I have a few questions that I’m sure have been asked before, but since I’m new here, I didn’t get the answers. This is not part of a quest for me to answer, prove on disprove anything about God. I have no doubts about him. I know what I believe, but it has become really obvious I don’t know what you believe or why. This is not any sort of challenge. I promise I won’t try to “witness” to you. I respect your right to believe what you do. The first one I’ve asked in one or two of my posts, but don’t think anyone answered.
What is the harm in believing in God (pick a God, any God) if it gives the believer comfort. Do you think it’s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham? Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth?
How do you explain, not just the origin of man, but the origin of all. What was before that. I realize you don’t have the answer to that and you only really believe what is proved, so I guess I’m asking for your best guess scenario. You can give me the short version. Real short.
If you’ve brought up evolution at all in the previous sentence, when you got to the origin of man part, how is it explained that there are no true remains of mixed species (part way through some transition), or are there? I don’t think evolution as I know of it disproves or proves a creator, but I’m sure my information on it has had a religious slant.
When you look into your children’s eyes, does it ever cross your mind that they’re just going to be dust in a few decades. Does all of that lost brightness, joy, potential, just gone, seem sad or just matter of fact or doesn’t it cross your mind?
Not really going to go here, just barely. Doesn’t there being no life after this one make abortion even more horrible, since this little person’s one chance for life is being snuffed. Or does it matter?
Does an atheist ever wish God were true, provable?
When you’re in the depths of sorrow or pain, with no one to pray to or hold you up; what do you do?
I realize there are a lot of people out here hedging their bets and saying they believe in God and it has about the same meaning as I believe in eating right. For the people you’ve come across who truly do seem to believe, do you see any difference? More at peace? Happier? Or just more irritating?
Have you ever understood why a lot of “believers” talk so weird (almost a Christian version of baby talk) when they’re discussing religion. Okay, I threw that one in for me. Irritates the hell out of me when someone takes on that weird “do you know Jesus” voice. I’ve always wondered why they do it, when it is so likely to clear a room in under a minute.
When I’ve heard so many universe theories and explanations about time, space and everything having different rules than we understand; why when we say you can’t really apply man’s laws of nature to God does it seem to irritate the non-believer. When so much about the universe is unexplainable, why do you think God should have to be proven or rationalized?
Do you ever look around at the beauty of nature, how complex even the function of our bodies are and think, how could this be some unplanned event?
Do you think non-believers tend to be more pessimistic? Don’t get your panties into a bundle over that one. I just mean since I believe I have something really awesome to look forward to; I have some of that I get to go to Disneyland feeling. Ceasing to exist just doesn’t have the same ring to it?
Okay, I’m going to stop for now. I realize some of these should be their own topic, so I’m just looking for the condensed version. Remember I’m not trying to step on anyone’s toes. Just want to know what you think. Respectfully (really), IWLN
I was going to match you quote for quote from your answer to my post, but what a pain. If you don’t know which of your statements I’m referring to, just ask.
I can’t really second guess God’s intent with any accuracy, but what we were created as and the motive I still believe has to do with our journey and growth. It was a gift, not a curse. Yes he could have created a bunch of “perfect” beings, but what would be the benefit? Where did you get the idea that God doesn’t have needs. As I’m sure you noticed in the Bible, fear seemed to be considered as big of a motivator as love, maybe bigger. And since it was written by men, you are not necessarily going to get a good grasp of God’s true nature. I’ll give him powerful and loving (that‘s what I feel from him). Vengeful, perfect, all knowing, etc., well we’ll see. I continue to believe there is more than one force at work in the universe. Yes, we’ll refer to them as good and evil. I believe good aka God is more powerful than evil aka Satan. So while evil makes the path a little rocky, the outcome is certain. Could God wipe out evil? I think that’s part of the process we’re in right now. I know it sounds like some science fiction flick, but so does “the expanding universe, big bang theory, etc., yet we’re still trying to figure those things out.
Typically at this time in history, our desire to have children is prompted more by emotional need than that old survival instinct. We do rationally know that our choice to have or not have children does not endanger our survival as a species. It has to do with that love, need, sometimes ego and vanity. And wasn’t it a soccer ball, not a teddy bear?
You can definitely outdo me on the definition of words like rationalism and many others. But I do notice that when the rational thinker gets to a different truth than what he previously held, the old truth seems to be renamed a notion and is changed or discarded. Somehow being wrong about a notion isn’t quite as unscientific as being wrong about a TRUTH. And I don’t agree with the whole scientific prove, not disprove. I hear barking and it sounds like it’s coming from over there. I can open the door to prove or disprove that there is a dog in there, can’t I. Either way you word it, I will come to a scientifically proven fact. Okay my comment on some scientists becoming believers during their search has come from watching religiously slanted documentaries. I didn’t say lots or many. I just noted that some changed their beliefs. You do have me on the atheist tribes. Didn’t know any existed.
Attributing feelings to natural/biological explanations is not in conflict with a belief in God creating us. Wasn’t trying to bait and switch. Just trying to note that the feeling itself is not always provable, but not necessarily untrue.
As far as my comment on dogs not being highly evolved, but still able to reason. I was just trying to point out that the power of reason is not a good indicator of high intelligence or rationale. Evolving to me is adaptation to your present environment. I really wasn’t talking about the “grand scale of evolution”. Although I do believe adaptation is progress.
As for God being insulted, I have at least two times on this site heard him referred to as a motherfucker, someone wanted to kick him in the balls and another wanted to dip his hands in paint thinner and wipe God’s eyes. Considering God reprehensible even though I don’t see why, is at least a legitimate opinion. I am not offended for God, though. Let him fight his own battles there. I think I would rather see someone ticked off than apathetic. If “God belief” is an evolutionary adaptation, still wouldn’t make God untrue, not that I necessarily believe that. Part of our progress has been an increasing awareness of our world’s potential. Growth is normally a good thing. And there are definitely more tar-pits in this world now than there used to be.
