Dear Atheists, Questions From A "believer"

Great Debates
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I also think that IWLN deserves some thanks here, given that he(?) has made a genuine and earnest request for a different point of view that he will subsequently consider fully. Sometimes we need such a broad and overarching OP to bring everyone out onto the veranda, I feel.

Regarding your more scientific questions, IWLN, the concept you describe is the God of the Gaps: Ever more phenomena are explained by natural means, with no supernatural element required, leaving God to merely cause the occasional unexplained event in the long chain from Big Bang to Human Thought.

If you spend time on the threads and links others have provided here, you will find that there are almost no genuine gaps left. Some gaps, such as the precise nature of both ends of our universe or human consciousness, are spanned by tenuous rope bridges which may not stand the test of time. Others, like the evolution of species and the age of the universe, are connected by enormous, sturdy suspension bridges of certainty beyond reasonable doubt.

The enlightened theists around here generally accept this, ie. that the universe and everything in it has a natural explanation, yet still believe that God can be experienced directly. In time, you will learn which members and threads are worth investing time in and which you will get little out of.

Welcome, anyway.

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jjimm, I am getting ready to post the questions with some observations and answers to some questions or mis-interpretations of what I was asking. Do feel like I have some information I didn’t have before and really appreciate the input. I never felt sorry for you aka atheists. If my belief in God is true (and I’m sure it is), then it applies to all people. Those of you who are just getting ready to type up a "leave me out of your fairytale"post, you can skip it. I’ll just consider it already said. As a group, you definitely don’t lack in intelligence. I have used my dictionary more in the last few days than in years. Now I have to go look up that darn occam razor thing. Never heard of it, not in my dictionary. Thanks for asking. IWLN

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It is all important.

And what are those facts???
I sure as hell never heard of any real facts supporting religion.
Please share them [bIWLN**.
Failure to come up with actual facts will, of course, leave you with:
“Religion is kind of a fairy tale.”

No, that analogy should run:
“12 people are standing around imagining what a mountain would look like if there were a mountain.”

And, surprise, you would indeed get 12 different answers.

Really?

Where is your God in the religion that says you should rip out the beating hart of an enemy and eat it?

Where is your God in the religion that says that in order to prevent earthquakes, you must sacrifice a virgin?

Where is your God in the religion that says you must take drugs and heed the advice of the totem that then appears to you?

Need I go on?
There is no common denominator that bases all religions in fact.
Except that humans like to have answers and will (quite creatively) invent them when they are absent.

And, pray tell, where you got this, highly personal view, of what God is like? Hardly supported by any religion I know of.

You are forgetting the most effective conversion talk ever:
" Start worshipping Christ or I’ll chop your head off"

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FYI: info on Occam’s Razor.

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Bryan, This OP is a she and I am not subtle enough to go that route. If I would have wanted a rip roaring debate, it would have been a simple thing. This site is called Great Debates and from previous reading, there is no shortage of people who will tell it like it is. My twelve questions were worded as carefully as I could. I believe in God, so does atheism seem logical to me? Probably not. You don’t think a belief in God is logical. That wasn’t where I was going. It is impossible to debate God. Most of my questions had more to do with just how you feel on different issues. Trying to get an idea if general life topics feel the same to you. I’ve said this before I believe, but the main reason I used the word grudge had to do with another thread and mf type name calling of God. I suspect it’s more for shock value, but didn’t think it would be a big deal to ask. I will go find the thread tomorrow and let you know where it is, because a couple of atheist’s definitely wasted their time either getting mad or just playing shock the believer.

I realize my sarcasm is a little weak. I have a set of values that inhibit me from performing at my full capacity. I have felt very little animosity on this thread, other than you and Godless Skeptic. The rest were mostly helpful. Some were a little exasperated(sp?) with what I’m sure were questions that have been asked many times. I don’t blame them. Stop trying to stir the pot. I’m not going to fight. And please don’t read my answers to the answers when I post it. Be happy. IWLN

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Thanks jjimm.

