Dear Atheists, Questions From A "believer"

[IWLN]

*Originally posted by Priceguy *

You look at each event in turn. You examine the possible explanations and determine which is most likely, and go with that.

So if you’re looking at God with total reason and logic, well you’re looking at something that can’t be seen that way. It’s like trying to see the stars with your magnifying glass. Wrong tool.

But that doesn’t really have any bearing on the facts of the matter, right? If I think the world is a better place if 1+1=3, that doesn’t change the fact that 1+1=2.

It isn’t about the world being a better place or I’m some needy soul who needs something bigger than myself. Do you accept the possible idea that somewhere in the universe 1+1=2 doesn’t even remotely exist as an applicable equation?

What is “good”? What is “evil”? How can you tell them apart? Do you, who claim that rational thought is subjective, really believe that “good” and “evil” objectively exist?

So are you saying they are abstracts because they’re subjective? I’m sorry to be so dense on that one. Is it because on their own, without descriptions or scenarios, they don’t have meaning?

A person holding an irrational belief suspends reason for the purpose of that belief, which makes the person irrational at least when it comes to that belief. One can see this principle at work in quite a few scientists. Brilliant critical rational minds… that also embrace a particular religion. I don’t get it.

So how does a scientist explain his belief in God, or do they?

I don’t get it either. Those people still exist.

Low self-esteem? Guilt?

Whoops, bad writing on my part. Sorry. The last “they” was supposed to refer back to the zealous Christians that Julien despises. I only mentioned you because I suspect you are one of the people who do not believe that, say, a native American who never heard of Christ and thus wasn’t given the chance to believe in God is going to Hell. If I’m wrong you’re welcome to correct me.

No you’re not wrong. If I thought the native American or the atheist or other religions were going to hell, just for a lack of belief, I would have a tough time being content in this life. No, I wasn’t insulted, I was just poking you a little. When I was compared to Lekatt(?) a while back, I wondered who should be the most insulted, not being familiar with that person. Then when in my perception, I was held up as the bad example, I just had to be amused by it. IWLN

[IWLN]

Blowero - Go back and watch TV for a while. I’m thinking. Hard process sometimes.

[IWLN]

*Originally posted by blowero *
I have to say I find it a little unfair that you keep bringing up as your trump card this experience you had that you refuse to share with us.

This isn’t some sort of contest in which there’s a winner and a loser. I’m not playing, “I know something you don’t know”. My point was, what I know would have no value for you, but was impossible for me to discount. For really the first time here I am kind of feeling pissed off.(can I say that here?) So I will apologize for being rude, later when I feel sincerely remorseful.

As I said before, if God communicated with me in an unambigous way, it’s possible I would consider that experience.

You wouldn’t have any choice about considering that experience. I really don’t think you get that part. That would be the day you felt time stop and then start up again, only differently. The only choice you would have is what to attribute it to. Enter OR, which is really little more than a multiple choice question in which you pick the simplest or most verifiable answer. That was the only point I was trying to make. My answer may very well be the truth. If the truth isn’t backed up with valid evidence, public domain evidence; it doesn’t make it false. It just makes it my own truth.

But I suspect that this “experience” you had is nothing of the sort. You already admitted that it would not be convincing if you shared it with us, so I can only assume you are exaggerating its import. But what several of us are saying is that you don’t actually have any evidence. We have been able to refute every piece of evidence you have offered, and merely refusing to divulge a piece of “evidence” doesn’t make it valid.

Well since on day one I told you I could not prove God’s existence, I’m interested to know what sort of evidence you think I provided for you. Let’s see, the world is beautiful and complex, good things happen, I feel gratitude, I feel God’s presence, my toddler explained life after death. Are those the things that didn’t hold up under your vigilant scrutiny. I probably left a few out, but none of these things convinced me of God’s existence. It would be pretty stupid of me to think they would convince you, when they weren’t even objective enough for me. Doesn’t mean they don’t have an impact, just means they weren’t responsible for how I believe.

So while I was fuming and deciding whether or not to even answer you, I went on a little web search. I read about other peoples “miracles”. Saw the messiah in a cloud (I thought it looked like Mr. PotatoHead), read stories about people who saw all kinds of things “like a picture in their mind”, etc. I had never looked to see what anyone else was saying because it has nothing to do with me, I didn’t need validation and I don’t know if any of their stories are true or not. What I do know is that I instinctively dis-believed them, right off the bat. I see pictures in my mind too, but I call them fantasies. So anyway, I have no right to tell them that I know they’re wrong, don’t know for sure if they are, but do allow myself an opinion or two. Since I have had a unexplainable event, I should be first in line to yell hallelujah and believe them, but I’m not there. Which further affirmed what I already felt, that it is pointless to tell you something that I would have a tough time believing from anyone else.