As far as your comparison to the father who abandons the child and hides. Just because everyone doesn’t know God, doesn’t mean God’s hiding. I don’t feel like he’s hiding at all. Is he physically inhabiting this world, no. I’m about to make a comparison that isn’t very good, but all I can think of now. If as a young child, if you were told that your father (who you’ve never met, not sure why) was going to come and see you and that you were all going to Disneyland or whatever was your idea of the best place in the world to go; would you become happy and excited or would you demand proof of purchase on the tickets. I don’t know why faith without a lot of proof is important to God, but it seems it is. I want to be loved freely, not force someone to love me. I don’t see God as this big guy who’s just waiting for me to screw up so he can deposit me in hell. It really would be impossible to believe in God without being aware that there are other forces at work though. I do believe that a lot of the “rules” came into being for health reasons, i.e., stuff like drinking blood of animals, the whole pork thing, promiscuity (that one can hurt emotionally and physically), even homosexuality when populating the world was a big issue, but as in any historical writing, the rules don’t always continue to apply.
I don’t see any of this as my side against your side. This isn’t some competition. Even though I attend church, I don’t have any urge to perpetuate any particular religion. Religion was man’s adaptation that fulfilled some need to draw lines in the sand. To compete, unfortunately. Religion doesn’t have near as much to do with God as it should. Would I like to convince you that I know about something that’s a lot better than laying in dirt for eternity, sure. There is absolutely no scientific discovery that could prove that God doesn’t exist. I would be the first to admit to limited knowledge of all facets of understanding God. My lack of full knowledge doesn’t make him untrue. Virtually almost everything we understand about the universe could be untrue, but the universe would not cease to exist, simply because of our lack of knowledge, incorrect knowledge or the full facts. IWLN
What is the harm in believing in God (pick a God, any God) if it gives the believer comfort. Do you think it’s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham? Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth?
As a Christian it is your duty to convince any believer in another god, or in no god, to believe in your god. Do you think it’s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham? Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth?
2. How do you explain, not just the origin of man, but the origin of all. What was before that.
As in, how did the universe begin? No-one knows for certain (including you). I am perfectly confortable with that. We will learn it in due course.
3. If you’ve brought up evolution at all in the previous sentence, when you got to the origin of man part, how is it explained that there are no true remains of mixed species (part way through some transition), or are there? I don’t think evolution as I know of it disproves or proves a creator, but I’m sure my information on it has had a religious slant.
It sure does, as it is flat-out wrong. There are numerous fossils of “mixed species” more properly known as transitional. See some of the links on http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~lindsay/creation/fossils.html for instance.
4. When you look into your children’s eyes, does it ever cross your mind that they’re just going to be dust in a few decades. Does all of that lost brightness, joy, potential, just gone, seem sad or just matter of fact or doesn’t it cross your mind?
Of course it is sad. How does that mean your god does exist?
5. Not really going to go here, just barely. Doesn’t there being no life after this one make abortion even more horrible, since this little person’s one chance for life is being snuffed. Or does it matter?
Yes. Yes. How does that mean your god does exist?
6. Does an atheist ever wish God were true, provable?
Not this one, no. I know there is no god as, if there were, it would be perfectly obvious to all and the question would never arise.
7. When you’re in the depths of sorrow or pain, with no one to pray to or hold you up; what do you do?
I know of some entities called “friends”, and some others called “family”. When I ask them for help, they actually deliver, reliably, right there and then. Why wouldn’t you go to them first? No-one to hold you up - are you a hermit or something?
8. I realize there are a lot of people out here hedging their bets and saying they believe in God and it has about the same meaning as I believe in eating right. For the people you’ve come across who truly do seem to believe, do you see any difference? More at peace? Happier? Or just more irritating?
At least they are internally consistent in their delusion.
9. Have you ever understood why a lot of “believers” talk so weird (almost a Christian version of baby talk) when they’re discussing religion.
No.
10. When I’ve heard so many universe theories and explanations about time, space and everything having different rules than we understand; why when we say you can’t really apply man’s laws of nature to God does it seem to irritate the non-believer. When so much about the universe is unexplainable, why do you think God should have to be proven or rationalized?
You confuse “unexplainable” with “not yet explained”. I am confident we will know the answers to those things one day. I know that the existence of god will never be - can never be - proved.
11. Do you ever look around at the beauty of nature, how complex even the function of our bodies are and think, how could this be some unplanned event?
I know how it can be unplanned. I marvel at the magnificent diversity that only a lack of such a plan could produce.
12. Do you think non-believers tend to be more pessimistic?
No. Doesn’t that “go to Disneyland feeling” (which I personally would abhor - I just turned down a free trip to Disney world) sap your enjoyment of the real world, since you are constantly looking forward to something you think is infinitely better?
Musicat, Thanks for your prompt and courteous reply.:rolleyes: Kind of what I half expected from some. I have been reading this board for weeks. Looking for answers. Actually talked to some nice people who gave me hope that a belief or disbelief wasn’t really about character, but about intellect and feeling. Well you can’t be right all the time, can you. Did you understand that this was not a challenge and you could chose to ignore whatever you wanted to. Did you see the topic? Why not skip the whole post? Jesus’ middle name doesn’t start with an F. Maybe you should go read over some old posts and you can find this out. Sincerely, IWLN P.S. I was so proud of myself that I didn’t call you a dipshit. Oh well, Believer’s have their faults too.
I will attempt to answer as truthfully as possible…
Harm in Beleiving ? Yes if its blind. If mommy and daddy taught you a belief you haven’t thought much about. Personally I feel many are less inteligent for not thinking it out… some can barely answer inquiries into their beliefs… they just accepted it. IMHO.
The origin is irrelevant except for how it affects us NOW… I tend to give a lot of credit therefore to evolution and a little to the big bang.
Other animals have transitions… so why couldn’t we ? Evolution isn’t necessarily slow either.
