Deadbeat Dads and daughters

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
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Oh man, I wasn’t even close with the user name. There wasn’t any offense meant by screwing it up, Cosmosdan. I will make a better effort to get user names correct in the future, and thanks for pointing it out.

By the way, the whole discussion sort of got sidetracked right at the start, and I never got a chance to address what your original post was actually about - your daughter and the men she chooses. I see a lot of my (much) younger sister in your description of your daughter. She’s beautiful and intelligent, has a lot of empathy for people, and makes friends easily. She dates terrible guys, though. One guy she’s been hung up on for the past year or so has broken up with her at least twice (that I know of) to date other people, and each time she waited patiently for him to get bored with the new girl and come back. He’s a liar, a violent criminal (he’s been arrested for using a knife to threaten someone), and he was expelled from three high schools before dropping out.

I don’t know why she chooses guys like this. It’s a pretty helpless feeling to watch someone you love make choices that hurt them, but I don’t know any kind of “intervention” that might help. The best I can do is spend time with her, and be her friend. It would probably be a lot different if I were her father instead of her brother, but our folks are tearing their hair out trying to get through to her. I think she might be choosing these guys because of some nurturing instinct that drives her to help or save someone. Does that make sense? Maybe your daughter just wants to feel like she’s lifting someone up, and doesn’t recognize that she’s really just being pulled down.

Edit: My sister isn’t an adult yet, like your daughter is. She’s starting her senior year of high school in the fall, and she’s almost 10 years younger than me.

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[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Ha, never doubted it. Our discussions up to now have been in an area that we don’t agree on. It’s nice to discover a less “what if” part of life that we seem to agree on. It covers the kind of pragmatic details that turns a font and screen name into a real person. Me likey.
[/quote]
Yup…a more down-to-earth (pun intended) conversation is very refreshing! :wink:

It’s difficult to maintain “neutral” ground when someone continually lets you down. I remember when Kid Kalhoun was in love with a very smart girl who left high school in her junior year to go to college. Well, Kid Kalhoun, who had been fucking off for a couple years in school, dropped out and just hung around with her at school, kind of pretending to go to college (I know…there aren’t enough :rolleyes: in the world…).

Anyhoo…he came to me and asked if he could have his “college fund money” so he could begin to live his adult life. After I picked myself up off the floor when my laughing fit subsided, I told him that since his father didn’t contribute anything to his upbringing or daily support, I had just assumed he was going to take care of the college fund, and that he should ask him about it.

Now…that was wrong and I know it. But I was so pissed off about the entire situation that I just blurted it out. Shortly after that, Kid Kalhoun moved down to Kentucky to live with his dad (in their two-room shack with no plumbing in the middle of nowhere). That lasted 3 days. I think the reality of the situation had kicked in and he saw his dad for the irresponsible, selfish person he was.

I always gave the ex full access to the Kid. I didn’t want him to blame me for a lack of relationship with his father. His dad made little effort to maintain the relationship. A couple phone calls and a visit or two each year. I was hardly surprised.

My kid got lucky in that respect. He got a letter from dad from jail! WooHOO! :rolleyes: Kid Kalhoun didn’t know that, which is probably a good thing (he knows now).

I don’t think you mentioned how old Daughter and Boyfriend are, but I still say you shouldn’t discuss it with him. I cannot think of one way to do it that doesn’t scream, “I don’t like you and I think you’re a bad influence on my family.” If something was going to change his behavior, you’d think it would be the love he feels for his children; not a guy who disapproves of his choices. YMMV.

Tough situation. I hope you’ll report back on how it goes.

63

[QUOTE=Mosier]
Oh man, I wasn’t even close with the user name. There wasn’t any offense meant by screwing it up, Cosmosdan. I will make a better effort to get user names correct in the future, and thanks for pointing it out.