So, in spite of that, I’m going to explain this to the best of my ability. Your ability to understand is not my problem. I will even provide you with a link that can actually explain everything I experienced and still allow you not to believe in God. I think I’ll call it bite me

But do you really feel a presence? Isn’t what you really feel simply a belief or emotion? What exactly does “feeling a presence” mean, anyway? .

Occasionally, sometimes in church and sometimes out of the blue. It is a physical and emotional feeling, impossible to explain to anyone who hasn’t felt it. Here goes weird. It is an all over sensation of the chills or maybe like an mild electrical current and a feeling of being filled, full. Kind of like music can make you feel, only much more. I have this “oh good, you’re here” feeling/thought and it feels like my awareness of everything around me is heightened. This can of course all be explained away with the link I gave you or even to emotions. I am very strong emotionally and would have a tough time believing that I somehow manufactured this out of need. “Feeling a presence” happens fairly regularly, unlike the other “event”.

Did you physically touch God? Can you describe the texture of God? What did God look like? Can you draw a picture of God? What did He feel like? Can you photograph God?

Okay, let me get my smart ass answers out of the way first. God’s texture, tastes like chicken.(sorry, I’ve just never thought about asking what the texture of anything was unless I was eating it.) Can you photograph God? - Damn, why didn’t I think of that, oh to be a Japanese tourist with a camera continually on my neck. I can’t draw a picture of anything, but would have had a hard time telling him to hold it right there, while I get my sketch pad. Okay, I’m done. I feel better. Maybe I can stop being rude now. I am not a religious fanatic and I’ve never put what happened into words before. It sounds lame.

“I have just stood up and started to walk out of the room. Suddenly there is someone standing about three feet in front of me. Catches me off guard because I’m home alone. I remember the sound of the air-conditioner and the dog barking, just stopped. Everything was pure silence. He was about my height 5’8” and was wearing a cream colored robe of some kind. His hair was brown, he was slender and his eyes were dark. When I looked at his eyes, everything ground to a halt. I remember asking myself if this was Jesus. Then knowing yes he was, but he was God, which doesn’t particularly make sense. He looked real, but not exactly solid. He held my gaze for a what seemed like a long time and then reached out with his left hand and touched my cheek. His hand felt really warm. I was instantly flooded with this love feeling that is too big to describe, coming from God. A moment later it turned to pure sorrow like I have never felt, deep, painful, awful, huge. I had no awareness of my surroundings until I felt almost like I was slammed back in place and slowly I started becoming aware of the noises around me again and I was alone. The reason for feeling the love was obvious, but I realized somehow that the deep horrible sorrow was God feeling what we are here. He was feeling everybody’s pain. I was in a complete state of shock for hours and then cried for days."

Again, I’m not trying to make fun of you or suggest that your beliefs are trivial; I’m just trying to get you to see it from another point of view. If you are claiming direct communication from God, you should be able to describe the form this communication took. I have never heard a satisfactory answer to these questions. It may be that you are the one out of a billion believers who actually does have a satisfactory answer, but then it raises the question of why God only chose to impart this information to you and not the other billion.

Ah, then the question of why God only chose to impart this information to me. Well to start with, I doubt I’m the only one. Also, it wasn’t some sort of informational visit. I did not doubt God’s existence before this happened. I certainly didn’t deserve a one on one. I can sin with the best of 'em. It felt like a gift. Even though I was really shocked, it all seemed almost matter of fact at the same time. It did not make me suddenly a different person or make it any easier to always do the right things. It took me almost ten years to tell even one person about it. Okay, I’m done being ticked off. I’m sorry for being snotty. Not sorry enough to change this post, but almost. IWLN

[ammo52]

Geez, IWLN, thanks for sharing that experience with us.

I’m sure you really didn’t want to, but felt almost like this debate had stalled out without your presenting some more tangible “evidence” of why you felt the way you did. I’m sorry if you felt “goaded” into doing it; and if so I hope you understand that all any of us wanted was an insight into why you would, for instance, “refuse” to apply Occam’s Razor or any other logical tool in the same way as we would.

Given your experience, which I can’t explain, I can at least now see why, for you, God’s existence isn’t an “unneccessary plurality” and why an attempt on our part to declare god-belief “irrational” is met with a polite, but stiff, resistance. Were I in your shoes, I guess my responses to posts in this thread, including mine, would also be along the lines of “well, you’re certainly being logical, and thanks for sharing, but… I know what I know.”

