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Atheism is not a belief but rather a lack of belief(in the existence of gods).
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a)Depends on the god.
b)Depends on whether that god actually exists.
c)There is a TON of potential harm in believing in such things but I fail to see how that is relevant to atheism.
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No.As long as they leave me alone I am not interested in “deconverting” anyone.
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No but it DOES suggest a lapse in critical thinking.
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Abiogenesis is not my area and has nothing to do with atheism.
Why should we have to explain such things?
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I don’t know.
That short enough?
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Are you asking about transitional fossils?There are plenty!It is a common deception that creationists foster that there are no transitional fossils.
www.talkorgins.org/
that link will help you but evolution has nothing to do with atheism.
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No.As long as we only get this one short life to live then I will not waste any of it lamenting the fact that we cannot live forever.If I believed my children were somehow immortal then I would likely be less careful of them…less protective and if it turnmed out I was wrong then my crime of egotism may have cost me something TRULY precious.
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What lost joy/potential???Tell you what:YOU sit around waiting for heaven/immortality while I am dancing with my little girl and we shall see(or not ;)) who missed out on joy and potential.
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You are all over the fuckin’ map dude!What the fuck makes you think that every atheist is pro-choice?What the hell makes you think that ANY pro-choice person is into murdering children?
ABortion is a procedure to terminate a pregnancy BEFORE a life is brought into the world!
Moron.
If YOU are indicative of his taste in heralds then NO…ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY not!
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I go embarass some ignorant fundie on a message board!
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More out of their friggin’ gourd!
Yes, I DO understand.Largely the same reasons why the TV evangelists behave and speak the way they do.Part psychological and part “Hey it works!”
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Could you be a bit more vague?
/Sarcasm
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I don’t.
NEXT!
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Do me a favor:draw three cards at random from a shuffled deck adn look at them.
Now tell me:what are the odds you would draw THOSE three cards?
You cannot retroactively assign probabilities to events.The chance that the universe arose as it is now, through purely natural means is 1:1.No planning or deity required.
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If you truly believed that then you would be scouring the city looking for burning orphanages to dive into to rescue children from.And please spare me the “Suicide invalidates my Heaven ticket” baloney.That little chestnut was introduced as a rationalization to get around the very contradiction I bring up here.
Bullsh!t and next time keep it to yourself %$#&(!!
Your problem (well, one of them) is trying to fit atheists into tidy either/or boxes. There’s a third choice (and my own favourite): atheists can be people who grew up and realized that most of the rituals associated with religion were wastes of time, that being religious offered no protection against man-made evil, that someone who claimed to be religious could use it to rationalize man-made evil, and that entire religious structures are based on beliefs that are nonsensical or obsolete in the face of modern technology.
I didn’t need a grudge or a detailed logical fact-based belief process to stop believing in Santa Claus, either. I simply outgrew the need for such a belief.
There is nothing wrong with believing in a God if it gives you comfort. I personally believe there are greater things in this world than comfort though, and I guess I do percieve someone that seeks comfort above all else to be a little week.
However, once your belief in God short-circuits your critical thinking skills (including your critical thinking regarding religion) then I’ve got a problem. I believe that critical thinking is the only thing that can counteract evil, and I don’t look kindly on things that discourage it.
The orgin of it all? I honestly have no clue. I don’t think about it much, but is a pretty increadable world, isn’t it? I’m all for marveling at the mysteries of the universe. But I wouldn’t make any sense for me to pick some creation story at random (and it would be random as I was raised without religion- they all seem pretty much equally likely to me). I’m not too worried about there being things I don’t know.
Umm, isn’t everything a mixed species? Every living thing has parts that arn’t all that useful and parts that will probably be more useful with some modification. There arn’t discreet little stops on the evolutinary ladder. It’s all a continuum.
Yeah, it is kind of sad. The whole idea of time bugs me- how we are always losing the world that we just built. I try not to worry about it. Sometimes I try to think that time might as well happen all at once, and that something beautiful happening for an instance is kind of like it happening forever. What matters is that it happened. But it’s a hard one to contemplate.
No, because the fetus wasn’t really cognent enough to care. It’s not like it’s going to sit there and lament it’s lost life. If I’m in a bad mood, I might even say they’ve been saved from the drudgery and responsiblities of consciousness. But I try not to be in a bad mood =).
