Life is inherently dangerous because the grim reaper makes no exceptions either.
So, lets assume you went to only funerals of people you “knew” aviation wise.
How many of those were aviation funerals and how many were everything but aviation funerals ?
If for every funeral of you next door hangar buddy you knew who augered into the ground, lets say there was another funeral for yet another hangar guy who had a heart atttack or cancer or car accident.
So, is a 1 to 1 ratio “dangerous” ?
Is a 1 to 10 ratio “dangerous” ?
Is a 1 to 100 ratio “dangerous” ?
As an actual caver, I can tell you most cavers die of everything BUT caving. There are about (rough number) 10,000 cavers in the US. My educated guess is about hundred of em die from just living in a modern world per year. About 1 per year actually die from caving (and that numbers probably high). Your chances of dying just driving around are about 1 in 5 thousand per year. Twice that of recreational caving.
But also keep in mind that the vast majority of pilots are healthier than average for their age, as retaining flying privileges (in most cases) requires that you pass a physical on a regular basis.
There are about 700,000 pilots in the US, and (very roughly) 100 die every year of aviation related accidents. About 1 in 7,000. Still safer than automobiles , but that’s because of improvements in technology and safety procedures, not because flying has no risks. Flying well done is relatively safe, but flying is also, at the same time, inherently risky.
Likewise for many other activities such as scuba divine, rock climbing, and so forth. Improved technology AND improved safety procedures result in increased safety, but those activities still carry inherent dangers.
I can see where more reliable lighting and better ropes/climbing gear and better techniques for avoiding getting lost and evaluating risks likely has made caving safer than it was 100 or more years ago, but it’s baffling to me that you can say it’s “safe”. No, it’s not - get lost, lose your light, get injured in a spot difficult to get to and you can die. If that seldom happens I’d like to credit cavers with doing their thing well, but it doesn’t eliminate the fact that if you screw up or have bad luck you can get hurt or killed.
That’s right. I didn’t. And I won’t, because you used “of no consequence” purposefully, realizing the entire time that it was an undefined quantity. Your latest post does nothing to belie that, since it uses a definition which does nothing to clarify your position.
Well, I tried to clarify. I guess providing definitions to words isn’t enough. Is it that you’ve never heard of the words before, or it the underlying concepts that are escaping your grasp?
You can’t explain what you mean and somehow quoting the dictionary is supposed to help us understand what makes an ecosystem, ‘significant’, or ‘of consequence’?
I did explain what the word “consequence” means. The fact that someone cannot understand the word or the concepts underlying it’s definition isn’t my problem.
You’re the one who is bemoaning the loss of this ecosystem. Why don’t you try explaining why you don’t want to lose it?
The underlying concept, as you well know, is that “of any consequence” does not mean anything unless you include the necessary object, that is, to WHOM it isn’t of any consequence. So, who are you referring to? You? Me? Ecologists? Nature-lovers? Developers? Cavers? Who?
No, actually, the cave has already induced one death this year. Closing the cave will prevent any more deaths. So, in conclusion, sealing the cave is medically necessary to prevent it from causing any more medical problems, such as death.
There will be no more comments about other posters, no more silly snide remarks about dictionaries or the ability to read or understand words, and no more posturing about who does or does not know more on the topic.
If you have a comment that is pertinent to the actual debate, fine. Otherwise, sit on your hands or move on to a different thread.
According to the article the man was stuck in an 18" X 10" shaft. I don’t know how far down he was in this shaft but it would be tough to cut a relief shaft next to him. Short of pulling him straight back I don’t see what could have been done. Shoot him full of morphine, squirt some lubricant and yank.
I’m not going to play 20/20 hindsight but it is frustrating to think someone can’t be extracted in a timely manner. If he got himself in then the tolerances should be doable for extraction. The ribcage is curved so the best route I can see would be to bring 2 thin plates of aluminum up from his sides to bridge the gap in the ribs.
I didn’t realize until further reading that they had actually freed him and that because of a pulley malfunction he became re-stuck. My initial gut feeling was correct in that they could free him in a timely manner. Unfortunately the process had to be repeated and they ran out of time.
It’s a bummer that Nutty Putty cave is being closed. I heard rumors that the man got stuck in a tight spot called the Birth Canal by the locals. But that spot would be pretty easy to pull a guy out of, if you were willing to break ribs and dislocate shoulders.
The one time I ventured into Nutty Putty (or any cave, for that matter) I found a hole in the ceiling just above the Birth Canal just big enough for a skinny guy to crawl through, which then came to a T at a horizontal tunnel about the size being described (10" high x 18" wide). If I was to name that spot, I’d call it the Fallopian Tubes. It seemed to go on forever, but after a while I realized there was no way in hell they’d ever get me out if I got stuck, and that my body was sealing off the air space so that I’d have an unknown but limited amount of oxygen. So I chickened out, and now the dead spelunker is not me.
As far as the discussion about ecosystems, well I’m no expert but I saw no sign of life other than human. It is very dry and dusty. I saw no pools and no guano.