Dear Atheists, Questions From A "believer"

Great Debates
41
  1. What is the harm in believing in God (pick a God, any God) if it gives the believer comfort. Do you think it’s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham? Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth?

It is silly, but harmless, to believe in something just because it gives you comfort. The big questions (and bigger answers) are within the human beings on this planet. It just seems a waste of time and money to play a game with yourself (which is what you’re saying when you say you believe because it gives you comfort). But hey, as long as you don’t try to legislate your game onto the rest of us, and don’t witness, have at it.

  1. How do you explain, not just the origin of man, but the origin of all. What was before that. I realize you don’t have the answer to that and you only really believe what is proved, so I guess I’m asking for your best guess scenario. You can give me the short version. Real short.

I’ve often wondered why someone would make up an answer to a question they don’t really have the answer to. I’m fine with not knowing the who and why of our existence in the universe. That’s not to say I’m not curious, but I don’t need to fabricate an answer just so it looks like I know what I’m doing here on Planet Earth. I keep looking for the answer. I may find it and I may not, but my efforts to discover the truth are honest.

  1. If you’ve brought up evolution at all in the previous sentence, when you got to the origin of man part, how is it explained that there are no true remains of mixed species (part way through some transition), or are there? I don’t think evolution as I know of it disproves or proves a creator, but I’m sure my information on it has had a religious slant.

Evolution is an evolving process (heh). We know more than we did 100 years ago, but we’re always finding new things, new breakthroughs, new answers to questions. We know that the world is a lot older than 3,000 (the Christian answer to when we began). We just don’t know exactly how old. The journey is as important as the destination!

  1. When you look into your children’s eyes, does it ever cross your mind that they’re just going to be dust in a few decades. Does all of that lost brightness, joy, potential, just gone, seem sad or just matter of fact or doesn’t it cross your mind?

Matter of fact. We aren’t, then we are, then we aren’t.

  1. Not really going to go here, just barely. Doesn’t there being no life after this one make abortion even more horrible, since this little person’s one chance for life is being snuffed. Or does it matter?

It’s not a little person at that stage.

  1. Does an atheist ever wish God were true, provable?

Not particularly. The god you worship hasn’t done anything to make this a better world, so it puzzles me why anyone would worship to begin with.

  1. When you’re in the depths of sorrow or pain, with no one to pray to or hold you up; what do you do?

Turn to my family and friends (and myself) for comfort and guidance.

  1. I realize there are a lot of people out here hedging their bets and saying they believe in God and it has about the same meaning as I believe in eating right. For the people you’ve come across who truly do seem to believe, do you see any difference? More at peace? Happier? Or just more irritating?

They seem to be about the same as anyone else.

  1. Have you ever understood why a lot of “believers” talk so weird (almost a Christian version of baby talk) when they’re discussing religion. Okay, I threw that one in for me. Irritates the hell out of me when someone takes on that weird “do you know Jesus” voice. I’ve always wondered why they do it, when it is so likely to clear a room in under a minute.

Huh?

  1. When I’ve heard so many universe theories and explanations about time, space and everything having different rules than we understand; why when we say you can’t really apply man’s laws of nature to God does it seem to irritate the non-believer. When so much about the universe is unexplainable, why do you think God should have to be proven or rationalized?

The fact that we haven’t explained everything YET doesn’t mean it will never be explained. Nor does everything need an explanation. I don’t buy into supernatural. Science has guided man since time began.

  1. Do you ever look around at the beauty of nature, how complex even the function of our bodies are and think, how could this be some unplanned event?

Not a hard concept for me.

  1. Do you think non-believers tend to be more pessimistic? Don’t get your panties into a bundle over that one. I just mean since I believe I have something really awesome to look forward to; I have some of that I get to go to Disneyland feeling. Ceasing to exist just doesn’t have the same ring to it?

I used to believe in Santa Claus and get that Disneyland feeling, too. But I know Santa Claus doesn’t exist.

42
  1. What is the harm in believing in God (pick a God, any God) if it gives the believer comfort. Do you think its right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham?

–A question I’ve asked myself, which is why I don’t “Anti-witness” too much!

Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth?

–If someone has access to information, then yes (or maybe desperation to see meaning where there is none or an unwillingness to face up to their mortality)

  1. How do you explain, not just the origin of man, but the origin of all. What was before that. I realize you don’t have the answer to that and you only really believe what is proved, so I guess I’m asking for your best guess scenario. You can give me the short version. Real short.

– I don’t “believe” (except perhaps in logic), and nothing is “proved”, so I just have questions
3. If you’ve brought up evolution at all in the previous sentence, when you got to the origin of man part, how is it explained that there are no true remains of mixed species (part way through some transition), or are there? I don’t think evolution as I know of it disproves or proves a creator, but I’m sure my information on it has had a religious slant.

– Who says we’re not part way though any number of transitions?

  1. When you look into your children’s eyes, does it ever cross your mind that they’re just going to be dust in a few decades. Does all of that lost brightness, joy, potential, just gone, seem sad or just matter of fact or doesn’t it cross your mind?

–Well, I don’t have kids, but I feel that way looking at my parents – they’re both wonderful, moral, knowledgeable people who’ve gone out of their way to help others. Any God that created a universe where that was just thrown away, or made them suffer for eternity because they didn’t say the right prayers or perform the right ritual, would be an evil cunt – and yet I’m supposed to worship him?

  1. Not really going to go here, just barely. Doesn’t there being no life after this one make abortion even more horrible, since this little person’s one chance for life is being snuffed. Or does it matter?

–Abortion either is or isn’t wrong – I don’t see what no after-life has to do with that debate

  1. Does an atheist ever wish God were true, provable?

–Well, see my reply to 4 above, the nasty-old-guy-with-beard thing holds no appeal.
But I would love proof of a universe that made “sense” and immortality would be nice – I’d have a chance of finishing the spare room
7. When you’re in the depths of sorrow or pain, with no one to pray to or hold you up; what do you do?
–Exactly what you do, but without the praying (oddly, I find my prayers get answered just as often as yours)

  1. I realize there are a lot of people out here hedging their bets and saying they believe in God and it has about the same meaning as I believe in eating right. For the people you’ve come across who truly do seem to believe, do you see any difference? More at peace? Happier? Or just more irritating?

– Generally no difference (I know that this wasn’t your question, but I’ve noticed that some of the most unpleasant people I’ve met have been “believers” (not always religious, but in utopian things like socialism) whereas the most moral people, those I’d trust in any situation, have tended to be Godless sceptics)

  1. Have you ever understood why a lot of “believers” talk so weird (almost a Christian version of baby talk) when they’re discussing religion. Okay, I threw that one in for me. Irritates the hell out of me when someone takes on that weird “do you know Jesus” voice. I’ve always wondered why they do it, when it is so likely to clear a room in under a minute.