I’m not sure. It’d make things easier, because I wouldn’t constantly have to think about the world. But on the other hand, I thnk that is part of what makes us human. And most the Gods I know of arn’t all that pleasant. I’d rather us all die into oblivion than a good chunk of us die and go to hell. So I guess the answer is ultimately no.
I pray. It helps me organize my thoughts. It helps me figure out what it is a really want to ask for. And, it gives me some way to pour out my sorrow and try to transform it into something useful. I always liked the Wiccan modal of religious ceremony, where the idea is not to actually contact a supernatural being, but to come up with something to do using the metaphors you respond to that will help you focus your head and achieve what you want to do.
I also talk to friends, drink too much, cry, talk to the cat, go for long walks, write, listen to music and try to cope. It’s hard. It’s a hard world.
I’m not sure. I don’t really know what it is like to believe. I never even really believed in Santa Claus. So I can’t tell who truely believes in what and what it does for them. It’s not really within my realm of knowledge.
Yeah, it’s pretty wierd. I guess we all get used to acting a little funny when we are with like minded people. FWIW, I know lots of religious people who have talked about their religion in a very questioning, intellectual way.
Because it’s a cop out. Why should anything be anything? Who really cares? I guess I’m not a major rational/scientist type so I’m pretty cool with whole chunks of the universe being unexplainable. But once again, I’m not going to pick some theory at random. And it is annoying when people that did sit around talking about how you should believe their idea because it is right, but they have no real answer to the question of why I should believe that it is right. I’d rather let things be a mystery than to believe something that is wrong.
It’s a crazy and beautiful world, isn’t it? But it’s really not so random. For exampe, I’ve heard it said that the Earths position relative to the sun- which is friendly for life- is proof of a higher power. But if the Earth’s position to the sun wasn’t what it is, than I wouldn’t be here to contemplate. And if it was some other planet instead, I might be there contemplating that. So essentially, that proof is using itself as evidence. It’s begging the question.
It’s beautiful how this stuff all functions, but if it didn’t function that way, it’d function some other way and that’d be beautiful too. It’s neat that we have gravity, but if we didn’t have gravity it’d also be neat that everything flys around. We percieve everything as working together, but in reality, there is no other way that it can exist if it doesn’t work with things like the laws of physics.
Besides, if the world is so amazing and unbelievable, bringing a supernatural being makes things more amazing an unbelievable, not less. Try watching ads on television one day. Who the heck would plan something so bizarre?
I’m not sure. I know I’m pretty pessimistic, but I don’t think that is really a bad thing. Mostly I’m just trying to live my life the best I can.
Bryan, My problem? Hmmmm… I was actually trying to take you out of the tidy either/or boxes. “Typical” in quotes was actually to let you know that I realize you can’t lump people’s beliefs together. Guess I should have told you that. I don’t mind debate at all, but I’m not going to swap insults about our beliefs. The grudge part had to do with “your people”(I am teasing) calling God names and threatening bodily injury, if he existed. I didn’t understand the animosity. I could quote where, but it’s not important. Bummer about Santa. IWLN
Godless Skeptic, Waaaah. Boy you really hurt my feelings. Didn’t mean to tick you off. My questions had more to do with whether or not a “lack of belief in a god” changed your perception or decisions of different life events. You didn’t have to answer. I have really been impressed at the nice responses, even if they believed my beliefs to be silly or wrong. Skip posts with my name on them and try and have a nice day. IWLN
Many people have brought up the idea that there are lots of religions and unproveble beliefs out there, all claiming to be true. Without an objective criteria, how do you know which one is true?
Do you ever wonder that you believe the way you do simply because your family (or the society you grew up in) taught you to believe that way? And that if you grew up in a different society, you’d believe in a different God and have a different religion?
John, Fair question. I did grow up with parents who had a firm, but quiet belief in God. We were free to choose our own beliefs. I honestly don’t have a religion that I believe or support wholly. I don’t know if this will make sense, but hey, I do have my scoffguard on now. I don’t believe there are different Gods, only that people, different religions, different cultures have interpreted the same one differently. Religion seemed to become the definition for that particular God belief. Religion being man-made and subject to good and bad influences, doesn’t really represent God. I don’t believe that we have been shown all that we will eventually know. My belief in God has grown and become stronger, influenced by some pretty impressive life events. Too big to be coincidence, too small to qualify as miracles. One actually does qualify, to me. I am not willing to elaborate on a site like this, because these things are private, no not so much private; but too special for ridicule. I feel God very strongly with all of who I am. No doubts. I respect other’s rights to their opinions, but don’t bother to respond much to taunts(okay, every once in awhile, I’m human). IWLN
IWLN: Although I am a non-believer, I do think that the human mind is predisposed to “believe”, if you will, in the supernatural due to our hardwired ability to look for cause and effect. Where no cause is obvious, the human mind fills in the blank with a supernatural explanation.
