Deadbeat Dads and daughters

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
21

[QUOTE=Mosier]
There’s a lot of self righteous petulant fury getting thrown around here, but the issues are a lot more complicated than “fuck that deadbeat!”
[/quote]

The details may be complicated, but the issues are not: if you father a child, you are responsible for that child’s financial maintenance until it is an adult. Period.

Why do any of these issues matter in the least? If the new boyfriend helps out (which he would probably end up doing; it would be weird to try and split groceries and utilities), that’s fine, but it isn’t his responsibility. If my ex remarries, or gets a boyfriend, that doesn’t absolve me of my duty to take care of my children - they’re still my children, for fuck’s sake. What’s so complicated about this?

These are all cases of selfish, irresponsible mothers. I don’t see how they’re relevant to whether or not the father owes child support. And why is wanting to buy a bigger television set a bad thing? My child support checks are meant to give my children a good quality of life; why would I begrudge them a nice TV, assuming they’re eating well and properly clothed?

Well, now you have, or at least heard of one. My child support was agreed upon without a court battle, and I can see firsthand that the money is spent properly.

I have no doubt that these stories are true. I have no doubt that there are many others like them. However, abuses in the system don’t invalidate that system - they simply highlight a need to police individual cases more closely. And they certainly don’t contravene the principle at the heart of this whole thread (and I repeat): when a man fathers a child, he has a responsibility to financially support it until it is an adult.

No fucking way will I get off my “high horse” about this. As I stated upthread, I don’t feel I’ve earned any special medals for paying my child support on time every month, but I certainly have earned the right to give a hearty fuck you to people who don’t. If the system is doing damage to fathers who are being taken for a ride by greedy mothers, deadbeat fathers are doing far more damage to children who are receiving no support at all, and to society in general, who gets to pick up the tab for subsidized housing, health care and food for those children.

22

[QUOTE=Mosier]
I guess what I’m trying to say is get off your high horses, people. You sound like an angry mob, and you either don’t know or refuse to see just how much damage this broken system is doing.
[/QUOTE]

Are we reading the same thread? Because I’m not seeing anyone on a high horse.

The OP references four children whose mothers aren’t getting a dime from the fathers. Other posts have been about equally divided between moms having a hard time and dads making the best of a sorry situation.

For every mom who squanders child support, there’s a dad who’s not paying and who’s making more babies without a thought for the future.

23

My mom separated from dad before I was conceived. Then she basically packed up us kids and fled across country. Took dad a few years to track her down with the help of an investigator. He ended up paying child support for a short while, maybe a year or two, then stopped. I was too young to know all the details but I think he had a good lawyer and she’d basically stolen the kids so why pay for kids who effectively aren’t yours anymore? This was in the late 60’s early 70’s. Things would be different now I’m sure.

Anyway, he was willing to not be a deadbeat dad if mom hadn’t stolen the kids from him. Sometimes I think the reason women don’t pursue deadbeat dads is because they’re selfish and don’t want to risk having to share their kids with the guy they don’t like anymore and who was basically a sperm donor to them.

Not always, of course.

24

OneCentStamp - thank you for your response to Mosier.

I’ve posted before about this subject - I AM the system as well as being IN the system. Some states suck. Some do not. Some custodial parents suck. Some do not. Some noncustodial parents suck. Some do not. Most importantly, some courts suck. Some do not.

Funnily, people would much rather nag about how inept the system is without understanding it or asking about it. shrug

cosmodan - does she even have a court order establishing paternity? That would be the first step. The state can order the the father into job training, whatever - even from a different state. Enforcing it is difficult though. If he was a right bastard, maybe there’s a good reason not to give him any legal ties to the child. Without a court order he hasn’t any say in the child’s life. (FWIW, birth certificates are as useful as blue ribbons. Legally they don’t do much). Some people, once there’s an order telling one person to pay the other $50/mo, feel they now have 100% control over the other parent. “She spent it on a waterfall in the living room! MY MONEY!!” Well, maybe YOUR money went into an expense account for your child and now that you’re actually paying she can use some of HER money for something she’s always wanted.