Latro, I’ll respond later. Have to go make sure that every other line of my post that you responded to wasn’t deleted.:confused: and it’s 4:00a.m. here. Sleep time.

SentientMeat, Thanks to you to. A couple of your posts didn’t make much sense to me and little by little some of those gaps have been filled. I’m being serious. I really do read alot. Guess I need to pick better books. Thanks again.

El_Kabong, Yes, some surprises. About to post comments to answers to questions. Then going to run waving a white flag. My name just came from another website I’ve been to. I have a chronic illness that isn’t life-threatening, but sure does get in the way. IWLN stands for Iwannalifenow. Just kind of symbolic of my failure to have patience. :frowning:

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Thanks all who responded to my questions. Most of the answers were really very nice and helpful. I was absolutely not trying to stereotype any belief or group of people. Only really ticked off a few people, annoyed some more, but if you don‘t ask, you can‘t learn (Sorry I called you a dipshit Musicat).J Not all the questions reflected my views necessarily. Was trying to be careful not to provoke and get an idea of how other people think too. My daughter asked me if morals were generally the same for a believer and non-believer. My answer was yes. Morals aren’t influenced by fear of punishment or our jails wouldn’t be so full. It did make me wonder if choices and other basic beliefs were any different. My dictionary defined atheism using the word godlessness and wickedness. Didn’t seem fair since they hadn’t even met you. Some of you asked some questions back, so if I didn’t answer something you still want to know, let me know. Don’t read it if you don’t want to, but I promise no quotes from the Bible.

  1. What is the harm in believing in God (pick a God, any God) if it gives the believer comfort. Do you think it’s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham? Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth?

I think the biggest reason I asked this question is I believe we should make every effort not to harm or hurt each other. I don’t deny it does seem to be a crutch for some people, but don’t see the need to kick their crutch out from under them. War in the name of “religion” is just an excuse. Saying God has directed you to kill sounds as crazy today as it did when the Bible was written. Telling someone they’re going to hell is not only evil, it implies that you have some sort of say so. As a Christian (and I admit to using the term loosely, because I don’t believe “quite traditionally”) I do share my beliefs if it’s appropriate at that time. I don’t condemn theirs though and I don’t think it’s my duty to try and badger someone into my beliefs. I cannot “prove” my faith in God, although I feel it has been proven to me, so a big debate is pointless. I am the seed planter and it’s up to God to make it grow. (okay no flack for that one, even I had the irreverent thought that God was the manure. Good thing he has a sense of humor). I do believe if you were raised from birth with a certain religion and you haven’t done your own searching and thinking, growth is limited.
2. How do you explain, not just the origin of man, but the origin of all. What was before that. I realize you don’t have the answer to that and you only really believe what is proved, so I guess I’m asking for your best guess scenario. You can give me the short version.

Typical answer was who knows, big bang, expanding universe, evolution. I don’t believe that science and God are incompatible. I don’t really need to know, but have always been excited by the thought that there are other worlds, dimensions, new discoveries to make. So much of the literature on it is frankly beyond my understanding. One answer always creates more questions, so unfortunately much of my information comes off things like the Discovery channels who simplify it to my midget science level.

  1. If you’ve brought up evolution at all in the previous sentence, when you got to the origin of man part, how is it explained that there are no true remains of mixed species (part way through some transition), or are there? I don’t think evolution as I know of it disproves or proves a creator, but I’m sure my information on it has had a religious slant.

I was told many times to read up on evolution, which I have some. Did you notice I said “or are there.“ Wasn’t sure if there were or weren’t. Last I’d heard there weren’t, but admitted to possible biased info. But you’ve got to know where to read (was directed to some sites, thanks), because there are still many different “opinions” out there. Not necessarily that it doesn’t exist, but interpretations of what it signifies. I never believed the Bible version of creation to be a literal one. Picture someone who doesn’t know the world is round or what even electricity is trying to be your scientific interpreter or even just a logical storyteller.