–can’t help you there, I’m afraid….

  1. When I’ve heard so many universe theories and explanations about time, space and everything having different rules than we understand; why when we say you can’t really apply man’s laws of nature to God does it seem to irritate the non-believer. When so much about the universe is unexplainable, why do you think God should have to be proven or rationalized?

–I think you need to have a better understanding of proof, it’s not that God has to be proven, but that he should fit into a verifiable system, other whys why chose your God over any one of an endless supply of unseen beings?
The irritation comes from the circular nature of the arguments used by believers– “If ghosts are real, show me one” “ah, ghosts are invisible – unless you believe in them” “get off my planet!”

  1. Do you ever look around at the beauty of nature, how complex even the function of our bodies are and think, how could this be some unplanned event?

–Yes - I never cease to be awed by the beauty and complexity of the universe – put your head in your hands – right, you’re holding the most complex, extraordinary thing that we know of in existence, even with the most powerful telescopes and microscopes we can’t find anything to rival it. We’re only just starting to map out the right questions to ask about it’s functioning, and it’s made of meat! – How could some silly stone-age fables tell us all we ever need to know about us, or the wonders around us?
Which sort of takes us back to Question 1 – “what’s the harm in wasting something amazing on something stupid?”

The rise of complexity is a fascinating subject, one that has only recently begun to make progress.

  1. Do you think non-believers tend to be more pessimistic? Don’t get your panties into a bundle over that one. I just mean since I believe I have something really awesome to look forward to; I have some of that I get to go to Disneyland feeling. Ceasing to exist just doesn’t have the same ring to it?

– Don’t get too smug Sonny, what happens if you’ve backed the wrong lot? Suppose, say, the Zoroastrians have got it right, you turn up at the pearly gates, spring in your step, hymn on your lips, expecting to get measured for wings and a harp, they go through your records - suddenly all Hell brakes loose, literally. Or Valhalla? Think your gonna fit right in there do you? (I reckon it’ll be your panties in a bundle, what with those noble warriors giving you wedgies all day).

43

There is a difference thou… your view or “catalyst” takes away from humans a good part of the credit. When we have to find in others the source of our goods and evil… we are denying a part of what we really are. We are the divine and the devilish… the sooner we stop blaming enities for it the sooner we will accept our impulses and our inherent qualities too.

Denying that we are "apes" in clothes makes us feel guilty of what we shouldn't and misunderstand how we function as sentient animals.
44

I doubt that Goo was mocking you. Atheists are not infallible ya’ know. :slight_smile:

45

IWLN said, “If as a young child, if you were told that your father (who you’ve never met, not sure why) was going to come and see you and that you were all going to Disneyland or whatever was your idea of the best place in the world to go; would you become happy and excited or would you demand proof of purchase on the tickets.”

You’re kidding, right?

46

We aren’t the ones who are uncomfortable with an unexplained God–YOU are. I (weak atheist/agnostic) have no problem saying, “I have seen no compelling evidence that there is a God, but that doesn’t rule out the possibility that one may exist … and that he/she/it might be like what the Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, witches, Zulus, Evenki tribesmen, etc., think he/she/it is like–or might be completely unlike any of those ideas.”

I don’t know exactly how the universe began. But I don’t NEED to know. Science is pursuing that question, and continually refining and rejecting hypotheses. That’s good enough for me. And as for God, I’m comfortable saying I don’t know what’s going on there, but I’ll wait and see. Until I see otherwise, I think it’s safe to assume the simplest explanation, mainly that there is no God.

No such animal. There aren’t “typical” atheists any more than there are “typical” Christians. I’ve met many bitter atheists, had some anger earlier in life myself (I’m much better now…), and also met very wonderful, compassionate, patient atheists–as well as kind and thoughtful Baptists, wicked, judgmental Methodists, cheerful Buddhists, manic Buddhists …

47

I’m going to try to answer these questions, but briefly, since it’s quite long and each question would deserve a whole thread.

The harm isn’t in the belief in itself but in the possible consequences : for instance trying to pass laws motivated by said beliefs and not by any rational argumentation. Or fighting war blowing up things or people as a consequence of religious beliefs. Or proselytism, which I find as irritating as, for instance trying to convince people that one can read the future in a tarot deck.

I don’t mind arguing against religion, generally speaking. I’ve on some occasions refrained from arguing with some people I had close relations with because I felt that they really needed this comfort and it being “bebunked” could seriously harm them (I’m thinking in particular to one of my former gf).

I’m going to receive flak for that, but gullibility yes, and often denial. In the same way I find gullible people who believe in haunted houses. To a lesser extend though, since religion is so widespread that it’s quite natural that most people will just believe what the majority of others also believe.

God doesn’t explain anything actually, since i can replace the word “universe” by the word “god” and ask the usual questions : “what was there before god” or “why is there a god rather than nothing”?

Secondly, the “what was there before the universe?” is essentially a meaningless question. Why it is so has been explained many times in many threads, so I won’t go on this one.

Thirdly, even assuming that there should a “cause” for the universe, it doesn’t any way support the concept of god. There’s no reason to assume that such a cause would have to be a being, let alone a being having any interest in mankind, let alone a benevolent interest, and let alone a particular “brand” of god.

Finally, I’ve no answer about the question of the origin of the universe, I don’t even know wether such a question make sense, and more importantly I’ve no reason to believe that we, as human beings, are actually intellectually equipped to be able to find/understand this answer (assuming that said answer actually exists). It might be totally beyond our understanding, since after all we’re basically big brained apes for whom it had been useful to be able to create tools, for instance, but not particulary to be able to understand everything.

Evolution indeed doesn’t prove or disprove a creator. But evolution just isn’t a theory you can argue against. It’s just a fact. You should read one of the numerous thread about it if you have some questions about it (like the one you asked) . Arguing against evolution, at this point in time is roughly akin to arguing against the theory of gravity. The proofs are just completely overwhelming.

I don’t have children. But yes, it cross my mind of course that we all be dust in a few decades. That might be sad, that might be frightening, but that’s not a reason to believe in god. In a similar way, if you’re very poor, it might be sad, but it’s not a reason to believe that a stack of bills is going to appear magically under your nose.

Doesn’t matter to me. A foetus who is some weeks old don’t even know he’s alive. It’s not sadder that thinking that Mr X and Miss Y never met but could have had wonderful children together if they had met, had married eachother, etc…These wonderful children won’t ever exist.

