Dear Atheists, Questions From A "believer"

Great Debates
21

*Originally posted by IWLN *
**I have a few questions that I’m sure have been asked before, but since I’m new here, I didn’t get the answers. This is not part of a quest for me to answer, prove on disprove anything about God. I have no doubts about him. I know what I believe, but it has become really obvious I don’t know what you believe or why. This is not any sort of challenge. I promise I won’t try to “witness” to you. I respect your right to believe what you do. The first one I’ve asked in one or two of my posts, but don’t think anyone answered.

  1. What is the harm in believing in God (pick a God, any God) if it gives the believer comfort. Do you think it’s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham? Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth?**

There is harm in believing in god if that belief could harm others. More people have been killed in the name of God than anything else in history. If you’re a nice peaceful person, and you don’t try and attack me for not believing the same stuff you do, that’s fine.

About the “implications”, no, I don’t immediatley judge someone based upon religion. If their beliefs are so extreme that they won’t listen to rational arguements then yeah, I believe they’re less intelligent, or rather, more close-minded. My girlfriend believes in god and I have nothing but respect for her beliefs because it’s simply what she believes. She doesn’t harass me about me not believing in an omnipotent god.

Counter queston for you;

What is the harm in believing in the scientific method? Do you think it’s right to ignore facts and make up things just for comfort? Do you think being logical and requiring evidence implies gullibility, less intelligence, or less growth?

**
2. How do you explain, not just the origin of man, but the origin of all. What was before that. I realize you don’t have the answer to that and you only really believe what is proved, so I guess I’m asking for your best guess scenario. You can give me the short version. Real short.**

Okay, I believe in the big bang, and big crunch theories (that the universe expands and contracts from a singularity). I also believe that life started from a complex set of chemical reactions that occured in a rare existance, and we evolved through genetic mutation and natural selection.

Counter question;

Before you ask “what before the big bang?”, I ask you, what before god?
**
3. If you’ve brought up evolution at all in the previous sentence, when you got to the origin of man part, how is it explained that there are no true remains of mixed species (part way through some transition), or are there? I don’t think evolution as I know of it disproves or proves a creator, but I’m sure my information on it has had a religious slant.**

Evolution doesn’t disprove of a creator. Also, you simply do not understand how evolution works if you believe that species go “part way” through “transition” because that simply is not how to works.

**
4. When you look into your children’s eyes, does it ever cross your mind that they’re just going to be dust in a few decades. Does all of that lost brightness, joy, potential, just gone, seem sad or just matter of fact or doesn’t it cross your mind?**

I don’t have children, but if I did, it really wouldn’t bother me, everyone is going to die eventually.

Counter question;

Do you believe in souls? Do you believe when we go into the after life that all our memories will be with us? How do you explain amnesia then if so? If our souls carry our memories with us, what about people with head damage that don’t remember anything?
**
5. Not really going to go here, just barely. Doesn’t there being no life after this one make abortion even more horrible, since this little person’s one chance for life is being snuffed. Or does it matter?**

Every time someone jacks off into a sock, millions of potential lives are lost. Millions of creatures die every day due to just breathing. A “potential” child is not a human life, it can not think, it has no conciousness, it has no brainwaves. By the way, don’t bring up late-term abortions, because those babies do have brainwaves and developed brains / organs.

**
6. Does an atheist ever wish God were true, provable?**

Depends which god.

Would you wish a god true that hated you based on your beliefs? Say there was a god that existed, his system of beliefs DIRECTLY opposed yours, so that when YOU die, you go into eternal hellfire. Do you want this god to exist?

**
7. When you’re in the depths of sorrow or pain, with no one to pray to or hold you up; what do you do?**

I don’t do a damn thing. Praying to an invisible figure gives me no relief, I’m a very scientific person, and logic is a very integral part of my personality.
**
8. I realize there are a lot of people out here hedging their bets and saying they believe in God and it has about the same meaning as I believe in eating right. For the people you’ve come across who truly do seem to believe, do you see any difference? More at peace? Happier? Or just more irritating?**

I see no difference at large. If you’d like to individually compare people, then yeah, some people are irratating.

**
9. Have you ever understood why a lot of “believers” talk so weird (almost a Christian version of baby talk) when they’re discussing religion. Okay, I threw that one in for me. Irritates the hell out of me when someone takes on that weird “do you know Jesus” voice. I’ve always wondered why they do it, when it is so likely to clear a room in under a minute.**

Yes its irratating, and yeah, I understand why they talk so weird.

**
10. When I’ve heard so many universe theories and explanations about time, space and everything having different rules than we understand; why when we say you can’t really apply man’s laws of nature to God does it seem to irritate the non-believer. When so much about the universe is unexplainable, why do you think God should have to be proven or rationalized?
**

This is a ridiculous analogy, if I say I don’t understand this particular aspect of what we call a “black hole” it doesn’t mean I question weither it exists or not, I know its there, it could be difficult to describe it though. Whereas we don’t have any evidence for god, at all. Theories are supported by evidence, seeing as how there is no evidence of god, you can’t compare it to the unexplained forces of the universe that could be explained by theories.

**
11. Do you ever look around at the beauty of nature, how complex even the function of our bodies are and think, how could this be some unplanned event?**

There are hundreds upon billions of galaxies, containing billions of stars, most containing planets.

The horrible rarity of ourselves even being aware of this just goes to show we’re probly one of the oddities.

By the way, I don’t think nature is beautiful neccesarily, or even that our bodies are complex. Complex compared to what? We don’t have a very unbiased viewpoint.