By the way, the whole discussion sort of got sidetracked right at the start, and I never got a chance to address what your original post was actually about - your daughter and the men she chooses. I see a lot of my (much) younger sister in your description of your daughter. She’s beautiful and intelligent, has a lot of empathy for people, and makes friends easily. She dates terrible guys, though. One guy she’s been hung up on for the past year or so has broken up with her at least twice (that I know of) to date other people, and each time she waited patiently for him to get bored with the new girl and come back. He’s a liar, a violent criminal (he’s been arrested for using a knife to threaten someone), and he was expelled from three high schools before dropping out.

I don’t know why she chooses guys like this. It’s a pretty helpless feeling to watch someone you love make choices that hurt them, but I don’t know any kind of “intervention” that might help. The best I can do is spend time with her, and be her friend. It would probably be a lot different if I were her father instead of her brother, but our folks are tearing their hair out trying to get through to her. I think she might be choosing these guys because of some nurturing instinct that drives her to help or save someone. Does that make sense? Maybe your daughter just wants to feel like she’s lifting someone up, and doesn’t recognize that she’s really just being pulled down.

Edit: My sister isn’t an adult yet, like your daughter is. She’s starting her senior year of high school in the fall, and she’s almost 10 years younger than me.
[/QUOTE]

I see the similarities.You are so right. It hard to see people you love hurt themselves, especially when you see how much potential they have. My son lives about 40 minutes away from his sister and they see each other fairly often. Their kids play together and it’s a joyful sight to see. He offered to let his sister live with him and his family for a minimum fee so she could go to night school or something. She declined. Instead she lives with her Mom in what I would call a less emotionally healthy environment.
Somewhere along the way my daughter was wounded emotionally. It pains me to realize that my and her mothers divorce and the years that followed were part of it. After high school she took steps to make her life better and was succeeding until she met and had a child with her abusive ex boyfriend. It broke my heart when I realized how long she had stayed in a relationship with him while he treated her horribly. She seems to think she doesn’t deserve any better but can’t really admit that. Instead she hopes things will get better and makes excuses and justifies actions while doing little to improve her situation.

I think you’re partly right. Sometimes when we feel low ourselves we seek out people who are a little bit lower to help us feel good.

Well, I hope both she and your little sister see the light sooner rather than later. Allowing others to treat you with no respect is a sign we don’t really respect ourselves.

I’ll add that even though we don’t agree on this particular subject I respect the way you let me vent without responding in kind. This is an emotional issue for me as you can tell.

peace

64

:smiley:

Ah those little magic moments of parenthood. I have a few jewels like that. I’m not sure what was wrong about how you handled it. Kids seem to go through a phase where they want all the freedom of choice that adulthood brings with very little of the responsibility and consequences. That’s when they need that kick in the ass I mentioned before. Nothing wrong about that.

My daughter stayed in the state her ex lived in so he and his daughter could have a relationship. His response was to continue to emotional harass her and fuck with her financially until her only recourse was to leave the state and move to where her family could help her out.

Even though my stepson’s Dad put “no contact” into the CS ruling after my son graduated his bio Dad got in touch. Even then my son held onto the hope that he could have a decent relationship with his bio Dad. He found out fairly quickly that it wasn’t going to happen. At least it helped him settle things in his mind and move on. He’s doing great.

that is special. My son had friends that went to jail and almost went himself. It was a pivotal moment and I’m incredibly happy that he was able to see the light and turn things around. I remember the conversation we had in which he told me he realized he had to stop blaming others and take responsibility for his own choices. I almost jumped up and screamed Hallelujah!!

Later in August I will.
My daughter is 26 her boyfriend is 28. My granddaughter will be five this year.
I’ll consider what you said about talking to him. Even though I vented here it’s not just about how he affects my daughter. I have compassion for him as a human being. I don’t know what his emotional issues might be or what brought him to where he is but he still has to take responsibility for his actions and choices. It’s not about others opinions. I doubt he will ever respect himself if he can’t muster the courage to get his life together. I see that as a terrible waste. I hope he will see that through my directness and my love for my daughter I still have concern for him as a person. I may not respect the choices he’s making right now but that doesn’t mean I harbor ill will or wish anything bad on him.