I know some atheist who wish that there would be some god. Generally, they (I, at least) just think that the lack of god is just a fact of life, like the fact you’re going to become old and die. It might have been more pleasant otherwise, but it’s just not so. We’ve to deal with it.

Beside, it depends what kind of god you’re talking about. Even amongst christians, some have a perception of god such that it would be quite pleasant if they were right. But some others have beliefs such as I would really don’t like them to be right. For instance, a god who would punish eternally people for necessarily limited “sins”, sometimes defined arbitrarily, and despite the fact that said god created them unable not to sin. Or the god who, according to the Bible, ordered the Hebrews to slaughter whole people, women and children included. There are plenty of conception of “god” which I would feel would be a nightmare rather than something providing hope.

The same everybody does. I suffer through the pain, try to forget about it, try to find some support from actual living human beings, try to find a way out…

I didn’t notice any significant difference between these two groups. There are as much happy and unhappy people, as much irritating and non irritating people in both, IMO.

Can’t answer, since this kind of behavior and witnessing is essentially an american phenomenon. It doesn’t happen around here.

For the same reason you would want me to prove that there are fairies dancing in my backyard at night, or that there’s indeed a god, but who is malevolent and anyway only interested in some race of intelligent cabbages growing on a planet orbiting Sirius, and not at all in mankind. In other words because I’ve no objective reason to believe in such a thing. What other things do you believe in which are nor proven nor rationalized? How many gods do you believe in?
There are things in the universe which still aren’t explained, and perhaps some won’t ever be explained, but this, as I already explained, had no bearing on the existence or non-existence of a god, let alone a particular “brand” of god. This “creator-god” explanation is totally arbitrary and anthropocentric. And how do you explain god?

As for the function of our bodies, evolution took care of that (and anyway they’re a long way from being perfect). As for beauty, it’s in the eye of the beholder, and it doesn’t require order or intent.

Do you sometimes look around at ugly things and wonder how this could have been intended by a benevolent and perfect god?

Honestly I wouldn’t know. For instance, I don’t perceive significantly more or less fear of death amongst believers than amongst non-believers. Believers possibly feel a little better about it, but it isn’t really blatant. One case, though, where belief in an afterlife definitely comes in handy, generally, is when people are faced with the death of other persons they loved. It certainly gives them some relief.
I would note by the way that believers could be more fatalist and less eager to fix what appears to need being fixed since they expect everything to be eventually solved in a positive way in the afterlife/ after judgement day, etc…But that isn’t necessarily and blatantly true, either.

As a general comment, I would say that you insisted a lot on the “feel good” elements of the belief in god. Which is of course not an argument supporting his existence.

48

IWLN, your OP has too many questions to go through all of them, even though many I think have done a great job doing so. But I only wanted to concentrate on the first one, since the time to do all would cause a post 12 times as long as this one.

  1. What is the harm in believing in God (pick a God, any God) if it gives the believer comfort. Do you think it’s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham?

Yes, I do, particularly when they ask me of my honest opinion, because I think that quite a few believers (but not all) have more strength to make it without faith, than what many religious leaders give them credit for. Besides theologians who make a living from their flock, have a self-interest in seeing to it that they remain the faithful sheep they want them to be. If more seen it through an atheist’s eyes, the theologians would be out of a job. Hell, if many a believer seen it though a preachers eyes, they would still be out of a job, if only they spoke their honest opinion on Sunday’s too. At least a study done with mainline liberal Protestant churches in CA (United Methodist, Episcopal, United Presbyterian, United Church of Christ) reflected that two-thirds of those preachers had serious doubts about Jesus’ divinity; half had serious doubts about the existence of God (“The Mind of the Bible-Believer” Prometheus Books, page 38). If anything an atheist says to a believer shakes their faith, then it was probably something they never really had to begin with. This question I highlighted in bold type speaks volumes from you. I get the impression, you‘re like some other Christians, who have told me flat out, that if they were wrong and it was a sham, under no circumstances, would they ever want to know about it. Is this you? With your faith, do you ever ask yourself if it is based on wishful or critical thinking? Which is more likely to be right way to seek out the truth? The former or the latter? Do you have more respect for the preacher who will tell you on Sunday about how important it is to have faith in God, but yet they are in that 50% category that has serious doubts about His existence, or do you have more respect for an atheist who will tell you ever day their honest opinion on it? I’ve heard from enough Christians who have said that their faith has often been a struggle for them. I guess I don’t recall from a religious person that hasn’t struggled with it. Anybody that has that much of a struggle with it, should have one thinking just how credible it really is. I don’t see anyone having any faith issues with gravity, do you? No faith is necessary because it is a fact. As to what harm is there is in believing in any God, I have no doubt that for many it is a harmless belief, in which some may get a very powerful placebo effect out of it, but I feel the same as Bertrand Russell in this regard:

*The question of the truth of a religion is one thing, but the question of its usefulness is another. I am as firmly convinced the religions do harm as I am that they are untrue.

The harm that is done by a religion is of two sorts, the one depending on the kind of belief which it thought ought to be given to it, and the other upon the particular tenets believed. As regards the kind of belief: it is thought virtuous to have Faith–that is to say, to have a conviction which cannot be shaken by contrary evidence. Or, if contrary evidence might induce doubt, it is held that contrary evidence must be suppressed.*

I feel like why some believers may not like an atheist’s opinions, is because their faith depends on many constantly reminding them on a regular basis what they wish to believe. An atheist’s opinion gets in the way of their faith. IMO, faith operates heavily on suggestion, group psychology, peer pressure, and other means that appeals to a believers emotions and wishful thinking far more than through their intellect. They are really not convinced by arguments. A billion facts to the contrary would mean nothing to a man of faith. Faith is the most overrated virtue I think a person can have. It’s so overrated, it shouldn’t even be considered a virtue.

Faith is believing in something that nobody in his right mind would believe.–said by Archie Bunker from an episode in “All in the Family.”

JZ

49

  1. No harm at all, unless they go on some kinda Crusade, blow up the WTC, etc. Religion is part of culture, so I don’t consider the religious ignorant unless they deliberately ignore material science, e.g., Rush Limbaugh’s claim that God wouldn’t let species go extinct (not good ones, anyway).

  2. Life is a trick of entropy. The earth is a bucket of soup boiling in the hot sun. Life is an expression of this heat/disorder. G (free energy)= delta H(heat of formation) - T delta So (temp x energy). We exist because we are energetically favorable. Thus no life on Pluto. All is fire, said Heraclitus, and he was right.

  3. Here’s a tip: science can’t “prove” anything, only disprove or support hypotheses (google “Karl Popper”). Evolution isn’t “proven,” but it’s so strongly supported that even really good biologists like the late great SJ Gould would mention “proof” of evolution. The “law” of gravity isn’t “proven,” either, and I can find nitpicking examples where it doesn’t apply. But it is very strongly supported. There are too many “missing links” that are no longer missing to cite them all.