Under our old system here, support for one child when a preson grossed over 1K/mo was 25% of that person’s income. So if you grossed $1k, you paid $250 or so / month. The rest is yours. I work too. My money goes towards putting a roof over my head and our child’s head. Food for both of us. Clothing for both of us. Electricity for both of us. Heat - well you get it. If I CHOOSE to only pay half the mortgage (Why should I pay for my child?), well there’s problems with that. Why should the person who doesn’t live there have the ability to decide not to pay? And when the other person DOES pay - well, $250 doesn’t go far if you take into account the things other than shoes, jeans, books. Just because it’s not tangible to YOU doesn’t mean it’s not to the custodial parent.

25

A good father would want to give their children as much as he could to make their lives in keeping with their previous lifestyle. I simply don’t get the mindset of the guy who would begrudge their child the support he or she is entitled to.

If the mother put a fountain in her home…so what? The children live there, too! Child support isn’t about giving them the bare minimum. It’s to make sure they can go to the movies with their friends. That they have an allowance. That six-year-old boys get a bicycle for their birthday. That the teenage daughter can get her hair done. That they can get the A/C fixed when it craps out on a 95 degree day. This bullshit about how you can *live on much less * completely misses the point.

26

Non-Deadbeat, Non-Custodial Dad raises hand

About seven years ago, as a relationship was falling apart, I brought an EPT to the final ‘can we salvage this relationship’ conversation, just to make sure we were breaking clean. She thought it was funny once to tell me she was pregnant, just to see me sweat / see what I would do. Guess what that little stick said? She insisted she wanted nothing from me, never wanted to see me again, in fact. Ummm, if you’re pregnant, it doesn’t quite work that way… She threated restraining orders. I filed a paternity suit. She didn’t contest, And I was paying child support for a year before visitation was allowed. (She kinda ignored the temporary orders ‘not signed by a judge’ was her attitude.) Things got better when they moved to California. I see my daughter a couple of times a year, and we converse weekly at a minimum. Right now, she is out here for her first two week summer visit. It’s the most time we’ve spent together at a stretch.

27

I don’t get this either.

I do not know whether I would make a good father, but one thing I am certain of: in making the attempt, I would mean it. I would want to be there. I know what the absence of my father did to me.

But… what if absence was the best of a bad deal? Would it not be better than abuse? I guess that’s what monetary support is for.

28

[QUOTE=The Sonoran Lizard King]
Non-Deadbeat, Non-Custodial Dad raises hand

About seven years ago, as a relationship was falling apart, I brought an EPT to the final ‘can we salvage this relationship’ conversation, just to make sure we were breaking clean. She thought it was funny once to tell me she was pregnant, just to see me sweat / see what I would do. Guess what that little stick said? She insisted she wanted nothing from me, never wanted to see me again, in fact. Ummm, if you’re pregnant, it doesn’t quite work that way… She threated restraining orders. I filed a paternity suit. She didn’t contest, And I was paying child support for a year before visitation was allowed. (She kinda ignored the temporary orders ‘not signed by a judge’ was her attitude.) Things got better when they moved to California. I see my daughter a couple of times a year, and we converse weekly at a minimum. Right now, she is out here for her first two week summer visit. It’s the most time we’ve spent together at a stretch.
[/QUOTE]

Dude, that’s tough. I don’t know if I could have fought that hard to stay in contact with my kids; for me it was easy (married for years, still friends with the ex). I admire you for it.

29

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I never got a dime from Mr. Not-So-Wonderful and I never pursued it. He saw Kid Kalhoun once or twice a year. The reason I didn’t pursue it was because he didn’t have any money. He barely provided minimal food and shelter for the one that came after my son, and he gave up parental rights of the first two.

He said he didn’t pay for children he didn’t live with. :frowning:

While that might be reason enough to pursue jail time for the asshole, I figured it wouldn’t help my financial situation and he would never be able to fuck with me on visitation and/or custody. Also, it would have put the youngest kid in an even worse situation than he was already in. Plus, my son was provided for by me (with help from my folks for a few years).