Honestly, up until your last post, I had formed an opinion of you as being, if you’ll forgive the non-intended insult, almost “too sensible” to believe in God. All I mean by that is that, in contrast to many theists, you seemed perfectly willing to view a lot of biblical accounts as allegorical rather than literal, accept the evidence that animals (even man) evolved over millions of years, and similar examples in which you break from “official church doctrine” and show a willingness to fold knowledge borne from the scientific method into your understanding of god, rather than reject anything that didn’t “fit” the version derived purely from scripture. You seem to believe, as I do, that religion is a man-made construct… and that none of the religions seem likely to have gotten it totally “right” due to man’s infallability.

Rest assured that if I had an experience like yours, it would be “enough” for me to chuck my atheism in the can and accept that I was wrong. You’ve given an impression before that for some atheists, there’s no “evidence” that would ever be good enough, and that if we had an experience like yours, we’d simply assume we were hallucinating or otherwise impaired. It’s just that nothing of the sort has ever happened to me, so I remain an atheist awaiting proof.

I don’t know if it’s “fair” to not accept your testimony as evidence, but I guess since it didn’t happen to me it’s easy (easier, anyway) to discount. I still have enough of a skeptic in me to note that you already were predisposed to believe in god… and the one who “visited” you was in fact the one you believed in already ( I mean, as opposed to Vishnu, Odin, etc).
Also, since I don’t know you, I don’t know if your experience came at a particularly vulnerable or emotional time in your life as opposed to, say, an ordinary run-of-the-mill Wednesday afternoon.

I will say this-- your account has given me something to think about deeply, because I think you’ve earned the right to be taken seriously in this debate. Most theists would’ve bailed out of this one a looooooong time ago, yet you’ve hung in there and presented your “case” admirably.

Again I hope that sharing that extemely personal narrative isn’t something the collective “we” goaded you into. I admire the courage it took to post it, especially given that you didn’t tell another living soul about it for ten years, and here it is on a very public forum.

If nothing else, I can now appreciate why “convincing you” of the irrationality of believing in God is, well… an exercise in futility. You’re not going to change your mind… and I can’t honestly say that I blame you.

[Musicat]

Originally posted by IWLN
I see pictures in my mind too, but I call them fantasies.

Apparently only part of the time, as you follow that with personal experiences that others might well label fantasies, too. But to you, they seemed real.

Is this how we determine reality? How strongly someone feels about an event? UFO abductees feel very strongly about their experiences, too. Does that mean they are real?

Does everything that goes on in your mind reflect reality? Is your mind so perfect that it can analyze the data fed to it by your imperfect senses and inerrantly come to the correct conclusion? When you watch a magic show, do you think the conjurer is really doing the impossible? Are your senses never fooled?

I have had experiences quite like yours on occasion, too. My first inclination is to label them dreams. I would change that label if I found hard evidence to the contrary; so far, that hasn’t happened. If I dream of floating out of my bed and flying through the air, and when I wake the ceiling doesn’t have a man-sized hole in it, Occam’s Razor suggests it was only a dream. Powerful, mind-blowing, but only a dream. Perfectly logical.

[MyOld85MG]

IWLN, your experience made me think of something in a different way.

Okay, suppose there is a God, omnipotent and omniscient, or at least pretty powerful and aware.

I think we can be pretty sure that God is not what any particular religion describes Him/Her as. Because believers in any number of religions have had experiences such as yours, there can’t be any one religion that has the “one, true” description of God.

And since (it seems) these experiences are fairly rare in the population, what are the rest of us to believe?

As a matter of faith, do we accept that there are a few folks who experience the divine and that’s enough for us? (Just trying to turn this thing on its head and look at the situation for someone who hasn’t had such an experience.)

In any case, it seems to me that the crux of the matter is whether we (the rest of us) decide that there is a God out there who manifests to some people.

And if we do accept that, then we’re pretty much forced (I think) to reject any single doctrinal version of God. Maybe we have to look for the commonalities among religions and assume God has those common attributes. But as for the rules and regulations (e.g., canon law), there really is no basis for accepting any particular set - we’re faced with the considerable task of deciding the best way to live, given our assumptions about what God wants.

Anyway, another open question for me: If folks all over the world and throughout time have had experiences of their God, does God really care how anyone conceives of Him/Her, so long as that person lives a moral life? Does it really matter to God whether someone is an atheist, agnostic, theist, Buddhist, or evangelical Christian?