It does cross my mind… and either I feel its unfair or that life is to be lived… standing up not on your knees.
All loss of life can be a disaster… but treating women as baby factories and controlling their bodies doesn’t justify it. I don’t do that silly “its a fetus” talk. They might be born… or not. If slavery saved lives would you approve of slavery ? Female slavery ?
God true ? For what ? A Benign father figure to protect us ? The world is a nasty place… and sometimes wonderful place. Humans are mostly nasty. If God brought real justice here it would be fine by me… justice HERE not in the afterlife.
In moments of despair: I eat chocolate, have sex or seek friends to share company. (Just because there is no afterlife its not like we are constantly thinking “oh there is nothing left”.)
Good question actually. Those who have a consistent belief system and for me these have always been outside ORGANIZED religion seemed happier. Not at peace thou funny enough. But then I beleive strongly in “Ignorance is Bliss”.
hhmm… no idea.
Because it seems like denial those phrases. God doesn’t have to be rational or proved… nor can he be proved. The world exists thou… and from what I see and feel… I don’t think god exists.
I see wars, destruction, envy and I think that if this is all planned that god is one sick entity. How do you explain these ? Have you ever seen how many systems are required to make even a simple car work ? Its only a human creation too. Just because we don’t understand something doesn’t mean it was made by superior beings. God is the simple answer of simple people for complex issues ?
I can only speak for myself… I am a pessimist by nature. This might have skewed me against “feel good” religion of course. Some other atheists I know seem normal thou. We just don’t get our regular doses of optimism from clerics I suppose. I get mine from friends… from good conversation and having fun. Spending time worrying about the “next step” seems silly.
Final note… most non-beleivers come from a social and moral framework and therefore tend to live just as “morally” as religious people. So if heaven exists we shall enter there according to our deeds like any “good” christian. I am quite modest in my lifestyle and hardly some “major sinner”. So if we both become worm food I win… if we both meet in heaven … well we both win.
Excellent questions. Complete non-believer here. My answers as follows:
a) None; I don’t bother to try and convince people out of beliefs that they cherish if I see no particular harm in them. b) No. c) Yes, to some extent, but in most cases I think it’s harmless and I know I cannot exert influence everywhere I’d like.
I don’t, and I don’t have to.
Firstly, the statement that “there are no true remains of mixed species” is too ambiguous for an adequate response, without a definition of “mixed species”. No evolutionist claims that there should be a species transitional between, say, a cat and a horse, for example. Secondly, the fossil record is only a tiny fraction of the remains of all species through time, thus the relative absence of transitional remains, even of related species, should surprise no one. I’m not an expert in this field, but I simply find the arguments in favor of evolutionary processes such as natural selection to be more persuasive than those against.
Well, I haven’t got kids, but if I did, the plain fact is that they will not live forever, nor I, much as I’d like to. I really don’t worry all that much about what may come after, as there is no reliable information on that subject. My only concern is that I and the people around live a useful life and do as little harm as possible.
This presumes that there is a life and consciousness that is being “snuffed”, in all abortions, a notion to which I do not subscribe. Also, why do you assume that a lack of belief in God equates to being in favor of abortion?
Only if such a being were fair and just. Ancient books claiming such do not necessarily make it true.
Put up with it.
No consistent behavior. I know non-believers who are more or less perfectly at peace, and I know believers who are miserable. And vice-versa.
Haven’t a bleedin’ clue. If I were to hazard a guess, I’d say that talking in some archaic, cod-biblical fashion helps them feel closer to God.
Well, unexplained so far, anyway. I don’t personally require that God be proven or rationalized.
No, nor do I think that the ‘beauty’ of nature and the appreciation of the supposedly immaculate function of our bodies (tell me, where does, say, pancreatic cancer fit in to all that?) is anything but a construct created by us.
I can only speak for myself, but if I am pessimistic it has little or nothing to do with whether I believe I’ll be going to the Big Rock Candy Mountain someday.
[list=1]
[li]Ask the husband of the woman in Texas who drowned her children; or Matthew Shepard’s family when Westboro Baptist showed up to picket; or a homosexual shunned by his family for his sinful lifestyle (these examples are not meant to suggest that all believers are hurtful people, only to observe that religion has other effects than giving a believer comfort). Is it right to convince them otherwise? Only if they’re listening willingly. Gullibility, less intelligence, less growth? Not generally.[/li][li]I don’t explain the origin of all, though I have a conditional acceptance of science’s current explanations. As for the origin of man, evolution.[/li][li]This is the transitional fossils fallacy–all fossils are transitional except the last in the chain. Look at talk.origins for examples of series of fossils in which each is clearly transitional between the previous and the next.[/li][li]No more than it does for anyone I meet. It doesn’t fill me with a special sadness, if that’s what you’re asking.[/li][li]It makes abortion less horrible, since a fetus has no awareness of existence, no consciousness of what it’s missing.[/li][li]The thought crosses my mind, but it also crosses my mind that, if God were demonstrable, he wouldn’t be the God of classic conception. It would diminish the concept for me.[/li][li]Rather than seeking religious comfort, I seek philosophical comfort, which offers about the same level of certainty.[/li][li]Some seem nicer, calmer, better adjusted. Some seem strident, arrogant, and prideful.[/li][li]This was explained to me as follows: imagine you’re standing on a corner, and the person in front of you steps out in front of a speeding bus; you pull them back in the nick of time, saving their life. True believers feel the same urgency towards saving souls as you would, pulling someone out from in front of a speeding bus. Makes sense to me.[/li][li]Because the parts that science can’t explain, it offers the possibility of explaining, and it’s usually upfront about what it can’t explain, and how strong its current explanations are. When believers say that God can’t be explained, that he moves in mysterious ways, it’s a dodge to justify the unjustifiable.[/li][li]When I look around at the miraculous functioning of the universe, I also see the kludginess of parts, like the human appendix, like cancer, like droughts and volcanoes. I see a deep randomness and a lack of purpose in the coastlines of continents and the ridges of mountains that are, to me, better explained as the result of a blind process. What’s beautiful about the flesh-eating bacteria?[/li][li]No, I think they tend to be less guilt-ridden and more optimistic about their responsibility for and freedom to have a good life.[/li][/list=1]
I see no harm in those aspects of it. I don’t go around trying to convert theists. But if a theists asks about or attacks my lack of beliefs, I will explain it, and my reasons for it. Naturally, that’s going to involve alot of reasons why I don’t think belief in God is logical. This is no more an attack on Christianity than a Christian explaining why they believe is an attack on atheism.