a.) no harm as long as the believer does not infringe on the rights of other or try to coerce others into believing the same.
b.) Only if the belief is empirically, demonstrably false (e.g. creationism) or if it’s a belief which is malicious or toxic in nature (racism, homophobia…). More generally, I have no wish to try to convince anybody that their God does not exist or that their faith is frivolous. It is often those attributes which I most like about a person.
c.) Again, it depends on the specific belief. I do not think that a person who believes in God is stupid. I do believe that a person who believes in Noah’s Ark is at least uninformed and possibly gullible. I think that people who believe in the supremacy of a particular race or that homosexuality is a “perversion” are idiots.
Big Bang. Evolution.
This has been answered by several others but I’ll join the chorus of those who are telling you you are uninformed on your assertions about fossils.
All of that joy and brightness exists in all other children. It can never be lost.
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It doesn’t matter…and it’s not a person.
I’m sure there are many atheists who wish that God were provable. I am not one of them. If I am in sorrow or pain I turn to other people. Humans are capable of tremendous goodness, even the most flawed humans.
I have not noticed that people of faith are any happier than people without faith. Many seem happy, many seem irritating. It’s the same with non-theists. I have noticed that some people of faith seem to exude a sort of forced cheerfulness as if they’re trying to convince themselves of something that they have some deep inner doubts about. I also think that the more authentic a person’s faith is the less irritating they seem to be and the less they feel the need to talk about it.
I think they feel the need to keep reassuring themselves of their own faith. There also seems to be an emotionalist quality to it. It’s a cheap way to feel good.
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Who says the universe is unexplainable. Much of it is still unexplained, that doesn’t mean it’s unexplainable.
Science is predicated on falsifiable theories. “God” makes no predictions and can’t be tested so it’s worthless as a scientific theory.
This is called the Teleological argument. A couple of the major rebuttals to it are that a) Nature contains many flaws and defects in its “design” and b). If beauty and perceived “design” necessitate a designer then who designed God? God is after all beautiful and perfect. If God does not require a designer then neither does the universe.
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I have never noticed that non-believers are more pessimistic. I find my happiness in the here and now. I have no wish for an afterlife.
John, Or it may just be the “supernatural” is filling in some of the blanks. I realize it sounds improbable with our current level of understanding. It fills me up, makes me grateful and makes life more special to me. I’m good with the effect and content to wait for more information on the cause. IWLN
What about polytheistic religions (such as Hinduism and Shinto)? Or non-theistic religions (like Buddhism)?
To claim that all religions worship the same god is a feel-good line tossed about by quite a few people, even though a cursory examination of world religions shows that this can not be the case for all religions. I suppose that you could attempt to claim that all monotheistic religions worship the same God, but even that is a fairly baseless assertion.
Nothing is too big to be coincidence. In some cases, the probability of an unusual explanation outweighs the probability of it being coincidence, but the possibility of it being coincidence is still there.
If you truly believe that you have experienced a miracle, then what does it matter if someone else ridicules it? Is your belief in this miracle so tenuous that an objective examination (and possible dismissal as coincidence) will shatter it?
I’m not trying to goad you into sharing more with us than you’re willing, it’s just that calling something “too special to ridicule” seems to me to be a way to avoid having others who disagree with your belief in God from attacking what appears to be the foundation of your belief.
If you examine ancient belief in the supernatural, you’ll see that almost every instance of something that once required a god or spirit, is now understood enough that the supernatural explanation is not needed.
Lightning? It’s Zeus hurling thunderbolts at the earth. Oh, wait, it’s just static electricity.
Earthquake? It’s Poseidon striking the ground with his trident. Oh, never mind, it’s just plate tectonics.
Human history is filled with then-unexplainable events being attributed to the supernatural, only to have someone eventually discover the actual cause. Based on that, it stands to reason that the things that many people currently attribute to the supernatural will also be discovered to operate by explainable means.
Not an atheist (yet?)but I’ll try to answer some of the questions.
What is the harm in believing in God (pick a God, any God) if it gives the believer comfort. Do you think it’s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham? Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth?