I also want to tell remind my daughter that she’s not loving him or herself by enabling him to continue on this path. Drawing a line for him would be an act of tough love for both of them. Something like
“Get a job in the next 30 days or don’t come back”

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[QUOTE=elbows]
Dead beat dads and daughters.

But back to what real ‘deadbeats’ are. Guys that don’t see their kids. Or consider having them in the house while they work or watch tv to be raising them.
[/QUOTE]

Wrong. You’re talking about emotional support and that is a different issue. Deadbeat Dad’s are dads that don’t pay.

Kalhoun is right. Your wording is a bit creepy.

Yes daughters need a strong loving father figure but what steers them the most in their future relationships IMO is the relationship between their Mom and their Dad or their father figure.

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[QUOTE=OneCentStamp]
If you father a child, you are responsible for that child’s financial maintenance until it is an adult. Period.
[/QUOTE]
Her Body, Her Choice, His Responsibility, eh?

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[QUOTE=1010011010]
Her Body, Her Choice, His Responsibility, eh?
[/QUOTE]
Or, to quote another old adage: You play, you pay. Why wouldn’t it be his responsibility as well as the mother’s?

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[QUOTE=1010011010]
Her Body, Her Choice, His Responsibility, eh?
[/QUOTE]

If he chooses her body, and a child results, yes it is his responsibility.

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[QUOTE=1010011010]
Her Body, Her Choice, His Responsibility, eh?
[/QUOTE]

A child is actually the responsibility of the mother as well as the father; it just tends to be easier for the father to ignore that responsibility. And you know this as well as I do, so why come in here and be snide?

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[QUOTE=SnakesCatLady]
If he chooses her body, and a child results, yes it is his responsibility.
[/QUOTE]

Much agreed. Say I, as a woman, had a baby, and six months into the pregnancy, I decided I didn’t want to take responsibility for it. Too late to get an abortion, so I just dump and abandon it after giving birth. Women who dump their babies without pursuing some sort of means of support for the kid (adoption or safe haven) are pretty much universally reviled. So why shouldn’t men be held to the same standards?

Responsibility goes both ways. I wish some of the young women I know (my sister, her friends–some of whom are already pregnant/parents and alone at age 21) could read this thread and see what kind of things happen when they make the choice to risk unwanted pregnancy. I always say, use protection if you don’t want a kid, and use TWO forms of protection if you don’t want a kid with this person.

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[QUOTE=Millit the Frail]
Women who dump their babies without pursuing some sort of means of support for the kid (adoption or safe haven) are pretty much universally reviled. So why shouldn’t men be held to the same standards?
[/QUOTE]
Most nations have infanticide exceptions in their homicide laws. This is interesting, too.

“You play, you pay.” is an incredibly not popular “old adage” when it comes to a discussion of a woman’s choice to avoid parenthood.
[Quote=SnakesCatLady]
If he chooses her body, and a child results, yes it is his responsibility.
[/quote]
So then a guy can depend on a child resulting if he gets a girl pregnant? Does he have cause if she interferes with this expectation?
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp]
A child is actually the responsibility of the mother as well as the father; it just tends to be easier for the father to ignore that responsibility.
[/QUOTE]
So it’s fine and just to tell a man “You made the choice to have sex. Now you bear the responsibility for your actions.” but is oppression to suggest the same to a woman. And because it’s a grave injustice to expect women to be forced into parenthood for their “choice to have sex”, they are presented with myriad options to preempt or abdicate their parenthood. If, though, she chooses to force parenthood on a male, that’s just deserts. This is coherent?

Edit: This is moving rapidly towards a hijack. If you’d like to discuss this further, Pit me.

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[QUOTE=1010011010]
“You play, you pay.” is an incredibly not popular “old adage” when it comes to a discussion of a woman’s choice to avoid parenthood.
[/QUOTE]

I’ll bet it isn’t popular amongst those who want to play without paying. We’re not talking about a woman’s choice to avoid parenthood. She WANTS parenthood. That’s the point. Her rights trump yours. Plain and simple. If you can’t deal with the consequences of sex that leads to parenthood, don’t play.