  4. “When you look into your children’s eyes, does it ever cross your mind that they’re just going to be dust in a few decades. Does all of that lost brightness, joy, potential, just gone, seem sad or just matter of fact or doesn’t it cross your mind?”

That’s why life matters, you lovable dunderhead. I like the “or doesn’t it cross your mind?” part, more evidence of the Atheist=Emotionless Robot belief discussed in another thread yesterday. There is a Japanese term, “mono no aware,” the poignant awareness of fleeting beauty. The fact that things don’t last forever makes life more amazing.

  1. 2/3 of all pregnancies spontaneously abort. Rabbits can abort pregnancies when they are short of food- why shouldn’t humans be able to abort when they are unprepared to nurture children?
    As one of my relatives used to say, “Wouldn’t you rather be dead than know your mother wished you were never born?”

  2. “Does an atheist ever wish God were true, provable?”

Nothing is provable. See #3 above. I’m sure everyone wishes the universe made perfect sense. But it doesn’t appear to from our perspective. Lord Russell was asked what he’d say to God if he was wrong about El’s non-existance: “Not enough evidence, God! not enough evidence.”

  1. “When you’re in the depths of sorrow or pain, with no one to pray to or hold you up; what do you do?”

Ol’ Buddhist trick:ask yourself, “Where does this pain arise from?” Keep going down the trail of causation until you reach “selfish, ego-based desire.” Then realize you are part of an eternal cycle of flowing energy, and your pain is an illusion caused by the self/other ego dichotomy. Become filled with wonder at the vastness which you are a part of, then rinse and repeat.

  1. Righto, no one reaches inner peace through Pascal’s Wager. But lots of folks have peace without religion.

  2. Religion is a subjective experience, like how you feel about a sunset. Our culture doesn’t deal well with feelings, deep thoughts, etc. Thus the funny voice.

  3. Religion cannot be rationalized; it would defeat the purpose. But material phenomenon (e.g., origin of man) therefore shouldn’t be “religionalized.”

  4. “Do you ever look around at the beauty of nature, how complex even the function of our bodies are and think, how could this be some unplanned event?”

No, I think the exact opposite. See #2 above.

  1. There are lots of reasons to look forward to death; it’s actually not a scary prospect, but merely the opposite of life. My whole family is atheistic; I was raised an atheist. But funerals were always rockin’ fun, with ham amd liquor. We’d remember grandpa, and be sad he’s gone, but happy he (and we) had ever existed. See #4 above.

Let me add: I believe I have as coherent and comforting a world view as a theistic person. My beliefs are (obviously) tinted with Buddhism, an “atheistic religion” (as the Pope called it), but they are mostly based on my scientific training.

good luck to you. And I won’t see you on the other side.

50

Hi IWLN. First, thanks for making your questions non-inflammatory. I appreciate that. I won’t quote the questions, just the numbers.

  1. The danger of religion is when the believer is absolutely convinced that he or she has THE answer for everyone else. If you think birth control is wrong and don’t want to use it, fine. However if you tell me that since God agrees with you I’m not allowed to use it either - not fine. These same people who are so convinced also cannot prove the existence of their god, but retreat to faith. That is fine to run their lives, but not to run mine.

  2. We don’t know why it happened, but we know when it happened, and what happened after the Big Bang. It is amazing that we know this much. If any religion, got it even close to right, I’d be impressed. However, despite supposed direct contact with the creator of the universe, they all got the story wrong.

  3. You basically don’t understand evolution. There are no “mixed species”. There are plenty of transitional forms - in fact every species that doesn’t go extinct is a transitional form. Try to read some books on evolution, or cruise the talk.origins site, and don’t get your information from creationists who I am sorry to say lie through their teeth.

  4. So? Actually it doesn’t, but thinking that heaven would be nice is not the same thing as being convinced heaven exists. I also don’t have to worry about them going to hell, don’t I?

  5. No more horrible than a fertilized egg not implanting, or a miscarriage at a few weeks, or the non-existence of the tens of babies we could have had if we just bred and bred.

  6. What difference would it make? I used to believe in god, and I’m the same person now as I was then, and the world is the same too. BTW, God is definitely provable - if there was a pillar of fire that parted some seas, that would be enough proof for me. If Exodus were true, only a fool who was there would not believe in god. But the evidence of the existence of god seems to have vanished the closer we get to history and not fairy tales.

  7. I’ve got a family, and I’ve got my inner strength. I don’t think praying to imaginary beings would do me any good - my brain does not stop working even when I get depressed.

  8. People believe because of the way they are, and are not the way they are because they believe.

  9. Never heard this.

  10. Who says the universe is unexplainable. Anyhow, a demonstration of god is not the same thing as writing god equations. Since we know about god, supposedly, god has interacted with the physical world. This interaction has left evidence. This doesn’t have to be one of god’s whiskers, but could easily be information not obtainable other ways, or miracles with real eyewitness accounts. And don’t tell me people back then were too unsophisticated to understand at least a high level account of the Big Bang. Ever read Leviticus? It makes a VCR owners manual seem clear as day! Nope, the more we know about the past the wronger the Bible gets. I grew up Jewish,
    and even as an atheist I fully believed in David’s kingdom. Wrong - I was just as gullible about that as a creationist. However once the evidence is strong against it I gave up my belief, reluctantly to be sure. That’s the difference.

  11. Our bodies may be unplanned, but they are anything but random. Anyhow, do you really believe that god made sunsets for our enjoyment, like the curator of an art museum?

  12. Nope. I’m naturally an optimist, must be genetic. I like that there are no limits to humanity. Living after death would be cool, but Valhalla would be so much nicer than heaven, wouldn’t it?

Just one thing more: will you read about evolution, and be willing to change your opinion? Please ask questions about areas you don’t understand of find doubtful. Not that this has anything to do with atheism, but convincing even one person about evolution is a mitzvah in my book.

51

O.K., I’m gonna try to tackle #10 now. First of all, here’s the thread started awhile back by Sentient that deals with the disingenuous question, “What came before the big bang?”
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=203743&highlight=universe
I think it should be required reading before anyone asks that question.

