and he was killed behind the wheel. THEREFORE no teenagers should get the license.”