Maybe one approach to selecting a view of God is the “feels good” approach. I’m not saying this to be flip. I’ll defer to Martin Gardner (author and skeptic) who is neither an atheist nor an agnostic, but a non-affiliated theist. Here’s a quote from an interview :

Shortly before he died, Carl Sagan wrote to say he had reread my Whys of a Philosophical Scrivener and was it fair to say that I believed in God solely because it made me “feel good.” I replied that this was exactly right, though the emotion was deeper than the way one feels good after three drinks. It is a way of escaping from a deep-seated despair. William James’s essay “The Will to Believe” is the classic defense of the right to make such an emotional “leap of faith.” My theism is independent of any religious movement, and in the tradition that starts with Plato and includes Kant, and a raft of later philosophers, down to Charles Peirce, William James, and Miguel de Unamuno. I defend it ad nauseam in my [book].

(emphasis added)

So the only thing left for me to object to is religious imperialism. Going back to the early posts in this thread, I do object to believers who try to trump science with religious dogma or who use anything stronger than words to promote their particular beliefs.

I think those who have experiences such as yours would be forced (logically) to conclude that there is no single manifestation of God, and so there are no (or very few) religious laws carved in stone that should apply to everyone.

And that (I think) puts you in the company of a number of religious mystics (e.g., Thomas Merton, the Dalai Lama, and many others) who may have come out of a specific tradition but have transcended it.

Okay, that’s it for my current ruminations. I wonder how that squares with your viewpoint.

[IWLN]

ammo52

Thanks for the nice response. Yeah, I let myself be goaded into it, but that’s okay. Except for that “god thing”, I have always been very reasonable. Even very young in Sunday school, I was always stopping them and wanting to know “how they did that”. Noah’s ark was the first time I remember getting in trouble for not shutting up and I never gave up from there.

I don’t know if it’s “fair” to not accept your testimony as evidence, but I guess since it didn’t happen to me it’s easy (easier, anyway) to discount.

It is completely fair not to. I even admitted that other people’s stories brought out the skeptic in me.

Also, since I don’t know you, I don’t know if your experience came at a particularly vulnerable or emotional time in your life as opposed to, say, an ordinary run-of-the-mill Wednesday afternoon.

I looked at that too. I was newly single(one year), felt guilty about the divorce(because of my parents, not God), even though I didn’t initiate it, but was having the time of my life. I had married my first “real” partner when I was very young. So there I was actually single for the first time since I’d become an adult. I felt powerful and alive, not weak or depressed. I was mentally and emotionally sound.

The reason blowero was able to “goad” me into this is that he made me realize that I was embarrassed about what had happened to me. Not the response God intended, I’ll bet. Anyway, I am sorry for the snippy reply. I was mad at myself, not at anyone else. IWLN

[IWLN]

*Originally posted by Musicat *

Apparently only part of the time, as you follow that with personal experiences that others might well label fantasies, too. But to you, they seemed real.

That’s fair for you to label them that way. I gotta tell you Musicat, my fantasies are usually about men, real ones, not God. And unfortunately I don’t feel other fantasy people physically touching me at that time. I also have fantasies about winning the lottery. No physical action there either. Not enough imagination I guess.

Is this how we determine reality? How strongly someone feels about an event? UFO abductees feel very strongly about their experiences, too. Does that mean they are real?

I do not determine my reality from other people’s experiences, unless they’re proven/repeatable. My reality comes from proven facts and personal experience. Had I truly been a UFO abductee, I would have been reluctant to make that widely known also. Not so much because of other opinions, but because these events are outside of what seems logical to me.

Does everything that goes on in your mind reflect reality? Is your mind so perfect that it can analyze the data fed to it by your imperfect senses and inerrantly come to the correct conclusion? When you watch a magic show, do you think the conjurer is really doing the impossible? Are your senses never fooled?

No, my mind isn’t perfect. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. Do I think I am? Absolutely not. I was in the desert last summer and it look like the ground was moving, but I knew it wasn’t. I have an above average IQ and the ability to process input in a logical manner. Some data defies logic, but that doesn’t make it untrue. Just out of my general experience.

I have had experiences quite like yours on occasion, too. My first inclination is to label them dreams. I would change that label if I found hard evidence to the contrary; so far, that hasn’t happened. If I dream of floating out of my bed and flying through the air, and when I wake the ceiling doesn’t have a man-sized hole in it, Occam’s Razor suggests it was only a dream. Powerful, mind-blowing, but only a dream. Perfectly logical.