First of all, while it’s true that there’s a lot we haven’t figured out yet, you seem to be implying that the current body of knowledge in physics is just guesswork. This couldn’t be further from the truth. If you really want to understand what’s been done in the field, you absolutely need to read Stephen Hawking’s A Brief History of Time. I think you will be absolutely amazed at the painstaking calculations and reasoning that has been applied to the subject. A lot of theories are still in their infancy. From what I can understand, superstring theory, for one, has a long way to go. But other theories are quite ironclad. The Theory of Relativity has been successfully demonstrated to be true over and over, to the point that the remaining doubt as to its veracity is miniscule. Read the book, and you will discover that a lot of these things are not guesses or wishful thinking, but are verified by objective experimentation and observation. That doesn’t mean it couldn’t all be proven wrong tomorrow, but we have to go with what we know right now.

When I read about the things that scientists have figured out, and the sometimes ironclad logic that was used, that makes perfect sense when explained, but that I couldn’t have thought of by myself in a million years, it just floors me. I think what truly amazing beings we humans are. That’s what gives me that “going to Disneyland” feeling.:slight_smile:

Just one example: We know the universe is expanding, but you might wonder how we know. Stars in the sky appear only as points of light to us, but we know from the Doppler effect that if a star is moving away from us, that the light wavelength will be stretched, and it will appear more red, while a star moving towards us will appear more blue, just like a police siren appears to lower in pitch as it moves away from you. So they looked at other galaxies, and discovered that all the stars were red-shifted. In other words, everything else in the universe is moving away from us. The reasoning is ironclad, but I never would have thought of that in a million years!

But if it’s unexplained, why give it the name “God” at all? We know we live in the universe; it’s not a matter of being more “comfortable” with it. To turn your question around, why are you more comfortable with an unexplained God than an unexplained Invisible Pink Unicorn? I think this is the source of irritation to which you refer. A lot of theists proclaim their belief in God, and attach all sorts of supposed characteristics to this God, but when backed into a corner and asked to define this God, simply cop-out by saying it’s a “mystery”. It’s like the word “God” stands for a known, sentient being with very specific powers and characteristics on the one hand, but simply stands for “everything we don’t know” on the other, and the word is used interchangeably from one to the other, depending what’s convenient to the argument. If God exists, and you can know anything about God, then you should be able to make objective observations. On the other hand, if God cannot be observed in any way, then there is no reason to believe that He exists. On the third hand;), if God simply stands for whatever we don’t know, then I see no point in giving it the name “God”.

I don’t think it should be at odds with creation, either. God doesn’t have to be at odds with science at all, so long as you admit that it’s simply a belief. When we run into trouble is when theists mis-apply scientific principles to their God-belief. The moment you claim you have scientific proof of God, you open to door to people rationally explaining why you are mistaken.

Hmmm…you’ll have to give some cites for that. I can’t evaluate whether they were justified in what they said without any context.

52

Oops, here’s the link without the annoying highlighting:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=203743

53

So, over to the OP, I think. IWLN (what’s that stand for, BTW?), I’m sure you’ve noticed something of a pattern in the responses. Your questions, as phrased, seem to sum up many of the misunderstandings devout Christians have about evolutionary science in general and lack of Christian belief in particular, and I believe that if one reads the responses carefully one can see where these misunderstandings occur. So, any comments? Found any surprises in the responses? Agree or disagree with anything you’ve read here?

54

I’ve heard this one before. Substitute OZ or toyland for Disneyland, and what is your answer, IWLN?

55

First, I’ll tackle this

One of the critical moments in my becoming atheist came when a friend pointed out to me that hypothesizing God as the origin of everything doesn’t add anything. It just pushes the problem back one step further.

  1. “Where did the Universe come from?” “I don’t know”

  2. “Where did the Universe come from?” “God.”
    “Where did God come from?” “I don’t know”

This is where Occam’s razor comes in: as far as the begining of the Universe, God is an unneccessary and unhelpful hypothesis.

  1. What is the harm in believing in God (pick a God, any God) if it gives the believer comfort. Do you think it’s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham? Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth?

If your God tells you to go kill everyone of that other nation, it’s harmful. Ever read the Old Testament?

  1. How do you explain, not just the origin of man, but the origin of all. What was before that. I realize you don’t have the answer to that and you only really believe what is proved, so I guess I’m asking for your best guess scenario. You can give me the short version. Real short.

Real Short: Big Bang. Stuff condenses into stars and planets. Life evolves.

  1. If you’ve brought up evolution at all in the previous sentence, when you got to the origin of man part, how is it explained that there are no true remains of mixed species (part way through some transition), or are there? I don’t think evolution as I know of it disproves or proves a creator, but I’m sure my information on it has had a religious slant.

Many examples, as others have said. One of the best-documented transitions is from apes to humans.

  1. When you look into your children’s eyes, does it ever cross your mind that they’re just going to be dust in a few decades. Does all of that lost brightness, joy, potential, just gone, seem sad or just matter of fact or doesn’t it cross your mind?
  2. Not really going to go here, just barely. Doesn’t there being no life after this one make abortion even more horrible, since this little person’s one chance for life is being snuffed. Or does it matter?
  3. Does an atheist ever wish God were true, provable?

For a while I was mad at God for not existing. Now I don’t wish anything, one way or the other. The Santa Claus parallel comes to mind here.

  1. When you’re in the depths of sorrow or pain, with no one to pray to or hold you up; what do you do?

Share it with friends (doesn’t prayer do this, too?), rely on my own strengths.

  1. I realize there are a lot of people out here hedging their bets and saying they believe in God and it has about the same meaning as I believe in eating right. For the people you’ve come across who truly do seem to believe, do you see any difference? More at peace? Happier? Or just more irritating?

Some Christian friends are wonderful people. Most atheist friends are wonderful people. That may be pure chance - I don’t know as many atheists as Christians.

  1. Have you ever understood why a lot of “believers” talk so weird (almost a Christian version of baby talk) when they’re discussing religion. Okay, I threw that one in for me. Irritates the hell out of me when someone takes on that weird “do you know Jesus” voice. I’ve always wondered why they do it, when it is so likely to clear a room in under a minute.

Yes, it’s very annoying. Also the “prayers of the just”: “I just want to thank you,…” Every group has its cliches and fad words.

  1. When I’ve heard so many universe theories and explanations about time, space and everything having different rules than we understand; why when we say you can’t really apply man’s laws of nature to God does it seem to irritate the non-believer. When so much about the universe is unexplainable, why do you think God should have to be proven or rationalized?

Lots of things I don’t understand. I don’t theorize about them without any information. I have no information about God that I believe trustworthy, so I don’t theorize about her.

  1. Do you ever look around at the beauty of nature, how complex even the function of our bodies are and think, how could this be some unplanned event?

Amazingly cool. Amazing that anything exists at all, let alone something as amazing as us. The “God” explanation doesn’t help, tho (see above).