Real short: Probably about the same way you explain where God came from, or what was there before he was.
I don’t have children, but the desire for my loved ones to be immortal does not cause them to be so, or even offer a shred of evidence that they are. I don’t form my beliefs by wishful thinking.
The fact that I only have my time on earth to share with my loved ones makes it very precious to me.
So, at what point do the unborn gain potential for an afterlife? Fetus? Embryo? Zygote? Are there sperm and eggs in heaven?
It’s a silly question.
Sure. Frequently. But not the Christian God. He’s a nasty piece of work. All that damning and genocide-instigating. I don’t think the world would be a better place if ruled by a being that feels justified dispensing eternal torture for finite crimes.
I’ve never been without another human being to turn to.
Depends entirely on how they present it. Presented with a smug sense of superiority, of course it’s irritating. I have found true “believers” in general to be no more happy, moral, or at peace than atheists in general. I’m a very happy, fulfilled person, without religion.
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Have you ever understood why a lot of “believers” talk so weird (almost a Christian version of baby talk) when they’re discussing religion. Okay, I threw that one in for me. Irritates the hell out of me when someone takes on that weird “do you know Jesus” voice. I’ve always wondered why they do it, when it is so likely to clear a room in under a minute.
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Wierds me out, but I’ve rarely faced it in person. Might be a Canadian thing, or just my luck, but I’ve met few “have you found Jesus yet?” types in person.
Extraordinary claims require extraodinary proof. I’d require alot of rationalization and proof if some one told me that the Invisible Pink Unicorn ( or her lesser known robot counterpart, the Invisible Pink Unicron) created the universe. Would you not require rationalization and proof if some one tried to convince you that your God was false, and Odin and his pantheon had done it all?
No more than I look at maggots on roadkill, starving children in Africa, and horribly destructive earthquakes and think it must be planned by some evil being.
We’re not all that well designed, anyhow. If God was up there, I’d think he could to better than he did with our spines and windpipes.
I’ve never noticed theists to be any less afraid of death than non-theists, honestly. No one seems to be looking forward to it. I don’t see that there’s anything to particularly fear/be pessimistic about, though. It’s not like I’m going to be aware of missing existance. I’m in no hurry to end my time here, though.
Again, life is precious when it’s all you’ve got. Might as well make the most of it.
I think it implies less critical thinking. But it’s not a big deal to me. Believe if you wish.
How do you explain the origin of God? I find no confort or satisfaction in pushing the question back one level. If God created the universe, that answers that question, but we’re still left with how God came about.
I didn’t bring up evolution so I’ll skip this one.
A sad fact, but a fact nonetheless.
Doesn’t matter.
As often as I wish there were leprechans and elves.
Guess I haven’t been in the “depths of sorrow or pain”. I find human comfort more fulfilling than imagined comfort, FWIW.
Only irritating if they’re trying to convert me. Usually, it doesn’t make much difference. Most of my friends are believers, but it rarely, if ever, comes up.
Was this an actual question?
The same reason I would want leprechans or elves to be proven if I were to believe in them.
Nope. Evolution pretty much explains it.
I can’t generalize. I know optimists and pessimists on both sides of this. I do wonder why believers are so concerned about dying. If I thought I was going to heaven, I’d want to get there as soon as possible.
I don’t have children, but I do have friends and family. That does occasionally cross my mind (usually around 2am while I’m staring at the ceiling). It’s quite unfortuante that we all will die, but I don’t dwell on that fact; why waste my time worrying about something I can’t change?
Sometimes, as long as it’s a nice, fair god. The idea of heaven seems like good fun.
Music, friends, and books.
hansel and El_Kabong’s answers for 2, 3, 5, and 8-12 are the same as mine.
Belief by itself, no. The problem is not the belief in God but the assorted beliefs that seem to crop up, such as the belief in the evils of homosexuality.
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded. (Shamelessly stolen from Pratchett). Seriously, I do the same thing that you do when asked to explain the origin of God. To wit, I say: [God/The physical universe] is the alpha and omega. It defines existence, and therefore asking what was there before Him/it is meaningless.
Ah, the mix fallacy. Learn a bit more about evolution first, than rephrase the question.
Nope.
No more so than the lack of life for the billions of sperm cells that will never grow up.
A God worthy of the name would be really cool. Unfortunately, it’s trivial to show via problem of evil and related wossnames that we don’t have one.
Play Unreal Tournament. I may be sounding flippant, but taking solace in decapitating bots with properly ricocheting Ripper blades is n’t even close to the worst of what people do to feel better.
Well, there are quite a few true believers on these boards who seem at peace and happy. I personally think they would remain so even if religion was not a part of their lives. Things like this are a bitch to test, though.
No clue. Makes it easy to identify a target for a series of lame “in the Biblical sense” jokes, though.
The fact that there are many different theories that all explain a bit of the universe does not mean that it (the bit) is unexplainable. Quite the opposite, in fact. It just means we’re not sure of what the explanation actually is yet.
Ever watched an organism sicken and die for no reason? Ever noticed how so much suffering is unavoidable? How poorly human bodies are in comparison to machines or certain animals?
Dunno. Ask a statistican. Or better yet, ask yourself if there would be tears at your child’s funeral, given the knowledge that said child is now free from suffering, and ponder anew what belief in heaven is worth.