**

  1. Do you think non-believers tend to be more pessimistic? Don’t get your panties into a bundle over that one. I just mean since I believe I have something really awesome to look forward to; I have some of that I get to go to Disneyland feeling. Ceasing to exist just doesn’t have the same ring to it?
    **

No. Along similar lines, a lot of resentment towards religous people comes from “burning in hellfire” verses.

22

1a. What is the harm in employing opiates (pick an opiate, any opiate) if gives the user comfort. Do you think it’s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham? Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth.

:smiley:

23

1. What is the harm in believing in God (pick a God, any God) if it gives the believer comfort. Do you think it’s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham? Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth?

The problem of this comfort is it comes with a high price. The effects are exactly like getting drunk or doing drugs to feel good. Karl Marx called religion “opiate for the masses.” While I do not necessarily agree with his politcal and economic theories, this remark is right on target.

As for whether it is right to deconvert a Christian (or other religious person), think of it this way. When you see a fully phyically capable person moving around on a wheelchair, somehow thinking that he can’t walk on his own, would you try to show him that he’s wrong?

2. How do you explain, not just the origin of man, but the origin of all. What was before that. I realize you don’t have the answer to that and you only really believe what is proved, so I guess I’m asking for your best guess scenario. You can give me the short version. Real short.

What is the origin of YHWH?

3. If you’ve brought up evolution at all in the previous sentence, when you got to the origin of man part, how is it explained that there are no true remains of mixed species (part way through some transition), or are there?

What is your question again? Can you rephrase that?

4. When you look into your children’s eyes, does it ever cross your mind that they’re just going to be dust in a few decades. Does all of that lost brightness, joy, potential, just gone, seem sad or just matter of fact or doesn’t it cross your mind?

And how does it change matters? Would you be more happy if one of your children refuses to believe in YHWH, thus destined to burn in Hell, for eternity?

5. Not really going to go here, just barely. Doesn’t there being no life after this one make abortion even more horrible, since this little person’s one chance for life is being snuffed. Or does it matter?

The abortion issue cuts across religion boundaries, so that you know.

For me, it doesn’t matter at all. Whatever that somebody decides to abort is not a person per se.

6. Does an atheist ever wish God were true, provable?

Whatever for?

7. When you’re in the depths of sorrow or pain, with no one to pray to or hold you up; what do you do?

I reach inside for that cornerstone of strength.

8. I realize there are a lot of people out here hedging their bets and saying they believe in God and it has about the same meaning as I believe in eating right. For the people you’ve come across who truly do seem to believe, do you see any difference? More at peace? Happier? Or just more irritating?

See my answer to [1], above.

10. When I’ve heard so many universe theories and explanations about time, space and everything having different rules than we understand; why when we say you can’t really apply man’s laws of nature to God does it seem to irritate the non-believer. When so much about the universe is unexplainable, why do you think God should have to be proven or rationalized?

Saying much of this universe is unexplainable is begging the question, or at least casting it badly. How do we know if it is explainable or not?

Thus, this stands in stark contrast to the Christian god.

11. Do you ever look around at the beauty of nature, how complex even the function of our bodies are and think, how could this be some unplanned event?

If this universe was created by God, then who had created Him?

12. Do you think non-believers tend to be more pessimistic? Don’t get your panties into a bundle over that one. I just mean since I believe I have something really awesome to look forward to; I have some of that I get to go to Disneyland feeling. Ceasing to exist just doesn’t have the same ring to it?

No, why should we? We are in fact more optimistic, because this life is all we got, and we’d better make the best of it.

Believers, on the other hand, don’t care. If they screw around or mess up, hey, no big deal, right?

24

Bagkitty: One might therefore say that religion is the opium of the masses. I like the sound of that.:slight_smile:

25

Well if that is true, it is the only convincing argument I’ve heard in favour of a war on drugs.

[homer simpson voice]
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm heroin
[/homer simpson voice]

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  1. i don’t think belief as such is bad. i think that people who haven’t reasoned out their beliefs are committing a fatal error with regards to how best to live their lives. but that’s the way i live my life. also, i think that believing something that is not true has its own harms. that said, i cannot prove the lack of existence of an arbitrary god, so it’s probably best not to pursue that here.

  2. there is no such thing as “before” the universe. the existence of the universe, and the existence of cause and effect, gives definition to the word “before”. just as you would say there is no “before” god.

  3. i didn’t. but i know that there are many things yet undiscovered in the earth. claims that can not be falsified, though, i am more wary of than claims that can be and haven’t yet been (in the general case).

  4. i don’t have children, but i believe i know what you mean. no. that idea doesn’t make me sad. i live my life for me, and all i know is now. my niece, for example, makes me quite happy in the present, and that is enough for me. i can’t really concern myself with things that’ll happen when i’m not here, can i?

  5. no. there are countless cells in the human body that are alive and die every day. explore your definition of life and you realize that there isn’t much inherently precious about it (in itself).

  6. yes. i don’t.

  7. i trust in myself, my friends, and whoever i have to help me. people are pretty neato torpedo when you give them their due credit. if they can’t help me, i can be happy with whatever i had. or i can simply recognize that i can’t be happy, and that’s that.

  8. if you believe that you have free will (i don’t), then everyone makes a choice whether to believe or not to believe. it’s always a choice.

  9. no.

  10. if you wish to discuss god rationally (in, say, a forum like great debates), you had better be willing to let your god be subject to rational discussion. if he is not held by the rules of logic, for example, you can’t really say anything meaningful about him, can you? you can’t say that he is benevolent, creative, or that he even cares that you worship him. you can’t say anything at all about him.