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[QUOTE=1010011010]
So it’s fine and just to tell a man “You made the choice to have sex. Now you bear the responsibility for your actions.” but is oppression to suggest the same to a woman. And because it’s a grave injustice to expect women to be forced into parenthood for their “choice to have sex”, they are presented with myriad options to preempt or abdicate their parenthood. If, though, she chooses to force parenthood on a male, that’s just deserts. This is coherent?

Edit: This is moving rapidly towards a hijack. If you’d like to discuss this further, Pit me.
[/QUOTE]

I don’t think this is a hijack at all; I think it’s very much on topic. The OP is welcome to correct me if I’m wrong. And there’s no need to Pit you for your point of view here.

And yes, the statement quoted above, which incidentally does coincide with my view, is coherent and just. A man’s choice of whether or not to have a child is over as soon as his sperm makes its merry way up the tunnel o’ love. The decision is no longer in his hands because the fetus is not living inside his body, subsisting on his energy and nutrients. If it was, the choice of killing that fetus or allowing it to live would be his.

74

[QUOTE=1010011010]
Most nations have infanticide exceptions in their homicide laws. This is interesting, too.“You play, you pay.” is an incredibly not popular “old adage” when it comes to a discussion of a woman’s choice to avoid parenthood.So then a guy can depend on a child resulting if he gets a girl pregnant? Does he have cause if she interferes with this expectation?So it’s fine and just to tell a man “You made the choice to have sex. Now you bear the responsibility for your actions.” but is oppression to suggest the same to a woman. And because it’s a grave injustice to expect women to be forced into parenthood for their “choice to have sex”, they are presented with myriad options to preempt or abdicate their parenthood. If, though, she chooses to force parenthood on a male, that’s just deserts. This is coherent?

Edit: This is moving rapidly towards a hijack. If you’d like to discuss this further, Pit me.
[/QUOTE]

She did not choose to force parenthood on him, unless she forced him to get an erection, forced him to put that erection in her vagina, and forced him to have an orgasm. If she did those things, I can see where a judge might not hold him responsible for child support. If he made the choice to have sex, he took the chance that he would be choosing to become a father.

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[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I’ll bet it isn’t popular amongst those who want to play without paying. We’re not talking about a woman’s choice to avoid parenthood. She WANTS parenthood. That’s the point. Her rights trump yours. Plain and simple. If you can’t deal with the consequences of sex that leads to parenthood, don’t play.
[/QUOTE]
That’s right. Let’s remember that. Her rights trump his. Once the kid is born, not only do her rights trump his, but the kid’s rights trump his.

Let’s not kid ourselves there’s any sort of equal rights or equality about it. Men are at the bottom of the whole rights thing. Most places, they have no rights at all. There’s no ROE vs. WADE… FOR MEN

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[QUOTE=levdrakon]
That’s right. Let’s remember that. Her rights trump his. Once the kid is born, not only do her rights trump his, but the kid’s rights trump his.

Let’s not kid ourselves there’s any sort of equal rights or equality about it. Men are at the bottom of the whole rights thing. Most places, they have no rights at all. There’s no ROE vs. WADE… FOR MEN
[/QUOTE]

It doesn’t seem specific about *exactly * what they are proposing. What exactly does the man get to choose once the woman is pregnant? Can he choose to compel her to get an abortion or an he just say “I don’t want to be a dad” and leave this woman and child to fend for themselves. Those two choices seem pretty fucked up to me and open a whole Pandora’s of possible abuse.

I know there are some woman who trick men into being Dads. A few women have done things like inseminating themselves after oral sex or using sperm from a condom. It’s a despicable emotionally twisted thing to do. Still if it results in a baby someone has to be responsible to care for that child. Who should it be? Just the Mom. Other taxpayers through social services? What this sounds like to me is men want to able to have sex with being held responsible if an unintended pregnancy results. The problem I see is that means someone else has to be responsible.

Men have the right to choose already. We can choose not to have sex unless we’re sure of the woman and that the risks of pregnancy are almost nil. If we don’t do that then we know before we do the deed that pregnancy could result. If we knowingly choose to take that risk I’d say we’re responsible for the consequences.