Prolly not the best justifcation, but he’s dead now so the conversation, for us, is over.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for this perspective. My daughter lives many states and many miles away from her ex now. He calls occasionally and once in a blue moon sends money. Doesn’t usually remember birthday or Christmas. He talked for months about an airline ticket that never materialized. My daughter is willing to let him see his daughter but he whines, “gee there’s nothing interesting to do there” meaning that seeing his own daughter isn’t enough motivation. I do think she’s concerned about what visitation rights he might have and enforce if she got child support. Personally I think he would threaten but ultimately do nothing because he’s just too fucking selfish to actually want any responsibility for a child.
The most recent time I asked her about this she told me she knew he would try and make her life miserable if she filed for support. He did that when she still lived in tha same state as him. I told her to stop putting up with his shit and file a restraining order. She never would. I think he had emotionally browbeat her to the point where she was afraid to make him angry. But jeez, it’s been 4 years now and shes a couple of thousand miles away. What can he do? If she doesn’t want to she doesn’t have to ever talk to that fucker again. It blows my mind that she may feel obligated to listen to his shit because he fathered her child.

Oh, and he has a decent job and makes more money than her. He might decide to go underground and work under the table if she went after him but I don’t fucking care. Take the steps you need to take and see what happens. My granddaughter deserves it.

I’m very concerned about her emotional health because she not only tolerated the abusive father of her daughter but now she is accepting another deadbeat Dad as a boyfriend and making excuses for his behavior and enabling his complete lack of being a responsible adult male. Sigh!!
When I go to visit in a few weeks I’ll have a heart to heart talk with her and her boyfriend but ultimately there’s nothing I can do but try and encourage her and continue to give her emotional support.

I know {and you certainly know} that being a single mom must seem like an insurmountable mountain of problems at times. I suspect she feels totally trapped with no way to climb out of her situation. I think she’s scared of dealing with so much responsibility alone and is excusing this new boyfriends bad behavior to fend off that fear. She has freinds and family that are willing to help if she just musters a little determination and direction. Dam… she’s an adult now, but she’s still my little girl. … what’s a Dad to do. We’ll see what this visit brings I guess.
btw, It’s nice to read your input on something not quite so adversarial. :slight_smile:

30

[QUOTE=Oregon sunshine]
The way we resolved it was the mom and dad of our kid got back together. Of course, ours is a unique situation; everyone we talk to says they’ve never heard of another example where parents who are apart for so many years reunite to finish raising (together) the teen-aged kid Dad had never seen.

It’s been 2 years now since we got back together, and an absolute hoot. Both parties, however, had to give up their bitternesses, righteous indignation, and feelings of victimization/resentment, and learn to forgive and trust. Maybe that’s why it’s a rare situation. YMMV.
[/QUOTE]

That’s great it has worked out for you. That does seem like a rare situation. I tried hard to treat her ex with man to man respect. we went for walks and talked a bunch but in the end he’s always a controlling selfish childish prick. He doesn’t deserve the courtesy of any civil conversation until he demonstrates he is truly contrite and steps up to meet his obligations as a man and human being.

31

[QUOTE=Sunrazor]
You need to tell him, “No, asshole, that’s the rest of us holding you responsible for the babies you created!” Honestly, Dan, the fact that you aren’t talking about baseball bats right now makes you a better man than I am.

Tipping the ol’ fedora to Kalhoun, too – lady, you deserve so much better!

I have no idea what warped, corrupt force is at work in society that produces men who “won’t pay for kids they don’t live with.” Where in the hell has the concept of personal responsibility and obligation gone!?
[/QUOTE]

I plan on having a very blunt conversation with this man when I go there soon.

I cut him some slack at first because he had recently returned from Iraq. I can accept that as being a traumatic experience. Now months and months have passed. My daughter and her Mom got him a job which he quit fairly quickly with some lame excuse. After the comment he made to my son I intend to tell him very plainly that I can’t muster any respect or consideration for him. Yeah, maybe you’ve got issues. You can wallow in them or deal with them. Either way don’t make excuses for yourself and then expect others to “understand” Grow the fuck up and be some kind of man. If you need professional help then get it.