  11. no. given a sufficiently large sample size, all outcomes have a probability of 1. also, if it didn’t happen we wouldn’t be having this wonderful discussion.

  12. i have a lot to look forward to. right now i’m going to bed, and that will prove to be a truly enjoyable experience. tomorrow, i will wake up and look at the beautiful sun outside (ok, that’s a bit of exaggeration: i live in pittsburgh–there will be no sun), go to work a job i enjoy, talk to people i love talking to, and get a whole lot of secular fulfillment out of my life. when i’m dead, i won’t be anywhere to note my lack of experiencing it, so that doesn’t really seem like something worth worrying about.

a brief question for you, now. do you feel that “believers”, in their preoccupation with pleasing someone else, and always looking forward to something and such, can’t enjoy life as much as atheists? and do you believe that in giving all the credit to god and placing all their faith in him, they fail to give due credit to the people that have done all the amazing things like make them happy or solve major world hunger problems?

27
  1. What is the harm in believing in God (pick a God, any God) if it gives the believer comfort. Do you think it’s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham? Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth?

I believe religious faith harms a person’s ability to think logically, and I think it does retard a person’s emotional growth - in a way, religious people are like people who continue to live under their parents roof, following their rules, as an adult - they never truly learn to live on their own. I also find it deeply sad that there are so many people who suffer and/or avoid things that would bring them happiness in hopes of avoiding imaginary punishment in the afterlife.

  1. How do you explain, not just the origin of man, but the origin of all. What was before that. I realize you don’t have the answer to that and you only really believe what is proved, so I guess I’m asking for your best guess scenario. You can give me the short version. Real short.

The origin of man is pretty well understood, though of course there are gaps in our knowledge of the details of our ancestors the mechanism through which we achieved sapience is well understood. As to the origins of the universe, no rational person can claim to know that for certain - there are still mysteries in the universe.

  1. If you’ve brought up evolution at all in the previous sentence, when you got to the origin of man part, how is it explained that there are no true remains of mixed species (part way through some transition), or are there? I don’t think evolution as I know of it disproves or proves a creator, but I’m sure my information on it has had a religious slant.

There are tons of transitional species. If you look at hominid fossils over the last 5 million years or so, you see that they kept getting bigger and bigger brains. You can also see how the horse evolved from a small animal with several toes into a large one with one.

  1. When you look into your children’s eyes, does it ever cross your mind that they’re just going to be dust in a few decades. Does all of that lost brightness, joy, potential, just gone, seem sad or just matter of fact or doesn’t it cross your mind?

I (mostly) enjoy living, so of course I don’t like the idea of it ending, for me or my loved ones. There’s no avoiding it, though.

  1. Not really going to go here, just barely. Doesn’t there being no life after this one make abortion even more horrible, since this little person’s one chance for life is being snuffed. Or does it matter?

I don’t consider abortion horrible at all. The human brain is still developing and developing new connections hours after birth. Killing an unborn fetus or a newborn infant is not as destructive as killing someone with a fully functional brain and an accumulation of experience and knowledge.

  1. Does an atheist ever wish God were true, provable?

Sometimes, but I think if I truly believed in the God of the Bible I would worship Him out of fear, not respect, if I worshipped him at all. There is a good chance I would oppose Him. I would like for there to be some kind of pleasant afterlife for me, but I’d also like to be able to read peoples minds and fly like Superman, it’s fantasy.

  1. When you’re in the depths of sorrow or pain, with no one to pray to or hold you up; what do you do?

I try to learn from my experience how to minimize my sorrow in the future. I am getting better at it every year.

  1. I realize there are a lot of people out here hedging their bets and saying they believe in God and it has about the same meaning as I believe in eating right. For the people you’ve come across who truly do seem to believe, do you see any difference? More at peace? Happier? Or just more irritating?

I have a lot of trouble relating to people who have no doubts about their religion. It seems unhealthy to believe in something unquestioningly. I can relate to people who are religious because they have been raised that way, but are open to other ideas and who think about the logical implications of their beliefs. I went through a period where I felt like some higher power was communicating with me through symbols and coincedences, but I never lost sight of the possibility that it was an illusion brought on by severe emotional trauma. I got over my trauma, and the delusions went away.

  1. Have you ever understood why a lot of “believers” talk so weird (almost a Christian version of baby talk) when they’re discussing religion. Okay, I threw that one in for me. Irritates the hell out of me when someone takes on that weird “do you know Jesus” voice. I’ve always wondered why they do it, when it is so likely to clear a room in under a minute.

I think religious people think that non-believers are naive or self-deluded, and are trying to talk down to us. Either that, or they are simply imitating the tones used by their clerics.

  1. When I’ve heard so many universe theories and explanations about time, space and everything having different rules than we understand; why when we say you can’t really apply man’s laws of nature to God does it seem to irritate the non-believer. When so much about the universe is unexplainable, why do you think God should have to be proven or rationalized?

Because there is always a reason why we don’t understand the mysteries of the universe - we know what limitations we have that keep us from knowing what happened in the first instants after the Big Bang, and we have a good idea what we need to learn before we can unwravel those mysteries. I see no mystery to ‘God’. To me religion is an easily explained sociological phenomenon.

  1. Do you ever look around at the beauty of nature, how complex even the function of our bodies are and think, how could this be some unplanned event?

No. I don’t see why people have to imagine a creator for everything, maybe they are trying to anthropomorphize the universe or something…

  1. Do you think non-believers tend to be more pessimistic? Don’t get your panties into a bundle over that one. I just mean since I believe I have something really awesome to look forward to; I have some of that I get to go to Disneyland feeling. Ceasing to exist just doesn’t have the same ring to it?