Believing in God per se is not harmful in itself for so long as you acknowledge that it’s merely belief. I believe in a God but acknowledge that there is no logical necessity for me to believe in a Supreme Being except for my need for meaning and purpose (Not that atheists can’t find those, I just haven’t got to that point yet). It is when believers try to abandon critical thinking to bolster their belief that it becomes harmful IMO. It’s this lack of critical thinking that this kind of position engenders that creates more harm than anything else.
Does an atheist ever wish God were true, provable?
Why not? Then I wouldn’t have to wonder the necessity of the existence of the material universe together with the suffering that it invariably brings.
When you’re in the depths of sorrow or pain, with no one to pray to or hold you up; what do you do?
I center myself through meditation.
I realize there are a lot of people out here hedging their bets and saying they believe in God and it has about the same meaning as I believe in eating right. For the people you’ve come across who truly do seem to believe, do you see any difference? More at peace? Happier? Or just more irritating?
No difference at all.
Do you ever look around at the beauty of nature, how complex even the function of our bodies are and think, how could this be some unplanned event?
Of course I wondered. Then I read up on evolution, and well, it made sense to me.
Joe, I went into this bigger, longer explanation of why I believe, but dumped it. What religion someone picks or was born into isn’t important. Religion really is kind of a fairy tale based on fact. It really is the elephant and the blind men. One creature, multiple descriptions(that one is so old, wish I could come up with a new one). How bout a dozen people look at a tree or a mountain. You’ll get 12 different descriptions. The same, but different. Naw, back to the elephant. Anyway, God is the fact of all religions. It’s what’s in your heart, how you treat other people, what you do during this life that matters. I know you think that this is the feel good party line. Sorry. For God to truly be God, he couldn’t be some vengeful, being, just dying to send you to hell.(sic) He’s kind, generous, loving, has a major sense of humor(I’m sure he knows you’re gagging on all this right now). Anyway, nobody ever talked anyone into believing in God so I’ll stop and let him get back to you on this.
Joe, My belief in God is not based on any miraculous or sort of miraculous events. My faith was strong, but the “events” always came at a time when my heart hurt or I was struggling in some other way. They were my gifts from God. I did share one of the smaller ones on another thread, I don’t know how to do the linking thing or whatever you call it. I believe it was on “The need to determine who gets into Heaven”. It was about my baby daughter’s explanation of life after death(she was about 17 or 18 months old). I didn’t share it to convince anyone of anything. It was in response to another post that made it seem right to bring it into the topic. As for sharing others, it’s only been a few hours since (on this thread) I was called a moron and a few other terms of endearment. I’m not overly sensitive, but I don’t store my special momentoes and other things of value in the trash can either. I’ll pass for now. Goad me another day. IWLN
That IS a great quote, jmonster. In that vein, I’d suggest to IWLN to really investigate some of the things you think are evidence for your beliefs. I suspect you’ll find quite a number (you make vague reference to a few in your first post) are outright false.
I sometimes say, when I’m angry or kidding or feeling uncharitable, that it implies those things. But I don’t really think it does. I know plenty of smart theists, and I know plenty who are good people. As far as the ‘harm’ goes- normally I wouldn’t call it harm. Is it harmful to be wrong? Sometimes it obviously is, but I don’t know if this is one of those times. It’s more a matter of how one uses belief than having it or not. Using your belief in god to absolve yourself of blame, responsibility, etc. is bad in my opinion. But that’s not something everyone does.
I probably have nothing to add here. “The Big Bang” is how I explain it. Evolution = Big Bang/Expansion = theism or atheism. They’re not connected at all. The only people who really association evolution with cosmology are creationists, to whom both theories are intrinsically threatening.
Like everyone else said, learn about evolution and you’ll find that your first comment is wrong. And unless you’re way out there in the deep end, your faith in god will probably not be affected by learning that evolution is real.
I’m too young to have kids, but I’m aware of the fact that everybody dies. That’s true whether there’s a god or not. It’s sad, sure, but that doesn’t amount to a hill of beans. There’s no “loss of potential.” Your life is your chance to use your potential, there’s nothing lost there. Despite your faith, IWLN, are you ever afraid to die? Self-preservation is a strong instinct, it’s sorta like your body knows it’s only got one go-around.
No. Not because “it doesn’t matter” in some nihilist sense, just because abortion is already what it is. Piling a soul onto it is unnecessary. It’s a tough and sad decision, period, and nobody who has one needs the extra guilt trip in my opinion.