Had I been in bed or asleep in a chair, I would beyond a shadow of a doubt think, “hmm…weird dream”. I have had dreams about God before, twice that I can remember and just looked at them to see if my mind,(me) was trying to tell me something. It never occurred to me that it was God trying to tell me something, and I don’t believe it was. I have floating dreams too, although I never thought to check out my ceiling. I know what a dream is and although very vivid sometimes, is always followed by waking up. I was the first person to tell me that what I saw and felt wasn’t logical. I would expect no less from other people. IWLN

[Julien]

I totally never said I despised Christians. I did, however, infer that I despised the Christian Religion. You must’ve read me out of context. ;

[IWLN]

*Originally posted by vknowles *
IWLN, your experience made me think of something in a different way. Okay, suppose there is a God, omnipotent and omniscient, or at least pretty powerful and aware.

Okay, I’m with you. Although the jury is still out on omniscient, omnipotent seems right.

I think we can be pretty sure that God is not what any particular religion describes Him/Her as. Because believers in any number of religions have had experiences such as yours, there can’t be any one religion that has the “one, true” description of God.

I agree with that 100%. I don’t believe any religion or person has a true description of God or his nature.

And since (it seems) these experiences are fairly rare in the population, what are the rest of us to believe?
As a matter of faith, do we accept that there are a few folks who experience the divine and that’s enough for us? (Just trying to turn this thing on its head and look at the situation for someone who hasn’t had such an experience.)

Just as I look at someone else who claims to have had such an experience. I don’t think it is wrong not to believe someone else’s experience. It’s okay to be skeptical.

In any case, it seems to me that the crux of the matter is whether we (the rest of us) decide that there is a God out there who manifests to some people.

I’m not sure I agree that decisions about someone else’s experience should have any impact on what you believe. One side of me says, yep you better believe and the other side of me, (that has actually learned from being here, to step waaay back and look at things) says analyze it, see if it means anything to you, file it away under probably not and keep on looking. I’m not a "good little witnesser for saying that, but your typical religions wouldn’t be so full of blind believers if they worked harder at coming to their own truths, not somebody elses. I think a “casual belief” with no “soul searching” is less valuable than a skeptic who is still searching. IMHO since God gave you that brain, you are entitled to use it without fear of retribution.

And if we do accept that, then we’re pretty much forced (I think) to reject any single doctrinal version of God. Maybe we have to look for the commonalities among religions and assume God has those common attributes. But as for the rules and regulations (e.g., canon law), there really is no basis for accepting any particular set - we’re faced with the considerable task of deciding the best way to live, given our assumptions about what God wants.

I do reject any single doctrinal version of God. We (man) has made this all so complicated and it really isn’t. The best way to live as far as God and man are concerned has always been the same. It would be better for man as a continuing species if he were good to everyone he came in contact with and helped everyone who needed it, within his power. If everyone did it, we would only have to worry about natural disasters, accidents and disease. Sounds like a simple plan, unfortunately not going to work for the whole world, due to lack of total cooperation. But, it’s really the only rule or regulation that counts. Pretty much all of the other rules are just definitions of what you need to do to “love your neighbor as yourself”(which of course sounds a lot lamer).

Anyway, another open question for me: If folks all over the world and throughout time have had experiences of their God, does God really care how anyone conceives of Him/Her, so long as that person lives a moral life? Does it really matter to God whether someone is an atheist, agnostic, theist, Buddhist, or evangelical Christian?

I don’t believe it does matter what physical or personality traits we give God. When I look at the “event” that happened to me, I realize that what I saw was what I associated with God and that what I saw wasn’t important at all. I don’t think God is visible in the way that we understand and so I saw what was necessary for me to know what was going on. So no, I don’t think it matters what label you give yourself. It’s only what kind of life you live. Of course that goes against much of what most religions represent, so is only my opinion, which I have learned to keep to myself at the church I am now attending. I’ve been thrown out of more churches than bars. I learn slowly, but yet I learn.

Maybe one approach to selecting a view of God is the “feels good” approach. I’m not saying this to be flip. I’ll defer to Martin Gardner (author and skeptic) who is neither an atheist nor an agnostic, but a non-affiliated theist.

Thanks for the link. He is the most amazing man. I understand what he’s saying although I can’t say feels good is my sole reason for believing, it is part of the reason that keeps me there. That “sole reason” somehow makes it seem that God or not, it feels good and I’m not sure that’s what he meant to say.

So the only thing left for me to object to is religious imperialism. Going back to the early posts in this thread, I do object to believers who try to trump science with religious dogma or who use anything stronger than words to promote their particular beliefs.