What is the harm in believing in God (pick a God, any God) if it gives the believer comfort. Do you think it’s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham? Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth?
Preaching excessively, or when it isn’t welcome isn’t something I do, but I see belief in God as a mental or emotional crutch, a way of explaining away everything, and making everything better. A placebo effect. If the subject comes up, I will explain my beliefs, and I won’t be apologetic about them.
How do you explain, not just the origin of man, but the origin of all. What was before that. I realize you don’t have the answer to that and you only really believe what is proved, so I guess I’m asking for your best guess scenario. You can give me the short version. Real short.
I don’t. Humanity doesn’t. All the more reason for us not to create stopgap solutions (Creationist theories).
If you’ve brought up evolution at all in the previous sentence, when you got to the origin of man part, how is it explained that there are no true remains of mixed species (part way through some transition), or are there? I don’t think evolution as I know of it disproves or proves a creator, but I’m sure my information on it has had a religious slant.
There are transitional fossils, as shown earlier in the thread.
When you look into your children’s eyes, does it ever cross your mind that they’re just going to be dust in a few decades. Does all of that lost brightness, joy, potential, just gone, seem sad or just matter of fact or doesn’t it cross your mind?
I have no children, myself, but when I think about death, it’s a strange comfort to me that me and everyone else I know will eventually pass on. I don’t want my life to be unlimited, it would lose all meaning.
Not really going to go here, just barely. Doesn’t there being no life after this one make abortion even more horrible, since this little person’s one chance for life is being snuffed. Or does it matter?
Sure. It doesn’t mean that there’s a God.
Does an atheist ever wish God were true, provable?
Perhaps a benevolent God, but not the Judeo-Christian God, and that’s the only one I’ve studied in-depth. I have concluded that He’s an evil mother-fucker.
When you’re in the depths of sorrow or pain, with no one to pray to or hold you up; what do you do?
Pray to myself. Ask myself to find the courage to get through it. Don’t believe in God. Believe in yourself.
I realize there are a lot of people out here hedging their bets and saying they believe in God and it has about the same meaning as I believe in eating right. For the people you’ve come across who truly do seem to believe, do you see any difference? More at peace? Happier? Or just more irritating?
More irritating. Agnostic people or loose theists seem much the same, except that they don’t hate gays, or shellfish, or whatever group that fundamentalists of various religions happen to loathe.
Have you ever understood why a lot of “believers” talk so weird (almost a Christian version of baby talk) when they’re discussing religion. Okay, I threw that one in for me. Irritates the hell out of me when someone takes on that weird “do you know Jesus” voice. I’ve always wondered why they do it, when it is so likely to clear a room in under a minute.
That irritates the hell out of me, too. I don’t know why it happens.
When I’ve heard so many universe theories and explanations about time, space and everything having different rules than we understand; why when we say you can’t really apply man’s laws of nature to God does it seem to irritate the non-believer. When so much about the universe is unexplainable, why do you think God should have to be proven or rationalized?
What really irritates me is Christians saying “Not everything can be explained by science”, as if science is fixed stuff, written in stone. Science is just us explaining what’s around us in rational terms. Until God can be explained and proven using rational terms, I’m not believing in Him. I’m simply not going to change my life completely based on something that I cannot possibly comprehend.
Do you ever look around at the beauty of nature, how complex even the function of our bodies are and think, how could this be some unplanned event?
Nope. Can’t see the logic there.
Do you think non-believers tend to be more pessimistic? Don’t get your panties into a bundle over that one. I just mean since I believe I have something really awesome to look forward to; I have some of that I get to go to Disneyland feeling. Ceasing to exist just doesn’t have the same ring to it?
It’s more of a comfort. Someday, I’m going to cease to be. Maybe it’ll be quiet, maybe it’ll be dramatic. I’ll have a time on the earth, and however long it is, I’m going to try my best to spend it well. If I don’t, well, it’s the thought that counts. Someday, I’ll be forgotten. And that’s a nice thing. I don’t want to be around forever.
I’m not going to the great big Disneyland in the sky. Noone is. We all have our time. Me, I’ll worry about making my own choices, working out my own morals, and generally having a good life, rather than sticking to a set of most likely fictional guidelines in order to get some sort of reward when I pass on.
Well, I’m a bit bored right now, so I figured I’d go ahead and answer these questions.
What is the harm in believing in Santa Claus if it gives the believer comfort? Basically, to the atheist, Santa Claus and God are both squarely in the realm of imaginary entities, with the main difference being the number of people who believe in the particular imaginary entity.
Do I believe that it’s right to try to convince a believer that their comfort is a sham? Absolutely. That is mainly because I, personally, place intellectual discovery above “feeling warm and fuzzy” on the scale of importance. To my mind, belief in God is kind of like a “little white lie”. It’s meant to help rather than hurt, but it’s lie nonetheless.
Do I think it implies gullibility, less intelligence or less growth? Not necessary. That all depends on why someone believes in God. It their reason is “because my parents and pastor told me so,” then yes, I think that implies gullibility, at the very least.
Short version: We don’t really know.
Long version: All matter in the universe is expanding in such a way that, by projecting the current trajectories back in time, it appears that all matter was once compressed into an very small, very dense mass around 15 billion years ago. The origins of this “universal seed” are unknown, but there is nothing to suggest that any sort of outside influence (read: God) was necessary.
One thing that I tend to point out to religious people is that, just because one model doesn’t completely explain something, that doesn’t mean that any other model which claims to completely explain that something is correct by default. Thus, “you don’t know, so God did it,” is not a logical assumption to make.
One common misconception about evolution is that there are different species, with transitions between them. In reality, evolution is more fluid than that; Organisms are constantly evolving and changing, and the borderlines between species are quite fuzzy.
That said, there are transitional fossils. The problem is that many of the people opposed to evolution are never satisfied. Show them fossil B, which is clearly a transitional fossil between A and C, and they’ll claim that they want to see a transitional fossil between A and B (or between B and C).