32

[QUOTE=Missy2U]
I have no idea, and frankly, the whole mess my ex made of his obligations to my son make me weep. He doesn’t see him (hasn’t in ten years I believe it is), when he did it was awful, in 17 years he’s paid $100 of support to my son, the way his father treats him and me makes my son, and me, literally cry. The whole subject is very very upsetting - in fact, I could probably use some therapy to deal with the anger I have about it. :frowning:
[/QUOTE]

Did you take him to court to get child support? I f not them why didn’t you?

IMHO if someone repeatedly treats you badly, with no consideration, or respect then they forfeit the right to be in your circle in any way. you have to purposely claim your right to demand basic rights without apology or explanation to them. That means getting as much child support as you can through the legal system and not putting up with any bullshit from the other person.

It’s tragic and difficult for a child to feel like their Dad doesn’t really care about them but at some point they have to try and understand that it’s not their fault and life can go on and still be good.

33

[QUOTE=gwendee]

As for the OP and why would she accept such behavior? I don’t have an answer. For me even when I was going through the worst bits I would have thoughts of “You’re smarter than this, how did you let this happen to you?” but my intellectual understanding of my situation was very different from my emotional experience of it. I think that’s true for lots of folks.

I think it’s great that you’re in her corner. Knowing that might make her able to make some changes. Best wishes.
[/QUOTE]

My daughter is a smart wonderful warm person. I’m convinced her situation is some emotional thing that even she doesn’t recognize. Part of it is how insurmountable her problems might seem. Part may be a feeling that she somehow doesn’t deserve any better. it worries me but she is an adult and many miles away. There’s only so much I can do.

34

[QUOTE=AuntiePam]
Maybe your daughter thinks that deadbeat dads are the norm. She has personal experience with two of them – maybe she’s never met the other kind.
[/QUOTE]
Well I kinda resent that. She has met the other kind and I’m it.

Do you have any reason to believe she’s reading this thread?

I think the longer these guys live this dishonorable and dishonest shadow life the harder it is to change things. If they have any friends and family that really care about them then they should do whatever they can to make these jerks grow up and face responsibility.
If they are working and barely surviving that’s one thing, but my ire really rises to find men who can afford to pay something take steps to avoid doing so. That’s my daughters ex.

If I had the time and money I’d spend time near where he works and at his favorite nightspots, outside his house , with a big sign declaring he’s a deadbeat Dad.

35

[QUOTE=OneCentStamp]
raises hand

I’m very fortunate in my employment; my current job pays more than any I’ve ever had in the past. And even now, my child support is close to half my take-home pay. It’s high enough that the people who report to me (single twentysomethings in college, for the most part) take home bigger checks than I do, and drive nicer cars.

But even in the past, when I was between jobs or had lesser-paying jobs, I’ve never missed a payment. Even when I’ve had to live on ramen and multivitamins for the last three days of a pay period, or dig change out from under the floormats to buy $3.00 worth of gas, my kids have lived in a comfortable home, eaten good food, and had decent clothes to wear, and my ex has never had to accept any kind of government assistance.

And I’m not saying any of this to glorify myself, or seek praise. In fact, I’d be a little uncomfortable with someone praising me for doing this. All I’m doing is what I’m supposed to do. It should be the norm.
[/QUOTE]

I respect that and I agree. The honorable thing is to do what it takes to meet your responsibility. I made child support payments for years myself. It wasn’t easy because I didn’t make a lot of money but I drove cheap second hand cars did what I had to. I’m ashamed to say sometimes I was late and got behind but I manged to catch up and paid until she was 20. I wish I could have done more and never begrudged a cent. I have zero sympathy for deadbeat Dads.

36

What would you all think of a guy who paid his child support religiously but never saw his kid because things got so bad between him and the kid’s mother that he felt the kid would be harmed by being in the middle of the strife, and so bowed out? Is that a deadbeat dad, or is it only a dad who doesn’t pay? Not trying to be snarky or argumentative, just genuinely curious about the meaning of terms here.

37

[QUOTE=Mosier]
There’s a lot of self righteous petulant fury getting thrown around here, but the issues are a lot more complicated than “fuck that deadbeat!”