I think I’d be a lot more pessimistic if I felt that people were being condemned to eternal suffering for arbitrary and (in my mind) stupid reasons.

28
  1. What is the harm in believing in God (pick a God, any God) if it gives the believer comfort. Do you think it’s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham? Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth?

When and if I subcribe to a belief system, I will do so because in my heart I beleive it is the truth. I respect the concept of spirituality too much too use a religion as a metaphysic insurance policy against hell. Futhermore, I think this post will give you some answers regarding the concept of robbing one of thier personal comfort. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=217422
I think it can indicate lack of growth if one decides never to question thier belief or turn a blind eye to those who do.
2. How do you explain, not just the origin of man, but the origin of all. What was before that. I realize you don’t have the answer to that and you only really believe what is proved, so I guess I’m asking for your best guess scenario. You can give me the short version. Real short.

simple. the scientificly proven process of evolution.

  1. If you’ve brought up evolution at all in the previous sentence, when you got to the origin of man part, how is it explained that there are no true remains of mixed species (part way through some transition), or are there? I don’t think evolution as I know of it disproves or proves a creator, but I’m sure my information on it has had a religious slant.

According to my understanding, there ARE no mixed species, nor are they necassary. One species simply improves upon itself through procreation. Someone a bit better at science than me can improve upon this awnser.
4. When you look into your children’s eyes, does it ever cross your mind that they’re just going to be dust in a few decades. Does all of that lost brightness, joy, potential, just gone, seem sad or just matter of fact or doesn’t it cross your mind?

There is no lost potential. All of my child’s potential will be brought out here,on earth. This is thier one chance, and i think them knowing this (or rather being taught this by me) will spurn them to leave this world a little better than they found it. Leaving this world better than when you left it is one way to truely live forever.

  1. Not really going to go here, just barely. Doesn’t there being no life after this one make abortion even more horrible, since this little person’s one chance for life is being snuffed. Or does it matter?

well, this is a hard one. Mainly I don’t really consider a embryo a “little person”, while a fetus is. But that is something I could write tomes about.

  1. Does an atheist ever wish God were true, provable?

hmmm another interesting one. Yes, I can honestly say I do. It would render a lot of the needless pain and suffering on this world unescassary. All the wars fought in the names of diffrent Gods, all the guesswork and inner crises of conviction.

  1. When you’re in the depths of sorrow or pain, with no one to pray to or hold you up; what do you do?

I rely on a very powerful support group called humanity. All of the people who have given me the most comfort in times of need belong to this group. I couldn’t ask for better support, nor do i feel the need for one. God offers me little comfort in my dark moments for the reasons you will find in the post i cited above.

  1. I realize there are a lot of people out here hedging their bets and saying they believe in God and it has about the same meaning as I believe in eating right. For the people you’ve come across who truly do seem to believe, do you see any difference? More at peace? Happier? Or just more irritating?

there is a measure of peace in these people. It’s a peace that too often comes at the cost of others. I also have seen many non beleivers who have found peace without God. As far as i’m concerned, if you are truely at peace and hurt no one else, more power too you.
9. Have you ever understood why a lot of “believers” talk so weird (almost a Christian version of baby talk) when they’re discussing religion. Okay, I threw that one in for me. Irritates the hell out of me when someone takes on that weird “do you know Jesus” voice. I’ve always wondered why they do it, when it is so likely to clear a room in under a minute.

heh, couldn’t tell ya.

  1. When I’ve heard so many universe theories and explanations about time, space and everything having different rules than we understand; why when we say you can’t really apply man’s laws of nature to God does it seem to irritate the non-believer. When so much about the universe is unexplainable, why do you think God should have to be proven or rationalized?

because you as the beleiver have the burden of proof in these discussions, and an answer like that sounds like you are ducking the question. It also makes very little sense to an athiest.

  1. Do you ever look around at the beauty of nature, how complex even the function of our bodies are and think, how could this be some unplanned event?

Maybe sometimes. My mother used to tell me that when you point out that it would be almost impossible for this world to arise out of random chance, you are not proving that there must, therefore, be a God. All you are proving is that an almost impossible thing happened. May seem a bit incomplete but the study of science fill in the rest of the blanks for me.

  1. Do you think non-believers tend to be more pessimistic? Don’t get your panties into a bundle over that one. I just mean since I believe I have something really awesome to look forward to; I have some of that I get to go to Disneyland feeling. Ceasing to exist just doesn’t have the same ring to it?

I’m not pessimistic, even if there is not an afterlife, I know that i will have done my damnest to leave this world better than when I found it. I get my “go to Disneyland feeling” from knowing I will leave a mark and a legacy, however small, that will endure for generations after me.

whew Torie

29

I don’t try to convince anyone that their comfort is a sham, even though I think it is. I don’t know if it implies gullibility, etc. but I do tend to think of the religious as more blindly accepting.

I don’t have the explanation and neither do you.

I don’t see how evolution either proves or disproves religion. I have noticed that the religious tend to say “It’s only a theory, unsupported by the fossil evidence” and I’m not a biologist but it’s my understanding that in some cases it is supported by the fossil evidence.

It does cross my mind (although hardly ever at the actual moment when I’m gazing into their eyes) but I don’t see it as lost brightness, anymore than I see my mother’s death as lost brightness. She lived, part of her will always be alive in my mind.

I’m not tracking this one at all, in fact it almost seems if you believe there is life after this, then it makes abortion less horrible.

Not this one.