You can whine about no equal rights and make snide comments but unless you have some realistic suggestions about a workable alternative it’s just empty bullshit.

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[QUOTE=OneCentStamp]
I don’t think this is a hijack at all; I think it’s very much on topic. The OP is welcome to correct me if I’m wrong. And there’s no need to Pit you for your point of view here.

And yes, the statement quoted above, which incidentally does coincide with my view, is coherent and just. A man’s choice of whether or not to have a child is over as soon as his sperm makes its merry way up the tunnel o’ love. The decision is no longer in his hands because the fetus is not living inside his body, subsisting on his energy and nutrients. If it was, the choice of killing that fetus or allowing it to live would be his.
[/QUOTE]

No, I don’t think this is a hijack and I think you succinctly captured the essence of the situation. Well done. We’ll see if our visitor has any argument to make that is…what was his word?..coherent.

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[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I’ll bet it isn’t popular amongst those who want to play without paying. We’re not talking about a woman’s choice to avoid parenthood. She WANTS parenthood. That’s the point. Her rights trump yours. Plain and simple. If you can’t deal with the consequences of sex that leads to parenthood, don’t play.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=OneCentStamp]
A man’s choice of whether or not to have a child is over as soon as his sperm makes its merry way up the tunnel o’ love.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=SnakesCatLady]
She did not choose to force parenthood on him, unless she forced him to get an erection, forced him to put that erection in her vagina, and forced him to have an orgasm. […] If he made the choice to have sex, he took the chance that he would be choosing to become a father.
[/QUOTE]
I’s hoping for something more sophisticated than bald female chauvinism.
[QUOTE=OneCentStamp]
The decision is no longer in his hands because the fetus is not living inside his body, subsisting on his energy and nutrients. If it was, the choice of killing that fetus or allowing it to live would be his.
[/QUOTE]
Y’s’pose it takes energy and nutrients to trade labor for the cash to pay child support payments?

Pro-lifers?

79

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Men have the right to choose already. We can choose not to have sex unless we’re sure of the woman and that the risks of pregnancy are almost nil. If we don’t do that then we know before we do the deed that pregnancy could result. If we knowingly choose to take that risk I’d say we’re responsible for the consequences.
[/quote]
That’s silly. Women have complete control over their reproductive system. Have a child? Don’t have a child? Womens’ choice. Men can only choose to have sex or not. If that were the only choice women had, sure it would be fair and equal.

It’s simple. Why can’t you grasp the concept? Women can opt out of pregnancy and parenthood pretty much anytime untll shortly after the child is born. Early on, she can abort. If she wants to wait, she’s got the rest of the nine months to decide if maybe she’d like to adopt it out. For awhile after she gives birth, she’s protected by abandonment laws.

Men have none of those rights, but should, in the interest of equality. Do men have a right to abortion? Of course not, but they should be able to opt out of an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy, just as a woman can. They should get the same nine months as the woman does, plus whatever amount of time women are protected by abandonment laws. If the woman has hidden the pregnancy from the man then the time he has to make up his mind upon finding out he’s had a child should be a reasonable one. At least as long as women are protected by abandonment laws, but probably even longer because women get the 9 months of pregnancy to think about it.

Seems workable and fair to me.

But like I said, it’s not about equality or fairness. Women first, children second, men last.

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[QUOTE=levdrakon]
That’s silly. Women have complete control over their reproductive system. Have a child? Don’t have a child? Womens’ choice. Men can only choose to have sex or not. If that were the only choice women had, sure it would be fair and equal.
[/QUOTE]
Just in case you missed it in biology class. A man choosing whether or not to have sex is him having complete control over his reproductive system.

I can certainly grasp the concept of equal rights for men but you have offered zero proposals for how this would be reasonable, fair, and workable in real life situations. After conception , exactly how would a man execute his equal rights?

You’ve offered nothing that can even be considered. How can we judge what is workable or fair with no real life proposals. All you’ve done is repeat your “Equal rights for men” mantra. Until you offer any real workable proposals it’s just empty bullshit.