  1. When you look into your children’s eyes, does it ever cross your mind that they’re just going to be dust in a few decades. Does all of that lost brightness, joy, potential, just gone, seem sad or just matter of fact or doesn’t it cross your mind?

If I were to draw a conclusion from your answers on this, I would say that most atheists don’t have children. Know this isn’t true, but having children probably makes a lot less time to answer a dozen questions. Death is sad and awful to any or no religious persuasion. I do find comfort in the thought of everyone I love continuing on in a better place, but that’s not why I believe, just one of the benefits. I want them to be here with me now though, just like anyone would. Believing in an after-life doesn’t mean that I don’t enjoy this one in the fullest capacity I can. I’m not “waiting” for the next life. I’m living, just like any of you. (that was in response to a question/comment).

  1. Not really going to go here, just barely. Doesn’t there being no life after this one make abortion even more horrible, since this little person’s one chance for life is being snuffed. Or does it matter?

This question had more to do with wondering if an atheist was more or less likely to hesitate before taking this step. Did no afterlife mean don’t take away their one shot at life or did it mean doesn’t really matter or? It’s impossible for me to think objectively. I don’t think anyone should be forced to be “baby breeders”, but I thought science and medicine had pretty much taken care of that well into the 90th percentile. I really don’t have a judgment on the action (not my right), but think of it as a loss. Held my friend’s hand through one. I can understand a reason, I don’t have to agree with it. Don’t think I’m wrong for asking for an opinion or having one either. Did call it by a politically incorrect name apparently. Sorry. Someone asked and yes I do feel better about abortion since I believe life is eternal.

  1. Does an atheist ever wish God were true, provable?

I was honestly surprised at some of the answers to this question. I have always been excited by the thought of new discoveries, new physical rules, new dimensions, new science. I do understand those who qualified their answer with a God without the hellfire, vengeance aspect. I don’t understand why someone wouldn’t want to keep going. Keep experiencing. Marley, no I don’t think I’m afraid to die. Kind of sad to leave my family. A little nervous about going on trips by myself. And I don’t picture heaven as a place where people “believe certain ways” , I’m kind of hoping for knowledge. See if I can come back and solve a few of those unexplained universe questions just for fun. Someone else asked if I thought we take our memories with us. I hope we do at least in part, but I don’t have a clue. Maybe that’s why no one comes back, no roadmap.

  1. When you’re in the depths of sorrow or pain, with no one to pray to or hold you up; what do you do?

I mainly asked this question because the first professed atheist I ever met (have only known 2) was going through a big crisis. I brought up God/prayer. She told me she didn’t believe in it and I remember just being shocked. I was a little naïve. Anyway she said she usually ate, drank and cried her way through. I helped her drink and cry. What are friends for? I have a wonderful family, but God does come in handy for the big stuff.

  1. I realize there are a lot of people out here hedging their bets and saying they believe in God and it has about the same meaning as I believe in eating right. For the people you’ve come across who truly do seem to believe, do you see any difference? More at peace? Happier? Or just more irritating?

I would have to agree with most of the answers.
9. Have you ever understood why a lot of “believers” talk so weird (almost a Christian version of baby talk) when they’re discussing religion. Okay, I threw that one in for me. Irritates the hell out of me when someone takes on that weird “do you know Jesus” voice. I’ve always wondered why they do it, when it is so likely to clear a room in under a minute.

Maybe it’s a Northwest thing?
10. When I’ve heard so many universe theories and explanations about time, space and everything having different rules than we understand; why when we say you can’t really apply man’s laws of nature to God does it seem to irritate the non-believer. When so much about the universe is unexplainable, why do you think God should have to be proven or rationalized?