Sorrow-cry, rant; pain-scream; in either case seek hugs from friends

Actually don’t see much difference. Some of them definitely more irritating, but atheists can irritate me too, especially the ones who go around demanding that images of the 10 commandments be removed–I don’t care, they don’t bother me.

I tune out when they do that.

I don’t demand that god be proven or rationalized. Believers have something I don’t: blind faith. My theory about god, though, is basically this: God is widely held by the religious to be omniscient, able to accomplish anything–how could such a being fail to make its wishes perfectly known to everyone on the planet? And yet every religion has a different idea of god or gods, how to worship them or please them or appease them, what must be eaten or worn, which prayers must be said–and on and on–and how to make everyone accept the same god (brute force has been popular).

If planned, I think there’s definitely some room for improvement in the function of our bodies. Don’t get me started.

I’m both optimistic and cynical, but being worldly I don’t think hoping for the Rapture is particularly optimistic. Of all the people I know who want to go live with Jesus, none of them wants to go there today.

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Before you read my response, I strongly recommend you read my posts starting here in this thread. There’s a couple of them, and they’re long, but they set the context for what follows.

Done? You’re back? Okay.

1. What is the harm in believing in God (pick a God, any God) if it gives the believer comfort. Do you think it’s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham? Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth?

There is no harm in belief, in and of itself. I am not a stupid atheist; it takes only a brief look around to recognize that religionism and magical thinking in general, not rationalism, is the human default. As a result, I do not assume superiority in my position, and I do not evangelize or attempt to convince the faithful that their religion is a “sham.” I may believe that the majority of religious people lack critical thinking skills and have not considered their faith in objective depth, but I do my best to resist the urge to generalize therefrom.

That said, there is great harm in the righteousness that gives the faithful carte blanche to impose their beliefs on others. Naturally, this is not religion; it’s merely politics and power dressed up in religious clothing. But because the truly faithful can point to what they think of as a higher, divine truth and purpose, they sometimes feel justified in going beyond the bounds of politeness and decency in forcing others to comply with their dogma. The murderous zealots who destroyed the Twin Towers and the black-robed wingnut who put the Commandment boulder in the city building are both harmful to society, differing only in degree. So while an individual’s faith does no harm, it opens the door to all sort of abuses which must be guarded against.

Famous quote, from Seneca the Younger (variously attributed in either 4 or 5 BC): “Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.”

2. How do you explain, not just the origin of man, but the origin of all.

From a pragmatic point of view, the answer is irrelevant. What matters, practically speaking, is what’s here now. The answers to origin questions are primarily of value for pure intellectual curiosity.

However, I put great stock in pure intellectual curiosity. :smiley:

As I explain at great length in the thread I linked at the beginning, though, I believe there are very good reasons why humans are obsessed with finding the Ultimate Answers of Why and Where and How Come. The answers to these questions, in my view, are less important than what our insistence on finding said answers tells us about human nature.

3. If you’ve brought up evolution at all in the previous sentence, when you got to the origin of man part, how is it explained that there are no true remains of mixed species (part way through some transition), or are there?

I didn’t bring up evolution, but I would politely suggest that your grasp of paleontology, and of the true complexity of biology in general, is obviously lacking.

4. When you look into your children’s eyes, does it ever cross your mind that they’re just going to be dust in a few decades. Does all of that lost brightness, joy, potential, just gone, seem sad or just matter of fact or doesn’t it cross your mind?

All the more reason to live in the present and make a difference with the life we know we have, rather than trying to set ourselves up for an afterlife of which there is no proof.

5. Not really going to go here, just barely. Doesn’t there being no life after this one make abortion even more horrible, since this little person’s one chance for life is being snuffed. Or does it matter?

It doesn’t matter. I think this question is far too loaded to address fairly in a manner you will accept.

6. Does an atheist ever wish God were true, provable?

There is no God to prove. The question is meaningless.

7. When you’re in the depths of sorrow or pain, with no one to pray to or hold you up; what do you do?

I find it much more empowering to take responsibility for my own mental and emotional health than try to rely on the beneficence of an invisible sky pixie who may or may not have my interests at heart.

8. I realize there are a lot of people out here hedging their bets and saying they believe in God and it has about the same meaning as I believe in eating right. For the people you’ve come across who truly do seem to believe, do you see any difference? More at peace? Happier? Or just more irritating?

Everybody comes in all varieties. Some religious people, whether Christian or Jewish or Hindu or animist, are happy and well-adjusted. Some are insecure and needy and unpleasant. Some are psychotic. Ditto for agnostics and atheists. I see no meaningful correlation.

9. Have you ever understood why a lot of “believers” talk so weird (almost a Christian version of baby talk) when they’re discussing religion.

I have no idea why they do this. Drives me fucking batty, though.

10. When I’ve heard so many universe theories and explanations about time, space and everything having different rules than we understand; why when we say you can’t really apply man’s laws of nature to God does it seem to irritate the non-believer. When so much about the universe is unexplainable, why do you think God should have to be proven or rationalized?

I’m not sure I understand what you’re getting at with the first part of the question. However, there is a huge difference between “unexplainable” and “not yet explained.” As I describe in the long posts I linked at top, I believe that humans have a need to have any explanation rather than leave something unexplained, and as a result we habitually leap to the supernatural when nothing else seems forthcoming. That’s why John Edward finds it so easy to con grieving people on his “talking to the dead” show; they’re not thinking clearly, and when something happens that seems to be amazing and there isn’t an immediately obvious explanation, well, it’s just easier to assume it’s magic or something.

Can you be more specific about what in the universe you believe is unexplainable?