I don’t have children, but I have family and friends, and it has crossed my mind before. I have more than one family member who has already been reduced to dust (literally, cremation and all that). Yes, to lose a person is sad, but I have yet to see a Christian who was unaffected by the death of a loved one, no matter that they believed that they’d see their loved one again in Heaven.
However, to me, the temporary nature of life is what makes it so precious, and so worth preserving.
That question is slightly loaded (although you probably don’t realize it). I don’t label a fetus as a “person”. Before the onset of brain activity, the fetus is just a mass of different tissues that will eventually develop into a person. To me, abortion before that transition to “person-hood” is no more horrible than all the millions of chances for life you’re destroying by using a condom during intercourse.
I think it’s be great. I could finally nail down exactly what my “purpose” in life is, rather than having to create it myself.
I get over it. Eventually. Humans are resilient creatures. Being comforted in times of despair is a nice thing, but it’s by no means required.
First of all, assuming for a moment that God is real, I’d say that anyone who is a believer because they’re “hedging their bets” is going to end up in the same boat as the unbelievers. I’m sure that, should He exist, God wouldn’t be stupid enough to be fooled by someone who us just going through the motions as a safety net.
If I had to find one difference (and as much as I hate to say it) I find true believers slightly more irritating. This is simply a result of their belief that they’re right, coupled with their desire for me to believe the “right” thing too, leading to a lot more preaching than I’d expect from a “just-in-case Christian”.
I’ve never really noticed this before. Maybe that’s something that you really only get between Christians. And no Christian is going to have a discussion of Jesus with me without learning what I believe (and don’t believe) in fairly short order.
The whole “you can’t apply logic to God” just reeks of a huge cop-out. A giant deus ex machina (I you’ll pardon the pun) that can be used to wave away any argument without actually having to think about it. If you can’t apply things like logic to God, then there’s really no point in even discussing God, since it all boils down to nothing but one person’s belief against another’s.
Oh, and equally annoying is “God works in mysterious ways”.
I believe that there is very little about the universe that is unexplainable. Currently unexplained, yes, but not totally unexplainable.
Not at all. I think the fact that the beauty of nature is unplanned makes it even more beautiful. I much prefer to think “What a wonderful and beautiful universe we live in” than “how wonderful it is that God is making things look beautiful again today.”
In some respects, I think it’s the opposite. Remember that is pessimism need not be specifically “pessimism about one’s future fate.” I feel that, when it comes to human nature, Christians are more pessimistic that atheists simply by virtue of the fact that they believe all humans to be sinners. In other words, Christian doctrine labels humans as flawed and unworthy by default, with the only reason we can go to Heaven being that God loves us enough to let us in even though we don’t deserve it.
Nothing at all. It’s just not something I feel comfortable doing. I don’t try to convert believers into non-believers. I don’t argue with my friends who are religious. I will respect the beliefs of anyone willing to respect mine. And no, I don’t think it makes a person gullible or less intelligent.
I don’t know how it happened, if it ever happened. I have no way of knowing whether it was all ‘created’ or it all ‘appeared’ or if all of this was always here for infinity. I don’t think that’ll be answered in my lifetime, and that doesn’t bother me. There are many things I don’t understand. I think that for me, with my background in sciences, to just guess at it wouldn’t be a good idea. Big Bang Theory makes lots of sense, but I will never be sure if it’s an absolute fact. I don’t consider it or anything else to be one. As for life, I do think that evolution occurs. Things suited to an enviornment survive, those that aren’t die.
There really aren’t that many remains of anything. It doesn’t surprise me much that fossilized pre-humans aren’t out there, since fossilized remains are not exactly super-duper common considering the vast numbers of plants and animals that have lived. The best evolutionary evidence is that which we observe now, such as vestigial structures. The evolution of species has been observed, as animals adapt over time to include the traits most suited ot survival in their enviornment.
I don’t have children, but no, such thoughts don’t make me sad. One day I will die, and decompose, as will everyone else on the planet. One day, human beings may not exist at all. Homo sapiens sapiens will very likely one day become extinct. Another species that slowly evolves beyond us may take our place. It just seems to be the natural order of things. Old life dies, and new life replaces it. Over very long periods of time, that new life becomes just as wonderous as what once was.
Don’t really consider this one relevant. A non-sentient thing is not capable of forward thought, does not conceive of ‘tomorrow’. Hell, I can conceive of tomorrow, and although I like my life, if I were to die and that was it, the end, no after life, I wouldn’t know I was dead and couldn’t possibly be missing life. An aborted fetus never knew it was a live, and doesn’t know it’s dead.
There was a time when I wished I could just be like everyone else and believe. I thought then that if god could be proven, it’d be easier. It’s been a long time since I felt that way, which basically ended when I stopped caring whether I was ‘just like everyone else.’
I just keep going. I figure I’ve got two options: get busy living, or get busy dying. There are lots of things I want to do in the future, so the latter option doesn’t seem so good. I find it a comfort to believe that I am strong enough to keep going through anything based only on what is inside me. It’s self-reassuring to me to not believe that there is an invisible hand holding me up.
Those who actually believe as opposed to those who just ‘go through the motions’ tend to be more interested in trying to make me believe too. Other than that, no real difference in happiness or anything.
Same reason Fred Rogers talked the way he did. A calm, quiet, soothing voice is more effective when you’re attempting to put people at ease than a brash one. Sometimes to adults it sounds patronizing, but I suppose most of the time it sounds less threatening. I’m not really a fan of it from someone I don’t know who’s trying to convert me to their religion, but I thought it was absolutely wonderful that Mr. Rogers spoke in that same type of voice on his tv show.
The concept of ‘god’ never seems to get any more understandable. There’s no progress there the way there is with the way science describes the universe around us. In the last 2000 years, we’ve come a very long way at understanding how things in the universe work. We still don’t understand it all, but we do understand more now than then. Not so the case with god, which it seems should be if god is also part of the universe.