I was corrected on this one many times. Not unexplainable, just not yet explained. I could say the same about God. Unexplained is still unknown.

  1. Do you ever look around at the beauty of nature, how complex even the function of our bodies are and think, how could this be some unplanned event?

That question brought a lot of negative response (I.E. reference to illness, etc.) I didn’t say it was perfect. I unfortunately know it’s not. I just wondered if anyone felt the same sense of awe at all the beauty and diversity. I am amazed at a lot of things. Maybe I don’t get out enough.J
12. Do you think non-believers tend to be more pessimistic? Don’t get your panties into a bundle over that one. I just mean since I believe I have something really awesome to look forward to; I have some of that I get to go to Disneyland feeling. Ceasing to exist just doesn’t have the same ring to it?

Okay, I knew I was going to get bitten on the butt for that Disneyland thing. Ouch. I should have just referred to it as a sense of happy anticipation. I really don’t care for Disneyland either. I like my outdoors without asphalt.

Thanks again. IWLN

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OK, it’s 1: 30 PM here, sorry my post seems somewhat snappy, I’m at work.

Good night and happy dreams.

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Even though I agree with most of what has been said, I’m going to try to not echo what everybody else has said

Until about 2 years ago I was a Christian, and until a little after that a Creationist.

2.) I don’t know about the origin af all. Thats why I’m agnostic instead of an athiest. It sometimes amazes me that people will talk authoritatively about what happened before the big bang (“nothing”), but will admit that they can’t know what it’s like inside a black hole. Perhaps a god or gods caused the big bang, but if god exists, he/she/it/they are certainly nothing like the god portrayed in the Bible.

3.) I’m sure that your information has had a religious slant. I used to be where you are now. I thought I had all the answers, but I only read Creationist web sites. Look at things from the other side (talkorigins.org has already been suggested), and if you and Creation are right, then, after examining all of the evidence, you will still believe in Creation. The only reason for you to NOT examine opposing viewpoints is if, deep down, you think that you may be wrong.

4.) When you look into your pet’s eyes, does it ever… ? (Or do you believe in doggy heaven?)

5.) Doesn’t there being no life after this one make every period* that you get even more horrible, since this little person’s one chance for life is being snuffed. Don’t you think that you should try to stay pregnant so that a loss of life is minimized?

  • I apologize if my assumption that you are a woman is incorrect.

[As a side note, I have a question for you regarding abortion and Christianity. Look for it in another thread]

7.) “When you fall down and you don’t have your crutch to lean on, what do you do?”

[OK, that last response was probably kind of mean, but the sum of your questions seems to amount to “Life must be hard without the crutch that I’ve got.”]

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I think you started this thread because you genuinely want to understand our point of view, so I expect that you might use this information to analyze your own beliefs. This quote stood out to me, in your latest post. You must be reading a different Bible than the one I have. You should take a little time and actually read the first four or five books of the Bible. They’re full of widespread slaughter of men, women, and childred, all directed and enabled by the big guy himself.

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blowero, I hadn’t read the second page (including your post), before I wrote my response. I’ll try to read that thread.

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ILWN-- atheist here, checking in late…although I’ve followed along in this thread as it developed.

Let me see if I can address what I’m interpreting as the underlying purpose for your original post. As I see it, you wanted more of a glimpse into how an atheist would view certain life events, given their lack of belief in a god or gods… the belief in which fundamentally affects YOUR view on those same life events. I don’t think you really wanted to exchange fire over the specifics of the theism vs. atheism debate, such as the fossil record or contradictory bible verses… in other words, at a “micro” level. You were looking more for an atheist’s view of the world to see how it compared to your own, given the fundamentally different lenses through we both are looking at it.