11. Do you ever look around at the beauty of nature, how complex even the function of our bodies are and think, how could this be some unplanned event?

Nope. In fact, it’s even more awe-inspiring to think that in all of the universe we’ve thus far been able to perceive directly, we are tremendously fortunate to have all of this beauty for ourselves, all due to some very simple physical laws that have been extrapolated into phenomenal complexity.

12. Do you think non-believers tend to be more pessimistic?

If pessimism means filling in gaps of non-information or non-understanding with bad things rather than good things, then no. But realistic: that’s a different ball game. To paraphrase Carl Sagan, in all of the vast magnitudes of space and time, there is no indication that anyone or anything will come to help us or save us from ourselves. That’s not pessimism; that’s reality.

Let me know if you need me to clarify anything. And please, do go read the thread I linked at top.

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Okay, I’ll bite.

  1. There’s no harm in the belief itself. Using the belief to rationalize hurting and killing lots of people strikes me as a touch distasteful, though.

  2. Big Bang sounds okay. Certainly no religion I’ve ever heard offers anything better (i.e. if God created the universe, what created God? Is it turtles all the way down?)

  3. I think you know squat about evolution.

  4. I don’t have kids, but if I did, I’d hope they’d spend their eighty or so pre-dust years being happy and productive.

  5. Lives get snuffed all the time. I’m oposed to restricting abortion because the end result would be worse: turning women into forced breeders.

  6. heck, give me cold hard evidence and I’ll become a believer, or at least I might believe God exists though I’d stop short of worshipping Him/Her/It. I have some pride, after all.

  7. I’ve never been that deep, but I pull myself together and carry on, typically self-medicating with ice cream or chocolate.

  8. People are people. Some are jerks, some are pleasant. Some are pleasant jerks. The correlation of pleasantness to religious belief remains unproven to me.

  9. Well, we all have our problems. Anyone can sound like an idiot, religious or not.

  10. I don’t think you know any more about astrophysics than you do about evolution.

  11. I say: “Hey, evolution’s cool, ain’t it?”

  12. Heck, if I want to go to Disneyworld, I’ll pack my bags and go to Disneyworld. I’d rather seek pleasure on Earth than cling to the hope I’ll get it after death.

I’m an atheist who has a pretty positive outlook on life, actually. I don’t fret about God, and I assume He isn’t fretting about me. If He is (assuming He exists), that’s HIS problem.

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  1. What is the harm in believing in God (pick a God, any God) if it gives the believer comfort. Do you think it’s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham? Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth?

A: Personally, I like Wallace Stevens’ slant. He said:

"It is the belief and not the god that counts.

“What we see in the mind is as real to us as what we see by the eye.”

And:

“The final belief is to believe in a fiction, which you know to be a fiction, there being nothing else. The exquisite truth is to know that it is a fiction and that you believe in it willing.”

Of course, Stevens was a poet, and therefore – by definition – was lying. How willing he may have been to believe he was lying is a question I’ll not try to answer.

B: Naw, we all gotta believe in something, finally, whether we believe we do or not. The question I ask myself is "Why do I feel in need of comfort – what is it in me that is unsatisified with what I can provide? The only answer I’ve been able to come up with for that is that I’ve seen how content rocks look, and how water heals itself, and I wants me some of what they got: consciousness yearns for unconsciousness.

C: None of the above. It implies a personal choice. The things you mention may or may not be in the same package of flesh as a belief in a god, but they are not necessary preconditions for that belief. I could be said to suffer from those things. I’m an agnostic with atheistic leanings.

  1. How do you explain, not just the origin of man, but the origin of all. What was before that. I realize you don’t have the answer to that and you only really believe what is proved, so I guess I’m asking for your best guess scenario. You can give me the short version. Real short.

Best guess: a accident of universal insignificance. Things snowballed.

  1. If you’ve brought up evolution at all in the previous sentence, when you got to the origin of man part, how is it explained that there are no true remains of mixed species (part way through some transition), or are there? I don’t think evolution as I know of it disproves or proves a creator, but I’m sure my information on it has had a religious slant.

N/A

  1. When you look into your children’s eyes, does it ever cross your mind that they’re just going to be dust in a few decades. Does all of that lost brightness, joy, potential, just gone, seem sad or just matter of fact or doesn’t it cross your mind?

A: Yes, it does. B: Who says it’s lost? It’s right here in my mind, right beside his pain, turmoil, actuality – they’re a matched set.

  1. Not really going to go here, just barely. Doesn’t there being no life after this one make abortion even more horrible, since this little person’s one chance for life is being snuffed. Or does it matter?

Yep, you just barely went there, like someone was just barely pregnant, or just barely dead, as they say.

Abortion’s a tough one, pal. Like god, it’s a thing you either choose to believe in, or you don’t. And all efforts to explain the choice come back to the choice.

No life after this one makes this one precious, joyful, and an awesome responsibility – part of which is living with choices made.

  1. Does an atheist ever wish God were true, provable?

I can’t remember ever wishing that.

  1. When you’re in the depths of sorrow or pain, with no one to pray to or hold you up; what do you do?

Wallow in it for a bit. Then make a pot of coffee. Smoke a cigarette. Revise a poem. Look up a friend. Laugh. Play some pool.

  1. I realize there are a lot of people out here hedging their bets and saying they believe in God and it has about the same meaning as I believe in eating right. For the people you’ve come across who truly do seem to believe, do you see any difference? More at peace? Happier? Or just more irritating?

It’s been my experience that people generally seem more at peace, happier, when they’ve committed themselves fully to something. This applies to believers and non-believers alike.