Nope, but sometimes I do look at it and think ‘If this had all been designed by someone or something, there would be a certain sameness to everything, an evident style that would detract from the wonderfulness of all these accidents.’ I also think that if there had been a designer, some things would’ve been done a lot better. Menstruation would be out the window, and rabbits wouldn’t have to eat their own feces to survive.
I tend to have that ‘I’m already in Disneyland’ feeling. I’m living the vacation every day while I’m here, all the wonderful stuff that is life. But like all vacations, it will end. If it never ended, it wouldn’t seem as good. Most people would love to spend a week or two at Disneyland or some other hot vacation spot. Few would want to spend their entire lives living in Disneyland. The ‘everlasting’ isn’t something I could look forward to entirely because it lasts forever. The beauty of life without an after life, to me, is that you get one, and you can do anything you want with it, and then it ends. I’m afraid I can’t explain it better than that.
I’m not a hardcore athiest. I’m just your average “I don’t believe in God” guy. I’ll answer these questions for the sake of your interests.
1. What is the harm in believing in God (pick a God, any God) if it gives the believer comfort. Do you think it’s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham? Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth?
There is nothing wrong with you or others believing in God. It is my choice that I have come to the belief system I am in now. Because you believe in God and I don’t doesn’t make you any more gullible or stupid than myself. The harm of believe in God? None. Tell me what harm there is in NOT believing in god from an unbiased standpoint.
2. How do you explain, not just the origin of man, but the origin of all. What was before that. I realize you don’t have the answer to that and you only really believe what is proved, so I guess I’m asking for your best guess scenario. You can give me the short version. Real short.
Short version? Read some books on science and the creation of the universe. Sure, they are theoretical, but so is religion.
3. If you’ve brought up evolution at all in the previous sentence, when you got to the origin of man part, how is it explained that there are no true remains of mixed species (part way through some transition), or are there? I don’t think evolution as I know of it disproves or proves a creator, but I’m sure my information on it has had a religious slant.
Other people before me have answered this the same way I would have; don’t confuse species and all that jazz with evolution too lightly.
4. When you look into your children’s eyes, does it ever cross your mind that they’re just going to be dust in a few decades. Does all of that lost brightness, joy, potential, just gone, seem sad or just matter of fact or doesn’t it cross your mind?
I don’t have children, but getting to your point… I do think about myself in the same way. One day I’m just going to expire and my life will have been meaningless. Yeah, it crosses my mind once in awhile, but I’m too young to really consider it. Get back to me on this in about 20-40 years.
5. Not really going to go here, just barely. Doesn’t there being no life after this one make abortion even more horrible, since this little person’s one chance for life is being snuffed. Or does it matter?
My stance on abortion is still a little frail. To much of getting into “does this little ‘life’ have a concious to begin with”?
6. Does an atheist ever wish God were true, provable?
Personally, if something amazing were to happen, like an obvious miracle (not an image of Jesus in my spilled milk on the table) I’m sure I would begin to reconsider, but I don’t wish God was there.
7. When you’re in the depths of sorrow or pain, with no one to pray to or hold you up; what do you do?
I suck it up. I deal with it myself. I turn to my friends. It is up to me to look out for me.
8. I realize there are a lot of people out here hedging their bets and saying they believe in God and it has about the same meaning as I believe in eating right. For the people you’ve come across who truly do seem to believe, do you see any difference? More at peace? Happier? Or just more irritating?
This one person I know if very close to Jesus and God. I can see that she is happy with her life, and she constantly lets me and everyone know how glad she is for her relationship with God and Jesus. Sometimes I wish she would just get on with her life, rather than bragging (sorry, but that’s kind of what it looks like) about her relationship to the man upstairs. But yes. She is happy, and enlightened.
9. Have you ever understood why a lot of “believers” talk so weird (almost a Christian version of baby talk) when they’re discussing religion. Okay, I threw that one in for me. Irritates the hell out of me when someone takes on that weird “do you know Jesus” voice. I’ve always wondered why they do it, when it is so likely to clear a room in under a minute.
Understand? No. The closest bet for me is to say that they are trying to be calm and gentle people. Humble, if you will.
10. When I’ve heard so many universe theories and explanations about time, space and everything having different rules than we understand; why when we say you can’t really apply man’s laws of nature to God does it seem to irritate the non-believer. When so much about the universe is unexplainable, why do you think God should have to be proven or rationalized?
After reading other’s replies, mine pretty much mirrors their own.
11. Do you ever look around at the beauty of nature, how complex even the function of our bodies are and think, how could this be some unplanned event?
All the time. I find nature the most facsinating of all things on this world. Just because something is beautiful does not mean that God has to be behind it! If you see someting so ugly and repulsive (yet in a complex way) do you associate that with Gods work as well?
12. Do you think non-believers tend to be more pessimistic? Don’t get your panties into a bundle over that one. I just mean since I believe I have something really awesome to look forward to; I have some of that I get to go to Disneyland feeling. Ceasing to exist just doesn’t have the same ring to it?
No. I’m definatly an optimist.
That was definatly one of the funniest things I’ve ever read within a religion thread!
Interesting and provoking questions to an atheist who was raised religious.
I don’t object to anyone having religious beliefs for the same reasons I don’t object to someone believing in astrology, tarot cards, etc… I’d be happy to try to dissuade you from it, but I’ll recognize your right to believe what you want. I do object to, and see a danger in, setting policy according to such beliefs or imposing those beliefs on others. I cite the countless religious wars throughout history and into the present.
One first has to ask the question of whether there was an “origin of all.” We can say that current evidence points to a beginning of time, but this does not imply an uncaused causer. It could be that the universe was uncaused, or that cause lacks suffient meaning when discussing something before time. Moreover, one could (assuming continious time) create an infinite series of causation without ever having an inital causer (but still have a lower bound).