When a “religious” group is scrambling around trying to invalidate some scienctific point, I always wonder if they have doubts about God and are just foolish enough to think that something in science might somehow dis-prove God. They make religion look really bad.

And that (I think) puts you in the company of a number of religious mystics (e.g., Thomas Merton, the Dalai Lama, and many others) who may have come out of a specific tradition but have transcended it.

Naw, I don’t think so. I have no great truths or wisdom to impart. Everyone has to find their own truths. Besides that, I would look fat in one of those robes.

Okay, that’s it for my current ruminations. I wonder how that squares with your viewpoint.

Actually, I’m not even sure how I got here (SDMB). It was an accident, I’m blonde. But then decided I wanted to learn about other “viewpoints”. I stayed, not because I had anything to give you, but was getting a lot from you. You made me question myself, my faith, my beliefs, which was really good for me. Plus, I lost weight. Apparently it’s easier to eat potato chips when you’re watching Dr. Phil, than when you’re thinking about God. A win-win situation. IWLN

[ammo52]

What the–

You know, IWLN, you could have saved those of us trying to converse logically with you a looooot of time if you had simply admitted right up front that you were a blonde.

[IWLN]

*Originally posted by ammo52 *
**What the–

You know, IWLN, you could have saved those of us trying to converse logically with you a looooot of time if you had simply admitted right up front that you were a blonde. **

Gasp! Splutter! Ouch! IWLN

[ammo52]

Hehe-- you know I’m totally kidding, right? You’ve been such a good sport, and displayed a nice sense of humor throughout, I figured I could “lighten the mood” of this thread by making a blonde joke…

Just wasn’t sure, after your “sad face”, if you knew I was just foolin’.

No offense intended–

[IWLN]

*Originally posted by ammo52 *
**Hehe-- you know I’m totally kidding, right? You’ve been such a good sport, and displayed a nice sense of humor throughout, I figured I could “lighten the mood” of this thread by making a blonde joke…

Just wasn’t sure, after your “sad face”, if you knew I was just foolin’.

No offense intended-- **

It would be inhumane for me to expect you to squander the opportunity. I laugh at me all the time. IWLN

[MyOld85MG]

*Originally posted by IWLN *
**Actually, I’m not even sure how I got here (SDMB). It was an accident, I’m blonde. But then decided I wanted to learn about other “viewpoints”. I stayed, not because I had anything to give you, but was getting a lot from you. You made me question myself, my faith, my beliefs, which was really good for me. Plus, I lost weight. Apparently it’s easier to eat potato chips when you’re watching Dr. Phil, than when you’re thinking about God. A win-win situation. IWLN **

Well, I’m sure some of us got something valuable out of it, too, although I suspect most of us were not fortunate enough to lose weight in the bargain.

[Gmork]

As much as I wish I had time to go through and read all the responses to this thread - I really don’t. So if I repeat anything that has been said - I apologize. I have only read the first page. I just feel I must add my two cents.

1. What is the harm in believing in God (pick a God, any God) if it gives the believer comfort. Do you think it’s right to try and convince them that their comfort is a sham? Do you think it implies, gullibility, less intelligence or less growth?

No harm, really, to the individual who is doing the believing. The only time I have a problem with a religious person’s beliefs is when they are trying to force them and the standards they create on people of differing religions, or of no religion. I don’t think it is right for an atheist, a Christian, a Buddhist - anyone, vegetarians, Buffy fans - ANYONE - to try and shake up the beliefs and personal opinions of others. I also don’t believe religion plays a factor in gullibility, intelligence or growth - those things are individual. Hard-wired.

There is, I believe, some harm in religious parents not informing their children that they have a choice of what to believe and not believe.

2. How do you explain, not just the origin of man, but the origin of all. What was before that. I realize you don’t have the answer to that and you only really believe what is proved, so I guess I’m asking for your best guess scenario. You can give me the short version. Real short.

My best-guess scenario - I don’t know. But I do believe it is better for people to label things as ‘Unknown - but we’ll have a good bash at finding out!’ than just ‘Deity. Nope. That’s it. No other explanation, I don’t want to think about it anymore.’ I am prepared, after exhaustive reading, to accept the big-bang theory as entirely possible. But scientists are always coming along and re-testing, re-theorizing etc - in a couple of hundred years, or tomorrow - someone might propose something that seems even more possible. Or be able to prove it. I’m happy and content saying ‘I don’t know how it happened, but I’m glad it did.’