I think that you will find, as you come to see who atheists “really are”, you’ll see that we are… everyone. We run the gamut, just as any arbitrarily drawn up group would… including Christians. There are extremes at both ends with a more moderate group in the middle. If I may hazard a guess, I’d venture that the fact that the definition of atheist in the dictionary you’re using (hopefully, USED to use) contained the word “wickedness” in its description has colored your perception of what “we” are like. That isn’t a dictionary, it’s biased propaganda. To your credit, you seem willing to question the validity of such source materials and seek your own answers, which is a step many theists take only very reluctantly.

You’ve already been given some answers/links/opinions regarding things like transitional fossils and the like, the “micro” stuff, which I encourage you to explore with an open mind. I won’t bother going into those for now.

Regarding my life outlook, given the lack of belief in gods:

It doesn’t diminish in any way my wonderment or enjoyment of the world, and all of its diversity. In fact, I would say that that wonderment is increased by my belief that it occurred naturally, along an utterly unpredictable and random path… and shaped by countless turning points along a “road” billions of years long.

The birth of my children (yes-- you can be an atheist and still have kids; I checked first :wink: ) wasn’t the kind of “Aha!” moment that “proved there must be a God” that I’ve heard theists infer… although at the same time it was the most overwhelming life experience I’ve been through to date. Even without a god to “attribute” the new life to, it remained the most powerful event I’ve ever been through. Most parents say, that, though… on either side of the “god” fence.

Abortion? I regret the circumstances that lead to most of them being performed, and wish there were a LOT fewer of them. So, even WITHOUT the additonal religious baggage I bring to this viewpoint, I still regret the numbers of them being performed, especially as a “convenience” or birth control. Still, I remain pro-choice. You might think, “Well, sure, you’re an atheist-- you WOULD be”, but that wouldn’t capture the regret that I have regarding the numbers of them performed. I’d love to see a way to drastically cut down on their numbers (short of a legal ban), but not because “Abortion is Murder” or “God isn’t Pro-Choice” or any of the other soundbites I see on the little streetside “message board” of the church I drive past twice a day.

Regarding “tough times” and how to get through them if you don’t have a God to pray to… the answer has been given many times. Friends and family are a wonderful support group-- and I don’t mean to be insulting by pointing out that they really exist. In other words, you KNOW you can go to them, and get tangible assistance. A prayer might bring some benefit mentally, in that it helps to “speak” the problem, but I would hope most theists would acknowledge that prayer alone isn’t going to really solve ANY problem in the real world. You can pray for a job, but ya better be sending out resumes while you do it.

I’ll answer your 12 bullet points if you want yet another take, but, again, I think you’re just looking for an insight into how an atheist sees the “same” world you do while refuting that a god-- any god-- had anything whatsoever to do with it. Feel free to ask anything more specific if you want. Lastly, I’d like to commend you on the civility you’ve brought to the discussion. For the most part, it appears to have been reciprocated, which isn’t a coincidence. :slight_smile:

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That you say this indicates that you (like most people) are more moral than God is, at least the original god of the Bible. God takes on the characteristics of the authors of the holy books. Fiercely nationalistic, warlike nations write fiercely nationalistic, warlike Bibles. More peaceful peoples write more peaceful Bibles.

Sorry to hear you are sick. One good thing about being an atheist is that you never have to worry if being sick is because of something you did.

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IWLN, for someone who’s only known 2 atheists, you seem to have an awful lot of preconceived notions about us. You’re conclusion that “most atheists don’t have children” made me chuckle. This is funny, too:

You must have a really old dictionary.:smiley:

I’ve been noticing your reaction to some of the more caustic responses you got; and you honestly don’t seem to be aware of how you came across in the OP. It really came off as haughty; I think we all got the sense that you feel superior because of your religion. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you didn’t mean to come across that way, but the fact is, you did.

I think what you might focus on is the fact that most of us still tried to give honest and serious answers to your question, even in spite of your condescending tone. (For my part, I tried not to be too snippy, although the temptation was perhaps too hard to resist.) Rather than feeling put off by the few sarcastic replies you got, you ought to be amazed that you got any serious answers at all. I think that’s a testament to the good nature of many of the atheists who frequent this forum.

