Yeah, it’s the distinction between what I said, and what you said I said. There’s that.
Feel free to argue that this is an ecosystem of worth and consequence. Go ahead. I can’t wait to read it.
Then you can explain how filling in the hole in the ground will destroy the landscape. Then you can explain how you know it will look the way you describe, when there is as yet no published plan for how this closure will be done.
Not really. If you need safety equipment to do it, then it’s dangerous. Pretty simple. Climbing a tree is dangerous, climbing down in a cave is more dangerous than climbing a tree.
Yes, life in general is dangerous, driving a car is dangerous, crossing a street is dangerous. Eating food is dangerous, but that doesn’t diminish the meaning of the word ‘dangerous’.
If it wasn’t dangerous then this guy wouldn’t have died doing it now would he? If it wasn’t dangerous they wouldn’t call it ‘the Scout Eater’ would they?
You don’t have to abuse the meaning of the word dangerous to make your point. You could simply say, “Caving isn’t as dangerous as most people think it is.” See? I made the same point that you are making without this pointless debate over the meaning of the word dangerous.
Look up the words ‘subjective’ and ‘objective’ first, as you clearly don’t know what THOSE words mean, as you think that ‘worth and consequence’ are meaningful outside of YOUR OPINION. There is no objective meaning to worth and consequence. The ecosystem is worth exactly what that ecosystem is worth, and whether or not it’s consequential is meaningful to the individual.
You’re just misusing a whole mess of terms.
The way filling the hole will destroy the landscape is by closing the opening to the cave. :rolleyes:
I’m starting to feel like I’m explaining basic concepts to a child.
He likes Nick Cave? 
And I was the first and so far, ONLY one to actually throw some numbers out there to define “dangerous”.
Back to the point, looking at that map and the video, I cant imagine any Real Caver (tm pending) giving this cave any more than a 1 or 2 on the the dangerous scale with 11 being “DANGEROUS”.
The rest of you surface dwellers are defining dangerous as the non-zero possibility of getting hurt.
That’s enough of the personal attacks, and that goes for everyone here. If you think someone has the reading comprehension of a child, needs to STFU, or is clueless or disingenuous, hammer it out in the Pit. It does not go in this forum.
Even with flight lessons airplanes are dangerous. There is always a certain inherent risk to flying.
Although I’m not a caver, just the fact you’re going into a place where, if your light fails, you might not get out strikes me as also having a certain inherent level of risk.
Naturally, someone who actually knows what he/she is going will manage that risk down to be as small as possible, but frankly, the world is a dangerous place and just getting out of bed can be risky. Doesn’t stop me from going about my business, but I also don’t automatically assume that someone in a freakish and deadly situation is automatically and ignorant dumbass.
I do, however, look askance at people professing that something has *no risk at all *in the proper hands.
I salute you for putting up that link, when it provides some emotionally charged stories of how dangerous that cave can be.
–Photos of ropes wearing out after being in the cave for two months.
–A story of a man trapped in the cave for 17 hours, wedged in by rocks and the rescue damaging his intestines
–A follow-up of someone getting trapped within a week of that guy
–Pictures of blood in the cave where someone had split their head
–Pictures of tunnels (seemingly popular passages) where you have to worm your way through and jack knife your body.
–The story of the two scouts getting trapped (and some strange accusatory comments about the scout master not going in.)
–and all that in addition to the guy who just died there.
I’m glad there are people who are attracted to that type of activity; it makes for a more interesting world, and there are tight places that need exploring.
Caving I know nothing about, so I can’t judge the relative danger of Nutty Putty, but it looks easy to get into, popular for weekenders, and occasionally difficult or impossible to get out of. “Dangerous” seems like a reasonable description.
And I’ll add that spelunking might seem more “dangerous” than other activities that produce more actual casualties because it appears to be a horrible way to die.
And finally I can’t image that cave has a significant “eco systm” if people are frequently crawling through it, often taking up the complete passage.
If you could supply a definition of ‘significance’ in relation to an ecosystem, I’d be much obliged.
They could get the guy out easily with a saw. I’m not sure which would be more traumatic for the family. A closed coffin with what they could cut out, or leaving him to rot where he is. Either choice is pretty gruesome.
And if I am hiking hours from anywhere and I have a heart attack or get bit by a poisonous snake or get struck by lighting I am pretty much SOL.
So is hiking dangerous ?
I keep seeing posts about dangers and risks but NO numbers. Throw some numbers out there.
You an aviation guy ? Throw some aviation risk numbers out there and tell us what is or isnt dangerous.
Oh, BTW, I wont say for certain no Real Cavers have never ever ever been in deep shit because of light failure, but at the very best its in the noise accident/incident/death wise…way down there with the other common mans knowledge bugga boo…being dangerously lost.
You can leave my body to rot wherever it falls. I’ll do my best to raise my children to think that this is the optimal solution.
Fine. Define “of any consequence”, then.
That proves my point.
Virtually every caver I know would watch that link and think "What the hell is dangerous about THIS cave ? it looks like virtually any other cave I’ve seen and been in "
So, if THAT cave looks dangerous to you, every cave is pretty much is dangerous by your definition. Therefore, its not a dangerous cave, its A CAVE, because all caves are dangerous.
How big is tall?
How famous is well known?
How formidable is a “worthy” opponent?
How interesting or educational is a “good” movie?
How unimportant is a trivial concern?
I view answering your question as approximately useful as trying to provide absolute answers to the above.
I’ve read about cave divers. A lot of those people don’t make it out. They get lost and run out of air. It’s a choice people make. For some, experiencing life is worth the risk.
I jump out of perfectly good airplanes. I trust my training and experience to keep me safe. Risk is part of life.
Well, see, he used the term in a debate, therefore it is reasonable to ask him to define it. Otherwise, it can pretty much be discarded out of hand.
ALL aviation is inherently dangerous because gravity makes no exceptions.
From personal experience, I was going to an aviation-caused funeral about once every 18-24 months when I was actively flying. About 3-4 serious accidents otherwise in that time frame. Several hundred deaths per year, every year, even with improvements in technique and equipment. The accident rate is going down, but no one expects it to ever go away entirely.
Latest info I had from FAA safety seminars indicated that general aviation is more dangerous than automobiles but safer than motorcycles per mile traveled, but certain activities, such as aerobatics, and inherently more dangerous that going from point A to point B on a sunny summer day. On the other hand, you can certainly kill yourself just as thoroughly in a docile Cessna on a summer afternoon as doing outside loops at low altitude. The safest airplane in the world is capable of killing the best pilot if that pilot gets careless or cocky at the wrong moment.
It’s solely a matter of managing risk. You can’t eliminate all of it.
First, thanks for apologizing for misquoting me earlier. Oh wait, you didn’t apologize.
No, it can’t be discarded out of hand. Isn’t that what you were already trying to do by misquoting me?
The word “consequence” has a number of definitions; I bolded the most applicable (#4) so you couldn’t miss it.
Snowboarder Bo You mean like the victims of Genocide in Darfur are of no consequence as their plight doesn’t impact me in any way?