  1. Have you ever understood why a lot of “believers” talk so weird (almost a Christian version of baby talk) when they’re discussing religion. Okay, I threw that one in for me. Irritates the hell out of me when someone takes on that weird “do you know Jesus” voice. I’ve always wondered why they do it, when it is so likely to clear a room in under a minute.

Not sure I’ve ever run across this.

  1. When I’ve heard so many universe theories and explanations about time, space and everything having different rules than we understand; why when we say you can’t really apply man’s laws of nature to God does it seem to irritate the non-believer. When so much about the universe is unexplainable, why do you think God should have to be proven or rationalized?

A: I suppose because some non-believers expect that a being which can affect the material world to be answerable to the laws of nature. B: I suspect that the only thing which may be unexplainable about the universe is its origin. God, a supreme being, seems to have many unexplainable attributes which have not yet proven to be provable, though they have often been rationalized.

  1. Do you ever look around at the beauty of nature, how complex even the function of our bodies are and think, how could this be some unplanned event?

Not anymore. Because I can’t prove it one way or the other. I just enjoy it, or tolerate it, as the case may be.

  1. Do you think non-believers tend to be more pessimistic? Don’t get your panties into a bundle over that one. I just mean since I believe I have something really awesome to look forward to; I have some of that I get to go to Disneyland feeling. Ceasing to exist just doesn’t have the same ring to it?

I also have something really awesome to look forward to – the peace that passeth understanding, which I interpret as an end to consciousness. Why should what is beyond life bear any relation to anything in life, including consciousness?

Now you might point out, that if that’s the case, I’ll never know that peace. To which I’ll reply, “Exactly. It passeth understanding.” And it won’t be a flippant reply.

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First, let me point out that every answer you get is going to be different. That’s because atheism is not a religion, nor is it a belief system. It’s simply a word we use to describe everyone who lacks belief in god(s). So that’s the only thing you can know for sure that all atheists have in common. As far as any other beliefs, they’re going to vary considerably.

I subscribe to a “live and let live” philosophy. If your belief in magical beings makes you happy, who am I to try to convince you otherwise? However, that doesn’t mean I’m going to shy away from expressing my own beliefs, should someone ask me. And no, I don’t think that being religious precludes being intelligent.

A. What’s wrong with the answer “I don’t know”? One problem I have with some theists is that they seem to think that every question must have an answer, and that even an answer with no evidence or reason to support it is preferable to no answer. I disagree - there’s nothing wrong with admitting that you don’t know.

B. Why does there even have to be an “origin of all”? I’m sure you’ve heard this paradox: If everything must have a creator, then what created God? It is not necessarily true that the universe had to have a cause. We just had a great thread on this very subject, and I don’t have a link handy, but hopefully someone will provide the link for us.

[I’m skipping the evolution part because there are far more knowledgable people in this forum than I, and it’s been covered pretty extensively before]

This one I can only answer with another question. Does the fact that something makes you sad or happy have any bearing on its relative truth value? For example, since the Holocaust was sad, does that mean it didn’t happen?

Good idea…

Nah.

Personally, I’d rather get comfort from real friends and family than from imaginary sky-beings.

I don’t notice any direct correlation between depth of belief and happiness. I’ve known devout people who are miserable, and atheists who are happy as clams.

[quote]

I’ll get back to you on No. 10.

Not really. Have you ever considered that we developed in harmony with nature, and not the other way around?

Rather than your word “pessimistic”, let’s use the more accurate word “skeptical”, which lacks the negative connotations you are trying to attach. I honestly think that’s great for you that you believe you’re “going to Disneyland”, and I’m glad it makes you happy, but that doesn’t prove it’s true. I simply think you’re mistaken.

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It’s OK to argue against their beliefs if they are trying to argue against mine/witnessing etc. Believers in any religion are not neccessarily less intelligent or more gullible obviously.

The Universe exists, it appears to have had an origin. More than that I cannot say for I do not know.

Evolution is the change of gene frequency over time. It says nothing about the origins of the universe (although there are universe-origin theories that use evolutionary mechanisms) and nothing about the origin of life itself. Evolution is both a fact and a theory. We have observed it happening (the fact bit) and there are theories (such as Punctuated Equilibrium) to explain the observed facts. There is a lot of good info on the subject at www.talkorigins.org

It doesn’t cross my mind actually. And if it did, then I would accept the certainty of death as a part of life.

I don’t see a foetus as a person to be honest. I don’t know where the transition between foetus and baby person takes place which is why I’m generally against abortion except in the earliest stages of pregnancy or when there is a demonstrable risk to the woman.

Not really

Deal with it.

Difficult to say as religion is not something discussed a lot in this country so it’s difficult to say who the true believers are.

Not had much experience but I would seriously doubt such a person’s mental stability and avoid them like the plague thereafter.

It has yet to be demonstrated that the universe is unexplainable. Just that it’s yet to be explained. Big difference there.
It irritates the non-believer because our theories and hypotheses are testable and we accept the possibility, indeed the nigh-on certainty that we have not yet discovered the “truth” but that the journey towards it is rewarding nonetheless. So when a believer comes along and dumps all over it and avoids debate by hand-waving tactics it is understandably irritating.

If I were to think about it I would think how undesigned, messy and chaotic the world is, filled with suffering and needless pain. How could it have been planned this way?

You aint in heaven yet. Maybe you’ll end up in the other place. Ceasing to exist certainly sounds preferable to that.