I have no difficulty, and see no conflict, in saying I don’t know. Perhaps there is a cause, perhaps not. It is certainly a subject to be investigated. I see no reason to believe that such a causer, if it exists at all, is the god of the bible.
Although I didn’t mention evolution, I’ll simply point out (as others have done) that the question of transitional forms is a nonsensical one. Every current species is transitional between what it was before and what it will be after.
No kids, but I would say atheists do deal with death and dying. I am aware that every person I meet, and even myself, will be dead at some point. I suppose it makes a person more inclined to live a worthwhile and meaningful life.
I don’t see abortion as horrible. I see the revocation of a person’s right to control their own body as repugnant to a person’s basic humanity. You can’t be forced to donate organs, even after your death, depite the fact that people would be saved by it. Such is the value of the right to control your body.
I wish only to know the world, whatever it is. If god can be, and is, demonstrated to be part of it, so be it. My reading of the evidence at this point, however, is that the god of the bible doesn’t exist. I neither prefer that outcome nor dislike it. It simply is.
Cope as best I can, which usually involves talking family and friends, and when appropriate, look for a solution to my problem. I don’t see talking to an imaginary friend as especially theraputic, and for the same reason, I don’t talk to a god.
I’ve observed no real correlation between hapiness and religosity. Even if there was, I don’t know what it would matter. The administration of certain drugs can make you happy. I prefer reality, however.
My encounters with religious baby talk (good term!) are not nearly as annoying as outright threats or anger. I got an email yesterday from a family member saying atheists, being a minorty group (yep that was the reason given), should “sit down and SHUT UP” (caps in the original). That is far more disconcerting.
Premise: If it has an impact on our life, it both exists and can be investigated scientifically. Thus, simply by a bit of logic, if god can’t be investigated, either god doesn’t exist or doesn’t impact our life. The latter does not fit the description of the christian god, ergo if the christian god can’t be investigated scientifically, it doesn’t exist.
I am routinely impressed by the complexities of nature, including human behavior. It is impressive preciely because it is real, and more amazing than any fiction. Tacking on fiction is a step into the dull and mundane. I’ll take reality any day of the week (including Sunday).
I prefer living to being dead, and am suprised that others feel differently.
-There is no harm in believing in a God or many Gods if it gives the believer comfort and NOT at the expense of others. I do not think that it would be right to try to destroy someones sense of comfort if it was NOT infringing on the comfort of another. If anything, I think that belief in God or gods is implies a dependence.
-The study of the “origin of all” is a constantly expanding, if somewhat esoteric, body of scientific knowledge. There are some strong prevailing theories at this point in time but there are also some new theories that look very promising (ex. superstring theory). What was before that is even more esoteric, but an interesting intellectual exercise.
There are transitional species in the palentological records (i.e. Australopithecus, Ardipithecus, etc)
It doesn’t cross my mind. While they are children, I try to teach them as much about the art of learning as possible. My time for that is short, and there are many distractions. There is little time for worrying about the obvious.
A persons life is a conscious subjective interpretation of the universe around them. It is or it is not, there is no chance of it before consciousness and there is none after.
If was scientifically provable then why not?
I remind myself that sorrow and pain, like joy and euphoria, fear, dread, anger, etc are transient conditions that are rooted in the my subjective focused view of the world at the moment. It will fade with the flow of time.
The people that truly believe, they seem at peace, even optimisticly hopeful about the eventual outcome of everything. It is, at times, enviable.
No, but it does amplify a sense of dependence about them.
When it is said that “you can’t really apply man’s laws of nature to God”, I will ask, “Then what rules can be applied to God”. My level of irritation will depend on how that question is addressed. The premise that God is an unknown and unknowable is the intellectual equivalent of taking the path of least resistance.
Their is no harm in simply believeing in God. However, not many simply believe. Many try to convince others that their own beliefs are the right ones, and also try to define the will of their God by their own terms. That is what I have a problem with. Gullibility? Sometimes, but not always. There are some who will prey on people who don’t ask enough questions. Less intelligence? No. But I have found that many smart religious people do not take a fundemental approach to religion.
We came to be as the result of an inconcivably unprobable event. The universe became. I don’t think a deity was nessisary for it to be. Before it there was nothing.
Transition fossils? I never completely understood why this is a problem for the Theory of Evolution. As far as I know the creationist arugment is that there are no half chimp half human fossils so there is no way we would have evolved from apes. This IMO is much like saying that we take a number 3, and a number 1. Since there is no 2, we can assume that 3 and 1 are not related whatso ever. A bit of a confusing analogy, but its the clearest one I can some up with.
Um, I dont understand what Atheism has to do with this one. Regardless of your religion your kids will eventually die. The only difference is most Theism believes in an afterlife. Personally I’d rather see my kids make a difference in life and be remembered for it, than be stuck in an eternal afterlife.
Doesn’t make a difference personally. I’m pro-choice if that matters.
I think, that if God did exist, he would be nothing like what is expected. I don’t wish he exists, but I won’t say that he definately doesn’t either.
I go on. The universe is a big place, and my sorrow is insignifigant compared to it.
I find people who more or less blindly believe, seem a lot like their doped. You can’t have a theist debate or discussion because they’ve already decided that they are right and you are wrong. I find it irritating.
Nope.
My belief is that God is a creation of man. You can’t apply the laws of the universe to God because it falls under the category of a human creation rather than a natural force of the universe. Things that people try to explain are oberved. God has yet to be observed (or at least, what has been observed cannot be proven to be an act of God)
No. Its difficult to grasp, but it is completely possible given the span of time, creations such as forests and our respitory systems would come about by natural process. They started as simple things and over the last billion or so years they became what we observe today.
Not pessimistic. Its a common misconception. Since we don’t believe in eternal bliss it is assumed we must be negative people, simply because we think that when we die, there is nothing else. Not so. Death is a natural part of existance. And to die is simply to cease to exist. I don’t find it a depressing concept at all.