I daresay I could easily coax some venemous replies out of the theists here on the boards, were I to post a list of “questions” that are merely thinly-veiled taunts about how I think I’m better than they are (witness the thread directed at Polycarp in the BBQ Pit). But were I to do that, I would have noone to blame but myself. It wouldn’t prove anything about their character.

I’ll give you points for trying to be conciliatory, and we all certainly appreciate that. But I think you have a lot of prejudices to overcome, and if you honestly want to learn about what other people believe, you need to open your ears a little more, and close your mouth a little more. Sorry to be harsh, but I think it needed to be said.

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Listen, if it is easier for you to write off someone’s POV as being born of unwarranted hostility then so be it.Go back and read what you wrote in your OP.Replace every instance of “atheist/atheism” with christian/christianity(or whatever) in that post adn then direct those same questions at THAT group of people and tell me how innocent and harmless the post sounds then.
I am not a hostile person by any stretch of the imagination.I do not like fighting or arguing.I do not like name calling or insulting.I have been the victim of such behavior from theists countless times and I am hard pressed to recall the last time someone posted something as blatantly offensive and disrespectful as what you posted.
You did NOT post “honest inquiries” about atheism.You posted a series of implications, mischaracterizations and strawmen.

Your “questions” were along the lines of “Have you stopped beating your wife since becoming an atheist or do you just absue your children now?”.Loaded questions rife with false dichotomy.

You owe US a HUGE apology and if you are too petty to take responsibility for your actions then fine, have a nice life(the only one you get ;)).

If however, you want to act like an adult adn join the rest of teh group to discuss these issues(and maybe learn a thing or two about atheism, religion, theism, science etc.) then I would be more than happy to welcome you aboard.

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So you’ve hung out at the boards for all of a few weeks, eh? Have you searched Cecil’s Archives also? Here are some selected excerpts on the subject:

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbigbangmyth.html

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mevolutionreply.html

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mevolution.html

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mmicromacroev.html

Any book by Richard Dawkins or Stephen Jay Gould – authors mentioned frequently by others – IWLN, how you coming on reading these?

How much research have you done at http://talkorigins.org ? They have a searchable archive, too.

Go to the SDMB search page, put “creation AND evolution” in the search string box, select Great Debates Forum, and look for threads 6 months old and newer. You should find a few dozen candidates, some quite long debates. Have you read all of these? THAT’s what I mean by research!

This is called the argument from personal incredulity. It is often used by creationists – “It seems fantastic, I don’t understand, so it must be supernatural.” Some of this incredulity disappears with education and scientific inquiry.

And evolution is not an “unplanned event;” it is a guided process where the beneficial is retained & passed on while the rest is discarded. Not unlike what a god might do while working out the kinks in a creation.

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I think that’s quite false. In some circumstances, people decide that fear of punishment takes second place to possible rewards. Sometimes they get caught. And I wouldn’t be so quick to assume that everyone who’s in jail is immoral. I think the government of this country has passed its share of immoral laws.

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I apologize for lumping posts together. My computer loves to watch me really think through a post and then snatch it away during the last step.

Musicat, No I haven’t done a life’s research on evolution. I did spend a couple of hours on talkorigins and found it really fascinating. That wasn’t even remotely the point of that question. I did confess ignorance and knew I had received my previous info with a “religious slant” to it. I wanted to hear how other people felt about the topic. Was it their proof of no God, etc? I feel no shame at reading Danielle Steel instead of Dawkins. Again, it wasn’t an either evolution or God, pick one; to me. Wondered if that was vital key that convinced anyone. As for #11, I am guilty of personal incredulity. You do have me there. It didn’t form my core beliefs. I honestly think I would still be in awe of this whole universe, God or no God. Answers to mundane things like where do the clouds come from did not hinder my delight in them. Unplanned event or guided process or even a god working out the kinks. My real question was did you still feel the amazement of the whole process? Poorly worded I guess. Sorry.