To the OP, does the new boyfriend help take care of your daughter’s child? Does your grandchild really need three parents supporting it? Do you have any idea where dad number 1 is, or what he’s doing? Chances are you don’t. Chances are that child support checks help mommies live a two-income lifestyle with only one income, or a three-income lifestyle with only two incomes.
.
[/QUOTE]

I started to respond here but I realized I would be forced to dilute what I was feeling to keep it in this thread…So to hell with that.

My response is in the Pit here

38

[QUOTE=Rubystreak]
What would you all think of a guy who paid his child support religiously but never saw his kid because things got so bad between him and the kid’s mother that he felt the kid would be harmed by being in the middle of the strife, and so bowed out? Is that a deadbeat dad, or is it only a dad who doesn’t pay? Not trying to be snarky or argumentative, just genuinely curious about the meaning of terms here.
[/QUOTE]

Sigh!! I feel so bad when I see people hurting their kids by hanging on to anger and resentment and then one parent uses the kids to hurt the other.

I realized the anger and resentment I was harboring after I got divorced was hurting my kids but fortunately I saw it and was able work with my ex to put the kids first.

ftr, a deadbeat dad is someone who doesn’t help financially support his children.
The emotional issues are more complicated and the individual must make the call they truly feel is best.

Somewhere along the way one party or the other has to let go of anger and resentment and try and put the welfare of the children first. I wouldn’t give up on visitation too easily. The courts can arrange visitation where the parents don’t have to communicate at all. That usually helps.

39

[QUOTE=MissTake]
OneCentStamp - thank you for your response to Mosier.
[/QUOTE]
Seconded…his is much more polite than mine :mad:

Well the child has his last name and he’s on the BC. I’m sure if she sued for support a paternity test would be required.

I think that’s a genuine concern for her. He was and is a right bastard who seemed to enjoy screwing with her emotionally. If she took him to court he might screw with her again just for spite. They are several states apart so visitation would be complicated and I suspect he doesn’t want any anyway.
He does have a decent job and makes fair money, He can afford boy toys like motorcycles and such. I’m hoping he’s got enough invested in his life and job by now that he won’t just abandon it to work under the table.

what I wonder about is how do guys like this ever hope to have a decent relationship with another woman. Do they just hope she never discovers what a lying scumbag they are.

I insisted my ex go after my step sons biological father when the kid was 12. His Bio Dad lived in the same city and had a successful business, but had never once acknowledged his son. I’m not sure but I think his wife at the time did not know he had a son in town. After he lost and had to pay they were divorced shortly after.

He would also owe several years of back child support at this point.

40

[QUOTE=AuntiePam]
Are we reading the same thread? Because I’m not seeing anyone on a high horse.

The OP references four children whose mothers aren’t getting a dime from the fathers. Other posts have been about equally divided between moms having a hard time and dads making the best of a sorry situation.

For every mom who squanders child support, there’s a dad who’s not paying and who’s making more babies without a thought for the future.
[/QUOTE]

We’re reading the same thread. I’ve seen too many “stick it to him! loser deadbeats!” replies to count.

The mothers aren’t getting a dime from the fathers. That can’t be debated, and I’ll definitely accept it as truth. What nobody seems to be asking is “why not?” A simple court order, a phone call, and a few faxed documents to a guy’s place of employment ends up with automatic deductions from his paychecks. A guy can not be legally employed without paying child support, if a court orders him to. So why isn’t the mom getting anything?

I don’t think that squandering moms equal deadbeat dads leaving their children destitute. There’s so much more emotional baggage in the statement “he’s not taking care of his own blood!” than there is in “she’s wasting my money!”, so we take note of the former so much more readily. A better comparison would be “how many moms actually use child support to give their children a better life” compared to “how many moms squander child support”.

None of this is even important, anyway. Everyone seems to be angry at me for suggesting that child support is used more punitively than otherwise. A good example is Cosmodian here

who seems so happy that the system stuck it to this guy. Child support seems to have ruined his life, which validates Cosmo’s opinion that he’s a bad guy. Not a word about how important that money was for the kid’s future, or how it improved his quality of life, though.

I’m not even blaming him for having that reaction, either. We’re all conditioned to think of child support as a way to punish someone, but when it gets suggested that MAYBE we ought to think of some different criteria to validate child support laws there’s no end to the people who want to call me a heartless jackass.