On a side note, I have several Deist friends. They accept the theory of evolution. And the big-bang theory, and that we have been from that point on - alone. They do maintain that a god of some sort caused said big-bang. I can’t hold with it, because it does smack of the labeling I mentioned.

3. If you’ve brought up evolution at all in the previous sentence, when you got to the origin of man part, how is it explained that there are no true remains of mixed species (part way through some transition), or are there? I don’t think evolution as I know of it disproves or proves a creator, but I’m sure my information on it has had a religious slant.

You are being very honest and respectful - which is great. And are willing to accept that you may have been fed biased information. And I’d have to agree with the poster AndrewT on page 1. Follow his link.

4. When you look into your children’s eyes, does it ever cross your mind that they’re just going to be dust in a few decades. Does all of that lost brightness, joy, potential, just gone, seem sad or just matter of fact or doesn’t it cross your mind?

I don’t have kids, but I do have people around me whom I love. I do know that they will die, as will I. I do not believe that their ‘souls’ will go to somewhere special afterwards. I do know that, yes, their bodies will rot in the ground and eventually become nothing, as will mine. It is sad. Death and loss is sad. That’s why I love that they’re here now, I’m here now. Let’s make the best of it and try to make it worthwhile for the people around us too. Just because this is a bit less shiny and grand an outcome than ‘heaven or hell’ - does not make it wrong. Just because it would be nice if we could all go somewhere lovely after we die - does not make it true.

5. Not really going to go here, just barely. Doesn’t there being no life after this one make abortion even more horrible, since this little person’s one chance for life is being snuffed. Or does it matter?

Of course it matters. But what does abortion have to do with the existence of God? Believers can not have abortions if it is contradictory to their beliefs. Non-believers can make up their minds accordingly. Neither party gets to dictate the decisions of the other. The point is, the choice should be there. I personally believe in the freedom of choice, including (up until the point during pregnancy where the foetus is scientificallu deemed to have become ‘alive’.) the right to terminate unwanted pregnancies. Like the world doesn’t have enough mouths to feed.

6. Does an atheist ever wish God were true, provable?

Well, I don’t. Perhaps others do. But I’ve never met one.

7. When you’re in the depths of sorrow or pain, with no one to pray to or hold you up; what do you do?

I work through it and am usually stronger because of it. I try to be self-reliant - and if things get too much, I have good friends who are always willing to help. And their responses are generally, immediate, logical and tangible. I can’t see how being someone who just starts praying when there’s trouble can ever get out of said trouble. If I fell down a hole, I would attempt a thousand different ways to get out. None of them would be ‘Waste time and energy begging someone whose very existence is unproven for help.’

8. I realize there are a lot of people out here hedging their bets and saying they believe in God and it has about the same meaning as I believe in eating right. For the people you’ve come across who truly do seem to believe, do you see any difference? More at peace? Happier? Or just more irritating?

Some seem happier, some seem just to be feigning happiness now because they are of the belief that a permanent ‘real’ happiness will come after they have died - but they are constantly tense and worried from thinking about what God thinks of them. Some are irritating - but that, again, is an individual thing. I’ve met some damn irritating atheists too.

9. Have you ever understood why a lot of “believers” talk so weird (almost a Christian version of baby talk) when they’re discussing religion. Okay, I threw that one in for me. Irritates the hell out of me when someone takes on that weird “do you know Jesus” voice. I’ve always wondered why they do it, when it is so likely to clear a room in under a minute.

No, can’t say I’ve ever understood it. It has been suggested to me that a simple & calm way of speaking helps to put people at their ease in your presence and thus makes them more likely to listen to and accept what you put forward, but I think a lot of said ‘believers’ overdo the ideas of ‘simple’ and ‘calm’ to the extreme and end up coming across in a monotone, with a string of childish words. This makes them sound a bit like what the popular stereotype of a ‘wierd-ass-cult-member’ sounds like. Catch my drift?

10. When I’ve heard so many universe theories and explanations about time, space and everything having different rules than we understand; why when we say you can’t really apply man’s laws of nature to God does it seem to irritate the non-believer. When so much about the universe is unexplainable, why do you think God should have to be proven or rationalized?

Well, see the answer to no. 2. Before I can believe in one, I think a God/s should be proven and rationalized because so much about the universe is unexplained. (note - not unexplainABLE, as you put it, just as yet unexplainED).

11. Do you ever look around at the beauty of nature, how complex even the function of our bodies are and think, how could this be some unplanned event?