Godless Skeptic, I didn’t just write off Bryan’s post as unwarranted hostility. His opinion was that my questions were just a sneaky way (guise) to stir up trouble, play the victim when I receive abuse and then point fingers at the bad atheist. He wasn’t hearing me. Why go there? You found my questions blatantly offensive and disrespectful. Many other people said just the opposite. I sincerely was and will continue to not try and make this some sort of contest. I was being as careful and sincere as I knew how to be with my questions. I respect everyone’s right to their belief. I even respect your right to believe my motives were what you think they are. Doesn’t do any good to tell you that you are wrong about where I was coming from. Different people hear what they hear. You can’t know how many times I went over those questions to see if someone could take them wrong. Turned the questions around as you recommended. I can’t see the offensive or disrespectful tone either way, ignorance or naivety maybe. If you knew me, you would know I am typically bluntly honest and the only outright lies I can ever remember telling were to spare someone’s feelings. I cannot apologize for a motive I didn’t have. Calling me petty if I don’t take responsibility for my actions, which you mis-interpret is truly the “still beating your wife”. I don’t know what a strawman is, by the way. I can freely say that I’m sorry I offended you, even if you don’t believe that it was not my intent. So GS, this moron apologizes for what I have said to offend you. IWLN

Blowero, I would have to say I hadn’t given atheism much thought until recently. Then when I did think about it, I was clueless. You do know I was kidding about the most atheists not having children? Many posters didn’t and I have a weird sense of humor at times. Gets me into trouble. I looked, my dictionary was published in 1975. Time for an update. I am sorry if you think I came across as haughty or superior. As far as superior, in my beliefs, I don’t think I am more valued than anyone else. As far as haughty, I was going to say I don’t have a haughty bone in my body, but that’s not true. I have one and it comes out during name calling. I do have a strong upbringing of expecting and giving respect and so the human side of me comes out. The snippy does try to come out and play when I feel that sense of unfair appraisal. And I stated before, I am amazed at the niceness and patience of the majority of the people here. I actually have heard more venom, superiority and smugness in the theist arena. “Organized religion” has never been all that it should be. I knew the risk of entering this territory. I did have to open my mouth to ask the questions, but I am listening. Hey, if someone asks me something, am I allowed to answer? J Thanks for your input. IWLN

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VOYAGER, I still do believe the Bible contains some useful information, but like you said, the writers each put their own spin on it. I’ve read some kind of behind the scenes stuff on the Bible and there was apparently some competition and even taking each others writings. Not worried about being sick because of something I did. Do wonder if the fact that I’m not well yet means there’s more I need to learn(i.e. patience or some other darn thing).

AMMO52, Thanks, I really am coming from there. The birth of my children looking back(way back) wasn’t all that “powerful” to me. Raising them was incredible. I don’t think I ever had the “big AHA” that proved to me there was a GOD. He did kind of sneak up on me gradually. It was more like the hair standing up on the back of your neck, someone’s in the room with me feeling, persistently; until I figured out someone was with me. I have had some other types of AHA’s later that were real ground tremblers though. I am looking for a job. Resumes huh… ;)Thanks for your input. IWLN

Marley, Guilty of unqualified generalization. Do realize everyone in jail is not immoral and every out is not moral. My daughter is a lawyer and she would be the first to say many laws are flawed. IWLN

100

Well, I did say it made me chuckle, but to be honest, I didn’t know you were joking. Rather an odd joke…

Hmmm…I don’t think you actually got my point. This isn’t about me being personally offended; I was just hoping that you might take a look at how you are coming across, and rather than get defensive when a few people reacted to you with hostility, maybe seriously consider what it was in your attitude that led to those reactions. But maybe you’re not willing to do that…

Don’t be obtuse; I think you knew what I meant.