That’s a survey question. But if it’s “Do you ever wish god were true, provable?” the answer is “No, not even the tiniest bit.” I gave up religion quite willingly and I’m glad there’s no god. I don’t wish god was real or true or provable or anything of the kind. I think it would pretty much negate our existence if there was one.
Attempt to deal with it. Usually that involves talking to my girlfriend and other close friends and taking a nap. I’m not overwhelmed often, but I’ve always got people to “hold me up” on the rare occasions I need it. That’s what love is for. I’m never in such a state of desperation or self-pity that I need a deity to intervene and help me out.
People are different from each other. I know people who believe in god who are miserable, and people who are happy, and pretty much anything in between. Ditto people who don’t believe in god. I’ve never met any atheists who come across the way really religious, Campus Crusade for Christ-type people do - I suppose ardent Socialists come close - but I find both groups utterly obnoxious. I avoid them and blow them off whenever possible, and I enjoy doing it. I’m just like that. I don’t think those people are more happy or at peace, though.
Yes, it’s pretty sickening. I think if you’re so dead certain you’ve got the answers to Life, the Universe and Everything, you’re bound (perhaps even honor-bound) to be a complete snotbag about it. See my comment about gleefully blowing such people off. They suck.
I don’t see the connection. The laws of time and space can get complicated, but they’re understandable. At some point, hopefully soon because I really want to see it, we’ll get those laws into one uniform theory.
As to the second part- why should anything have to be proven or rationalized? If you care about finding the truth, then those sorts of things are important. Rationality, verifiability, etc. If you think you already know The Ultimate Truth, they’re unnecessary. But that’s cheating, since you’re starting at the conclusion and working backward.
If you say “god doesn’t need to be rationalized,” I think you’re just asking for trouble. For one, because you throw the entire idea of rationality out the window. You can’t understand god, so you can do anything you damn want in his name - a problem we already have on Earth, in fact. You can’t really ever hope to understand anything, because even if you know all the laws of the universe, god could junk them tomorrow. Anything at all could be true, and evidence becomes a myth. The Earth could be 6,000 years old because god just created it out of the blue, and the fact that being reasonable tells us this is unlikely becomes irrelevant.
I quite enjoy it, actually. I think you’re assuming that atheists spend lots of time thinking about god. At least in my case, that’s not true. I think about god and similar subjects when religion comes up or when I’m annoyed at terrorists or some such thing. I don’t look at nature and think about god; there’s no reason I should. Anyhow, nothing I’ve ever seen in nature has given me reason to think it needed to be planned. I think the idea of someone planning nature completely mucks it up. It also mucks it up if you take the perspective that it’s just some illusory, irrelevant thing because Earth doesn’t matter and nothing physical really matters, only our souls do.
No, see comments in #8, people aren’t all alike. I think the idea of heaven as someplace people who believe certain ways and follow certain codes is pretty damn dull, even if you get it. Sounds like a country club where you need to belong to certain groups, have a certain income, etc. You know, like the US Congress.
Well, I’m just left with the impression that in the guise of asking for an honest debate, the OP is just looking to try to force people who disagree with him onto the defensive, which he can then use in claiming “I don’t understand the animosity.”
Well, in order to help you to understand it, I’d like to point out:
[ul][li]Many of your original twelve points contained hints that you thought atheism was illogical. This wouldn’t go unnoticed if you’d started a thread about Judaism, Christianity or Islam. Why would it slide with atheists?[/li][li]You use the word “grudge” on occasion, which I take to mean you think some atheists have a personal beef with God. Trouble is, the idea is contradictory. An atheist, by definition, wouldn’t accept the existance of a God, let along waste time getting mad at Him.[/ul][/li]
Besides your “Waaaah. Boy you really hurt my feelings” is the weakest possible form of sarcasm. If you can’t use sarcasm any better than that, I suggest you stop trying, and that goes for discussing evolution or physics, too.
The animosity you’re detecting is in direct response to your own.
IWLN, I’m not going to answer your questions, as everyone before me has said pretty much exactly what I would say, only better (esp. Diogenes).
I am, however, intrigued as to how you are finding the information you’ve been given - has it given you any more insight into our point of view? Clearly it’s not going to have any effect your faith, but since you’ve said you “don’t know what [we] believe or why”, I’d love to know if you feel more enlightened about atheism, or whether you now feel even more sorry for us.
I don’t think those people are more happy or at peace, though.