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Bryan, I definitly don’t deny I know squat about evolution and astrophysics. These were general questions, not statements of any particular fact. As far as astrophysics, it seems to me discoveries, facts, theories are still in their infancy state as far as complex explanations go. But that wasn’t the point. It was why are we more comfortable with an unexplained universe than an unexplained God. As far as evolution, have never thought that was at odds with God and creation. Just wanted to know what atheists thought about it, in general. My lack of knowledge is why I’m here. Don’t know “squat” about atheists. When I was tip-toeing through another site, there seemed to be some anger and name calling at God. That made me wonder if a “typical” atheist had a grudge or fact-based belief. I had never really thought about whether being an atheist made day to day actions in this life different. No challenge, just trying to learn more about who I’m sharing the planet with. Did you notice I stayed away from politics. IWLN;)

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Legislature based solely on religious morality. A timeless singularity exists at one end of our universe. Archaeopteryx, Eohippus, Great Danes and Chihuahuas. Comparison of the sentience of the human foetus to that of the chicken I ate for dinner. Occam’s razor.

Understand all of these elements and you will understand why the following gives me a sense of inner peace and child-like awe comparable to that of any theist:

I am the most incredible thing in an incredible universe. I am a pattern of ever-changing atoms which somehow has the ability to think. Nothing like me existed for 12 billion years. I am borne of supernovae, you are Made of Stars. Every piece of sensory input I receive has an inexplicable quantum effect on the universe - I am the universe’s way of observing itself. My life is a wonder. I will live my life in wonder.

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Dang! I read this OP this morning, when there were no replies. Didn’t have time to respond then, and now it’s evening, and I’m 30-odd replies down the list. I’m sure I’ll end up repeating a lot. Oh well.

  1. No harm in believing, necessarily. It certainly harmed me, and I think it often harms society. It can cause a waste of potential, when intelligent inquiry and observation is given up in favor of dogma. Still, I’ll admit that there are those that seem to be improved by religious faith. I don’t try to convince believers that their comfort is a sham, but if they are belligerent about pushing their beliefs on me, I can be a little sarcastic. (If they wish to discuss it politely, as you seem to, I try to discuss it politely as well.) I don’t think it implies less intelligence, but I do think it implies less critical thinking, and probably more gullibility. No offense intended.

  2. Origin of all? No idea. But that doesn’t make it possible for me to accept the explanations offered by religion. I trust science more, because it constantly questions itself and seeks to find and eliminate its mistakes.

  3. See above. I agree, evolution neither proves nor disproves a creator.

  4. Sure, we’ll all be dust in a few decades. As others said, it encourages me to put more effort into living well here and now.

  5. I think abortion is always a sad thing, but for the mother. For the unborn child, I think it’s no sadder than a menstrual period passing without pregnancy.

  6. I used to wish that I could still believe in God. I was raised pretty religious, and habits are hard to break. I don’t miss it anymore–once I finally admitted to myself that I just don’t and can’t believe (at least not without some evidence), I felt incredibly liberated.

  7. When in pain, I cope. It’s easier now that I don’t believe in God–when I believed, it was hard not to blame him for designing such a crappy world for his children to live in.

  8. I don’t see true believers as any more at peace, just less awake. That could be a form of peace, I suppose, but I don’t envy them for it. It seems like delusion to me, and that only works when you don’t recognize it as such.

  9. No idea.

  10. According to believers, the laws of God are applied to us. We can’t understand them, yet we must obey them. Why is it so presumptious to apply the laws of nature and human intelligence to God? To say that we can’t is irritating because it seems like a catch-all cop-out for anything that can’t be easily answered. If God exists, I think it’s his responsibility to speak to me on my level. When I speak to a child, I restrain my use of big words. Surely someone as smart as God could do the same. If God gave us reason, why doesn’t he present himself a bit more reasonably? (If I’ve misunderstood the question, apologies.)

  11. If the complexity of our world implies that it was created, then how much more complex must the creator be? And if such complex things couldn’t have been unplanned, who planned and created the creator?

  12. Concerning what happens after death, I have no pessimism at all. Concerning the here and now, I’m far more optimistic now than I was as a believer. I used to believe that this life was pretty much all suffering, and that I’d be rewarded later. Now that I don’t dream about an eternity in Disneyland (I hate Disneyland, by the way), I find ways to make my mortal life better. When I fail, or when life is bad for whatever reason, I look forward to ceasing to exist.

Incidentally, the “I get to go to Disneyland feeling” that some believers try to use as a selling point doesn’t work with me. It sounds a little too much like Santa Claus and the promise of lots of toys. I want to be good because I want to live in a good world, and I want others to live in a good world. I believe people are better when they value goodness for its own sake than when they try to be good for the sake of a reward. I don’t need a lot of toys at Christmas, or streets of gold, or 72 virgins as a reward.

Again, you do seem to be asking sincerely and respectfully. I appreciate that. You’re more likely to understand others’ views this way, and more likely to be shown respect in return, than by telling us we’re all going to roast in hell.

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wow. just wow. That is amazing. Thank you SentientMeat.

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GOO, Were you mocking me? Did you have a computer glich? Decide it wasn’t worth the effort or give me only the answers you thought I deserved? :confused:

SENTIENTMEAT, Had to look up sentience even though I’m not going to touch that topic. I still carefully put insects back outside, feel sorry for the chicken and have no capacity to rationally discuss little humans. Felt your description of this terrific journey we’re on. Makes you think how great it is that we can think. Atheist or theist alike have to see the incredible power of it, whether there is agreement on the catalyst or not.

CERVAISE, Alot of your journey sounded very similar to mine in the observation stage, just came to a different conclusion. You’re reading assignment was a long one though, so I’ll be falling over now. Will talk to you about it later if that’s okay.