I often look around at the beauty of nature, wonder about the complexeties of our biology etc and think ‘How lucky we are.’ I have no idea whether you have read Douglas Adams ever, but pick up ‘The Salmon of Doubt’ and find Adam’s comparison of the religious person to a puddle. I can’t quote it exactly - but it is an excellent analogy. In it, there is a hole in the ground, with all the roughness and little dips and curves that your average hole in the ground has. It rains. So all the drops that fall into said hole, form a puddle. The puddle, being rather naive, thinks ‘Oh, this hole is exactly the right shape to fit me, look, where I bulge out there is exactly the right shaped curve for me to fit in - it’s exactly the same shape as me! It’s perfect for me! It must have been tailor-made for me.’ - this is obviously nonsense, as we can tell, because what has actually happened is that the puddle gradually became the same shape as the hole. It had no other option. It was formed by it’s environment. As are we.

We have been around an AWFULLY long time. Just a blink, in comparison to other things, but still an AWFULLY long time. Plenty of time for the environment to shape us - into the intelligent and complex species that we are.

12. Do you think non-believers tend to be more pessimistic? Don’t get your panties into a bundle over that one. I just mean since I believe I have something really awesome to look forward to; I have some of that I get to go to Disneyland feeling. Ceasing to exist just doesn’t have the same ring to it?

Pessimism is just one more individual trait.

Also, I believe we’re enjoying something pretty damned awesome right now. Life.

[Dunderman]

*Originally posted by IWLN *
So if you’re looking at God with total reason and logic, well you’re looking at something that can’t be seen that way. It’s like trying to see the stars with your magnifying glass. Wrong tool.

This doesn’t fly, since it presupposes that God a) exists and b) is impervious to reason and logic. We have no reason to make either assumption.

Do you accept the possible idea that somewhere in the universe 1+1=2 doesn’t even remotely exist as an applicable equation?

I have a really hard time doing so. Any place that has anything at all will have the concept of 1+1=2.

So are you saying they are abstracts because they’re subjective?

Kinda.

Is it because on their own, without descriptions or scenarios, they don’t have meaning?

Exactly. You said they were real. I can’t see it. They’re just names humans have given to patterns and connections they seem to see.

So how does a scientist explain his belief in God, or do they?

Not really. Not that I know of.

Regarding your experience: thanks for sharing it with us. I seriously have no clue what I would do if I experienced the same thing, but I like to think that I’d be able to view it rationally. This will be no surprise to you, but I think it was something other than it seemed. I dream every night, and my experiences in those dreams feel real and vivid and colourful, but they’re still unreal.

[blowero]

IWLN, I’m sorry if I offended you; my intention was not to offend you or “goad” you into anything. For what it’s worth, I find your candor refreshing with respect to your experience. I can understand how you would believe in God, since, quite literally, you have seen God. To me, that’s more honest than one who contrives supposedly logical arguments trying to prove God through reason.

I’m not sure why you got so upset, though - You seemed to have wanted to ask atheists some tough questions, and up to now you had been a good sport about answering tough questions yourself. I’m sorry you feel put-upon now.

[IWLN]

Gmork, Thanks for taking time to answer my questions. I completely agree that parents should raise their kids in a way that educates them about different beliefs and lets them make their own choices. Thanks for the tip on the book. The library doesn’t have it, but I’ll keep looking. I read usually 3 books a week, so I’m always looking for suggestions. I flinch when I read some of the wording of my original questions. Boy was I naive. IWLN

[IWLN]

*Originally posted by Priceguy *This doesn’t fly, since it presupposes that God a) exists and b) is impervious to reason and logic. We have no reason to make either assumption.

Just a question, not an argument; So do you never in science have to presuppose something is true, in order to prove or disprove the theory?

I have a really hard time doing so. Any place that has anything at all will have the concept of 1+1=2.

I don’t agree. I think we’re eventually going to discover some really different “rules”. But it is just fun speculation at this point.

Exactly. You said they were real. I can’t see it. They’re just names humans have given to patterns and connections they seem to see.

Took me awhile on that one, sorry. But right in the middle of arguing with you about it, I finally got what you were saying. Thanks.

Not really. Not that I know of.

It would be interesting to know what thought process they go through.

Regarding your experience: thanks for sharing it with us. I seriously have no clue what I would do if I experienced the same thing, but I like to think that I’d be able to view it rationally. This will be no surprise to you, but I think it was something other than it seemed. I dream every night, and my experiences in those dreams feel real and vivid and colourful, but they’re still unreal.

No I’m not surprised you view it that way. I would to, if I were you. Had I been asleep, or even laying down; I would have come to the same conclusions. I feel like I did view it as rationally as possible for me. Hey, you had to be there. IWLN