  1. Do you think non-believers tend to be more pessimistic? Don’t get your panties into a bundle over that one. I just mean since I believe I have something really awesome to look forward to; I have some of that I get to go to Disneyland feeling. Ceasing to exist just doesn’t have the same ring to it?

Well, more optimistic about death, perhaps. Of course, believers also have more to worry about: what if you end up in the other place?

Actually, tho, many believers seem more pessimistic in general. For instance, do you believe that humans are born full of sin? (That’s official theology in many branches of Christianity.) I think atheist parents are more positive about their children’s inborn nature than the doctrine of Original Sin is.

Okay, I’m going to stop for now. I realize some of these should be their own topic, so I’m just looking for the condensed version. Remember I’m not trying to step on anyone’s toes. Just want to know what you think. Respectfully (really), IWLN **
[/QUOTE]

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Well, being the new unbeliever on the block, so to speak, let me try to answer some of these questions from my own personal perspective (i.e., these answers reflect just my views and not necessarily those of other atheists):

I have a number of family members and close friends who are deeply religious, and I have never tried to convince them of the follow of their ways. As you say, as long as their beliefs bring them comfort and don’t lead them to harm others, more power to them.

Except… Some people have used their religious beliefs to harm other people, whether through religious persecution, religious fanatacism, or just plain “God told me to kill my neighbor” lunacy, and sometimes I think we’d all be better off if we coulkd learn to love our neighbors and find comfort without needing an omnipotent third party to justify our actions.

Also, as a skeptic I feel it is important to convince people not to believe in illogical things like psychic healing, astrology, chiropractic medicine, acupuncture, etc., because not only can those beliefs be harmful if they are overly relied upon (“Why go to a doctor for antibiotics when I can be cured with a simple neck adjustment?”), but they also tend to leave people susceptible to believing in many other crazy ideas (some of which may be even more harmful). And I guess I’m not sure why religious beliefs should be exempted from this. If it is OK to tell people that astrology is a crock, even though it brings people comfort, why would it be wrong to tell them that religion is a crock as well?

Short answer? I really don’t know for sure. Fortunately, I’m not the sort who needs to know the answer to everything to the point where I will accept any crazy story that purports to explain things.

Well, I don’t have any children yet, but I do have a wife and parents and siblings I love very much. And yes, it does seem sad to me that some day they will be gone, with nothing left behind but my memories of them. I have learned to accept this, however, just as I accepted the fact that all my beloved childhood pets eventually died and that I eventually lost contact with numerous dear friends who moved away. Sure, it would be nice to think that there is a heaven where we all be reunited someday, but if wishing were enough to justify belief, well, then I would believe I am married to Cindy Crawford and have more money than Bill Gates.

I’m not a huge fan of abortion on demand and think that those who focus exclusively on a woman’s right to choose ignore the very real fact that it is a human life being snuffed out. But my belief that there is no afterlife has no more to do with my feelings on abortion than they do on contraception (what about all those poor eggs that never get fertilized and turn into fetuses…)

I do, sure. But, as I said before , wishing alone does not justify belief.

Cry on my wife’s shoulder, call my mom, talk to friends…

I haven’t met too many “perfect” people in my life. Most have their ups and downs like the rest of us. Even those who “truly believe” have their down days, and I’ve met plenty of non-believers who seem to be consistently cheery. So no, on the whole, I don’t see a difference.

Again, why should God be any different than astrology, TV psychics, UFOs, acupuncture, etc.? Either we live in a rational world, in which case we expect things to make sense, or we don’t, in which case anything and everything is possible. I choose to believe we live in a rational world, and therefore do not believe in UFOs, the abilities of John Edwards, or God.

Nope, although I am constantly amazed at just how wonderful the natural world around me is.

Pessimistic? Not particularly. Sketpical and even cynical, perhaps, but not pessimistic.

Regards,

Barry

57

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by IWLN *
**When I was tip-toeing through another site, there seemed to be some anger and name calling at God. That made me wonder if a “typical” atheist had a grudge or fact-based belief.**As others have pointed out, there’s really no such thing as a typical atheist. The variety of responses you’ve received here should be an emphatic demonstration of this.

However, there’s a human tendency for people to segregate themselves into comfortable communities. The Straight Dope philosophy tends to be one of thought and consideration, so we’ve self-selected ourselves as atheists who don’t like to proselytize our lack of belief and convince the faithful we’re wrong. As you’ve seen, we’ll respond if asked, but we don’t attack. Those who do attack, in fact, are generally shunned; see the thread in the Pit about badchad’s ill-conceived attempt to call out Polycarp for an excellent example.

By contrast, another site may be made up of atheists who do, in fact, attack the faithful as ignorant and/or delusional and/or whatever, and who consider it their mission to rid the planet of the “scourge” of irrational magicalism. Perhaps the site you visited was a collection of people who ridicule God not because of a paradoxical faith — i.e., they say they’re atheists but haven’t truly rid themselves of belief and therefore lash out at the deity — but rather because they know it gets the goat of the faithful to denigrate and mock Jesus. In other words, they’re not calling God names because they hate him (a sort of “I hate you, leave me alone” position that seems to be what you’re asking about); instead, they’re calling a nonexistent entity names because they’re trying to shake people out of what they consider sheep-like complacency.

That’s merely speculation, though. I don’t presume to speak for all atheists, any more than you presume to speak for all Christians.

As long as your inquiries are as open-minded as respectful as these, and as long as it seems like you’re gathering information to aid your own understanding, I will endeavor to give the topic fair consideration. But if it starts to turn into an argument, or an attempt to undermine my atheism, I can’t promise I’ll stick around. As I said repeatedly in the thread I linked, I’m not trying to convince anybody of the wrongness of their position or the rightness of mine; I attempt only to explain the basis of my philosophy and why I believe what I believe. I’ve seen too many of these discussions devolve into agenda-driven nitpicking to perceive any value in the lobbing of old arguments between two firmly entrenched and immovable positions, and I won’t participate in that sort of pointless debate. Precluding that outcome, please feel to ask whatever you like.

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  1. “Where did the Universe come from?” No idea.

  2. “Where did the Universe come from?” I’m afraid I don’t understand this question.
    “Where did God come from?” I have no idea.

  3. What is the harm in believing in God (pick a God, any God) if it gives the believer comfort. Do you think it’s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham? Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth?

I think that if someone believes in God, and it gives them comfort, it would be an act of cruelty on my part to attempt to convince them otherwise. I believe it implies a greater degree of gullibility, less intelligence, and less growth. HOWEVER, this is not ironclad. I know a whole gang of people who can smoke my Mensa butt out any day of the week who believe in God. They might have other qualities that I lack or am in short supply of, such as empathy, curiosity about spirituality, willingness to believe, etc. I don’t think it’s much of a value judgement either way.

  1. How do you explain, not just the origin of man, but the origin of all. What was before that. I realize you don’t have the answer to that and you only really believe what is proved, so I guess I’m asking for your best guess scenario. You can give me the short version. Real short.

Real short? Who cares? Slightly longer version: If you want to know what happened before everything was here, that’s going to be a problem. We can only trace back physical things. If you want to roll the clock back before there were any physical things, how are we supposed to trace this? The traces end when there’s no “stuff” to trace.

  1. If you’ve brought up evolution at all in the previous sentence, when you got to the origin of man part, how is it explained that there are no true remains of mixed species (part way through some transition), or are there? I don’t think evolution as I know of it disproves or proves a creator, but I’m sure my information on it has had a religious slant.

I am not a scientist, and I stopped taking science in high school Bio I. Nevertheless, I will run my ignorance up the flagpole for all to salute. True remains of mixed species. OK, here we go. The whole idea of species was manufactured out of whole cloth by humans. It’s just an “idea.” Of course there are no mixed species. Anyone who discovered such a beast simply named it after themselves and called it a new species!

  1. When you look into your children’s eyes, does it ever cross your mind that they’re just going to be dust in a few decades. Does all of that lost brightness, joy, potential, just gone, seem sad or just matter of fact or doesn’t it cross your mind?

No kids, so I can’t really answer that one. I did have to put down my dog about two years ago, and knowing that my baby girl was not going to be waiting for me beyond the rainbow bridge was absolutely crushing. I loved my dog, and I was killing her just as surely as if I had cut her throat by my own hand. I was incredibly sad for months. It still makes me (a little) sad, but I’d go get another dog in a heartbeat. I like having that brightness and joy around my house.
5. Not really going to go here, just barely. Doesn’t there being no life after this one make abortion even more horrible, since this little person’s one chance for life is being snuffed. Or does it matter?

Damn, that’s a tough one. As an atheist, I think that this life is all we ever get, so it should be the best we can possibly manage to make it. I would MUCH rather see adoption centers set up so that pregnant women had somewhere to go to have their babies and place them with a family, and I think that abortion for convenience is somehow… not so good. I can’t see how it is my right to interfere. I would not want to be born the child to a mother who didn’t want me, and doesn’t like me. Is that a fate worse than death? Hard to say. I think it could be.

  1. Does an atheist ever wish God were true, provable?

I think it would be great if God came down (or up) here and showed Himself off. Why not? I’d find it immensely comforting and would welcome it wholeheartedly.

  1. When you’re in the depths of sorrow or pain, with no one to pray to or hold you up; what do you do?

I suffer. Eventually, I get over it and get back on with things. What else is there to do? I have to pay the bills, I can’t just sit there and go to pieces forever.

  1. I realize there are a lot of people out here hedging their bets and saying they believe in God and it has about the same meaning as I believe in eating right. For the people you’ve come across who truly do seem to believe, do you see any difference? More at peace? Happier? Or just more irritating?

I’m going to almost answer this question. The people I’ve come across who are happier and more at peace haven’t preached to me about anything. I wouldn’t know about their beliefs, it never was an issue. However, TONS of irritating believers have come my way.

  1. Have you ever understood why a lot of “believers” talk so weird (almost a Christian version of baby talk) when they’re discussing religion. Okay, I threw that one in for me. Irritates the hell out of me when someone takes on that weird “do you know Jesus” voice. I’ve always wondered why they do it, when it is so likely to clear a room in under a minute.

Never really thought about it.

  1. When I’ve heard so many universe theories and explanations about time, space and everything having different rules than we understand; why when we say you can’t really apply man’s laws of nature to God does it seem to irritate the non-believer. When so much about the universe is unexplainable, why do you think God should have to be proven or rationalized?

I think that a proof of God would have to be the single most bulletproof set of statements I have ever seen. You’re trying to prove that an all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful being currently exists in this universe, made all this stuff, and is currently influencing individual human lives through psychic communication and supernatural events. I would want to see THAT shit on paper.

Or, we can theorize something about gravity.

  1. Do you ever look around at the beauty of nature, how complex even the function of our bodies are and think, how could this be some unplanned event?

well, in either case, it will have been inevitable.

  1. Do you think non-believers tend to be more pessimistic? Don’t get your panties into a bundle over that one. I just mean since I believe I have something really awesome to look forward to; I have some of that I get to go to Disneyland feeling. Ceasing to exist just doesn’t have the same ring to it?

You’re probably right. That’s something I’d never want to take away from you. Hang on to that for those of us who can’t hang on to the fairytale.

59

Not an atheist, but I would like to give a few answers, as I am not your standard flavour theist either.

  1. What is the harm in believing in God (pick a God, any God) if it gives the believer comfort. Do you think it?s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham? Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth?

No harm in believing, their is only harm in using such belief as an excuse to cause harm.

  1. How do you explain, not just the origin of man, but the origin of all. What was before that. I realize you don?t have the answer to that and you only really believe what is proved, so I guess I?m asking for your best guess scenario. You can give me the short version. Real short.

The Universe cannot fail to exist, and inteligent life cannot fail to be created within it. The Universe is a necessary result of non dimensional nothingness.
3. If you?ve brought up evolution at all in the previous sentence, when you got to the origin of man part, how is it explained that there are no true remains of mixed species (part way through some transition), or are there? I don?t think evolution as I know of it disproves or proves a creator, but I?m sure my information on it has had a religious slant.

Evolution provides a method by which life changes from one form to another, and it is consistent with all life we know about. You are I hope aware of transitional species, like the legged fish, slow worm, flightless birds,…
5. Not really going to go here, just barely. Doesn?t there being no life after this one make abortion even more horrible, since this little person?s one chance for life is being snuffed. Or does it matter?

Doesn’t your certainty that life goes on forever past death, mean that abortion isn’t a horrible thing as noone ever dies in an absolutely terminal sense?

  1. I realize there are a lot of people out here hedging their bets and saying they believe in God and it has about the same meaning as I believe in eating right. For the people you?ve come across who truly do seem to believe, do you see any difference? More at peace? Happier? Or just more irritating?

I see many people who say they believe in God, but really only parrot what was taught to them as Children, with no sence of anything more than dog like devotion to its master.

  1. Have you ever understood why a lot of ?believers? talk so weird (almost a Christian version of baby talk) when they?re discussing religion. Okay, I threw that one in for me. Irritates the hell out of me when someone takes on that weird ?do you know Jesus? voice. I?ve always wondered why they do it, when it is so likely to clear a room in under a minute.

See answer to 8, these people are parroting what they learnt as Children, and do so in a Childish manner. These people are no more religious than Moonies.
10. When I?ve heard so many universe theories and explanations about time, space and everything having different rules than we understand; why when we say you can?t really apply man?s laws of nature to God does it seem to irritate the non-believer. When so much about the universe is unexplainable, why do you think God should have to be proven or rationalized?

Very very little of the Universe is unexplained from the incredibly small to the incredibly large, all that happens can be predicted well with the theories we have allready discovered. No nonbeliever feels that you can apply man’s laws to God, the application of the theories of man don’t require the existance of God. But if God exists and has an effect uppon the Universe we would expect to see signs of that effect. No signs of the effect of God have been found, God is either trying not to be found, or does not exist.

  1. Do you ever look around at the beauty of nature, how complex even the function of our bodies are and think, how could this be some unplanned event?

Emergent complexity from very simple processes occuring in large numbers is an amazing thing, very few people have anything more than a small understanding of this. But in any large system it is found that the whole deffinately is greater than the sum of its parts.
12. Do you think non-believers tend to be more pessimistic? Don?t get your panties into a bundle over that one. I just mean since I believe I have something really awesome to look forward to; I have some of that I get to go to Disneyland feeling. Ceasing to exist just doesn?t have the same ring to it?

Do you seek pleasure/emlightenment in this world, or wait until after you are dead?

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What’s the harm in believing in Santa Claus? None, really, except that you’re living in a fantasy world. And for organized religions, that fantasy world and its rules were created by people who were schizophrenic, power-hungry, and/or ignorant of the basics of modern accepted science.

Man was clearly the result of evolution. I mean, look at monkeys and apes, our closest living cousins; they look exactly like us. If God created man in his image, he gets no creativity points for monkeys.

The origin of everything, I don’t know. We might not ever know for sure. But we do know up to like the third millisecond of the big bang, which is not bad for a bunch of smart monkeys. And the answer “God did it” is just intellectually lazy. It’s just “I don’t know” without the embarrassment of admitting that you don’t know. If everybody had always thought that way, we still wouldn’t have control of fire.

There are. There are fossils of half-reptile half-birds. There are currently living fish that can crawl out of the water and breathe air. Just in human history we’ve taken wolves and made Great Danes and Shitzus.

We were all dust and we all will be dust. Oh well, nobody said life was special. The important thing is to create and enjoy that brightness here, where it exists, not to wait around for it to end so something better can start.

Nope, again, nobody ever said life was special or fair. Right now, I’ve got millions of little sperms that have the potential to become life, but never will. So what? Our existence until recently required the shotgun method of reproduction, now we’re saddled with overfertility. There are 6 billion people here right now, why do we need another one with uninterested parents?

Now, I am very much against causing unnecessary pain to beings that can feel it, so I would prefer that everyone use effective birth control or at least have early-term abortions, but I think it’s horrible to create an unwanted child.

Sure, that would be great. If God showed me that he existed, and he answered a few questions to my satisfaction (like, why does stuff suck so much, and why do you care what we think of you?), I would be happy to worship him and do what he says.

I’d also believe in Santa Claus if a fat guy in a red suit flew by in a sleigh pulled by eight tiny reindeer, but that’s not going to happen, either.

Get over myself. God is a crutch for the weak. You need to decide what kind of person you want to be and then act in a way to further that goal. If you don’t want to be a whiny bitch, than don’t. Now, you might need professional help and/or various medications to achieve that goal, but you can do it. Yeah, you’re all alone in the universe, but then, so is everybody else, and they get by, so deal.

More likely to want to tell me what to think. And that’s usually based off centuries-old oral traditions of an ancient civilization, so it really has no relevance today. And I would say Taoists and Buddhists are in better shape than most Christians, so it looks like accepting Jesus is actually heading in the wrong direction, happiness-wise.

God is like a parent for adults. He’s bigger, more powerful, and he will always protect you. I’m sure it’s a nice safe feeling, but I live in the real world, and I know I can’t hide behind my mommy’s dress forever.

All the strange cosmological theories are an attempt to make sense of what we know about how the universe works. Their validity is based on how well they fit what we currently know and how well they can predict the outcomes of future experiments. They may not make sense to you, and they may be too strange for one person to fully grasp at once, but if the math works out, that just means the universe is more complex than the surface of the planet we evolved on. We can understand things of an intermediate size in three dimensions, because that’s where we are.

God was one of our first attempts to make sense of the universe, but that was before we realized the importance of the scientific method, so it’s one of the worst theories. Why is the universe like it is? Because God made it that way. What is God? He is all powerful. What would happen if we smashed these two atoms together? Whatever God wants. What would we see if we could look at a star about to go nova? Whatever God wants. What does God want? Only he knows.

Do you see how pathetic those answers are? Human progress is achieved when people ask difficult questions and then try to find out the real answers.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, literally. A grove of trees in the savannah is so appealing because it is our natural home. Babies are so cute because we’re all descended from cute babies and parents who liked big eyes and chubby cheeks. If babies weren’t so cute, how would they ever survive their first crying spell? Nature in general is beautiful because it’s the only thing our species has ever seen.

Yes, our bodies are complex, but if you look closely, they seem to have been made by retards. We have blind spots in our vision because our optic nerves are wired backwards. Squids are wired better; how come we didn’t get that model? Our spines and limbs aren’t very well suited for walking upright, but even worse at walking on all fours. Our children are born premature, because their heads would otherwise be too big to fit through women’s pelvises. We can’t see very well, we can’t hear very well, and we can’t smell at all. We like to eat lots of fats and salt, which is fine if you have to hunt woolly mammoths, but pretty much guarantees a heart attack to anyone that can buy Slim Jims in bulk. We have too many teeth for our mouths. Our left sides are controlled by our right brains.

But all of these problems and all the handy complexities can be traced back to our ancestor species through slow accumulation of unplanned changes.

The thing is that the pessimists are usually right in the end. A donkey chasing a carrot on a stick has something to look forward to, too, but that just makes him a dumb ass. Besides, this heaven doesn’t sound so great anyway. You spend eternity basking in the glory of God? Sounds pretty good, if you’re God. Otherwise, what’s the point?

And nonexistence doesn’t scare me; I haven’t existed for the 10 billion years before now, and I won’t exist for the 10 billion years after now. In fact, roughly speaking, I don’t exist at all. Does that mean my life is futile? Only if I let it be. Does that mean the entire human race is ultimately all for nothing? Maybe, but isn’t it the height of arrogance to think all this stuff was created just for us? Sure, I wish we were more than a bunch of meat blobs scrounging around the surface of a backwater planet at the edge of an insignificant galaxy somewhere in an unfathomable expanse of mostly nothing, but wishing doesn’t make it so.