Dear El Presidente Obama, a minor point of etiquette

[Martin_Hyde]

As expected nothing aside from abject worship of Obama will receive anything but instant and universal condemnation from these boards. Obviously only “serious flaws” are worth mentioning in reference to a sitting President; I’m just glad the board populace observed this rule when George Bush was President.

At least we can rest assured that all the criticisms of Obama are fueled by irrational right wing hatred, that way we can safely dismiss them. I’m just glad that the board populace also dismissed all criticisms of Bush as being fueled by irrational left wing hatred when he was President…

Anyway, I will say that traditionally American political leaders don’t bow to foreign monarchs; period. From a perspective of protocol it is absolutely not appropriate. How important is protocol? It isn’t, really, but the thing is protocol is so firmly established that there’s a whole staff of people whose only job is to make sure U.S. leaders follow it. These aren’t a partisan staff and they transcend administrations, so it means for a President to not be following protocol so repeatedly means said President has made the deliberate decision to not do so. Which is fine, but we should recognize that the reason the President doesn’t (by protocol) bow to foreign monarchs is because the one-sided bow is a sign of subservience. It’s something you did to someone of a higher class, and in prior eras pretty much all commoners would be expected to bow to any form of nobility, especially a monarch. Since we violently rejected monarchy it has never been protocol for an American leader to bow to a monarch.

To complicate matters a little bit “bowing” is a traditional means of mutual greeting in Japan. Somewhat akin to a handshake here in America. However, traditionally you bow to one another, in this case the Emperor did not bow because the Emperor as royalty is “above” the normal social niceties of Japanese society, and by tradition doesn’t bow to others. He isn’t an equal and he doesn’t bow. I’d have no problem with Obama bowing to the Japanese Prime Minister because as a matter of protocol the Prime Minister would also bow to Obama and thus it would be a greeting between equals.

[Rumor_Watkins]

you freakazoids who act as if we are back in 1776 wearing cute little hats and wigs, trouncing around, shunning royalty and elitism by refusing to bow, are fucking hilarious.

[elucidator]

There was a time that might have been important, a refusal to offer deference. Back when we were a revolutionary country, proudly defiant of the Old Order of kings and nobles. Some of Mark Twains best writing is scorn etched in acid for the pretensions of royal houses and a fierce affection for the American way (and, of course, a broken heart to see us turn to imperialism…but I digress…)

When we weren’t the most powerful single nation in human history, these dainty gestures mattered. But not anymore. Now, if we offer an acknowledgement, a gesture that used to mean submission now means a bit of flattery, meant to indicate and provoke a fondness towards the people represented by the king, by the minister, and so forth.

Oftimes, a spirit of cordiality can set an optimistic tone, which can foster a cooperative dialogue that can nurture more peaceful relations. I’m more or less generally in favor of peace. Pretty much always, come to think of it.

[Ludovic]

@mswas

Also, what Scandinavian countries have the juice to make anyone at all prostrate themselves?

You put “juice” uncomfortably close to the word “prostrate” for my reading impaired eyes :eek:

[Starving_Artist]

Is it only me who’s been harkening back to the ridicule Bush received around here when he once mistakenly tried to open a door that was locked? Where was all this high-minded rhetoric then?

Following protocol is important because, just like first impressions, it creates an image that can be hard to overcome. When Obama fails to follow proper protocol he creates an impression of himself as an amateur and a rube. When he continually does so, he creates an impression of himself as someone who either doesn’t give weight to protocol in the first place, or as someone who is so convinced that whatever he feels like doing is the correct way that that is all he relies on. Either way, he comes off like a dolt.

And it’s important, when you’re trying to get other nations to cooperate with you (or, even more importantly, when you want to persuade them to stop doing things you don’t want them to do…like developing atomic weapons) that you don’t look like an amatuerish lightweight who doesn’t know what he’s doing and doesn’t seem to care.

[mswas]

@Ludovic

You put “juice” uncomfortably close to the word “prostrate” for my reading impaired eyes :eek:

Oh man, that actually made me laugh so hard I almost started coughing. Which is not hard considering I can’t get rid of this stupid cough, but still I laughed out loud an honest too goodness belly laugh.

[mswas]

Martin Hyde I think it’s a canny thing for Obama to do. I think you make a valid point about protocol, but it also shows that Obama is making some effort to show deference and respect to other countries. At this point the US is so powerful that I doubt anyone takes it as submission.

[Sevastopol]

@Neverending_Elbow

…(Norway, Sweden, Denmark, etc).
…

(bolding mine)

What Scandinavian countries are left? And don’t even try saying Finland, or I’ll send the hamsters after you.

All three by most measures and opinions.

[Squink]

@Starving_Artist

Is it only me who’s been harkening back to the ridicule Bush received around here when he once mistakenly tried to open a door that was locked? Where was all this high-minded rhetoric then?

But that was hilarious. Just look at the look on the poor schlub’s face. How could anyone not laugh:

Besides, that was 2008, when everyone knew that his presidency was a failure.
Better to look back to 2006 when many still pretended, and Bush grabbed Chinese president hu Jintao’s jacket to keep him from walking away onto the south lawn of the white house.
There’s a comparable, if not more so, gaffe for you.

[Fear_Itself]

@bup

Apropos of very little, the wikipedia article George H. W. Bush Vomiting Incidentrequires cleanup.

A little sawdust will take care of that.

[Merijeek]

Wow, every once in a while I wonder if Smiling Dipshit is still a dipshit.

Fortunately, he has an OP often enough to make it clear.

-Joe

[Guinastasia]

@Starving_Artist

Is it only me who’s been harkening back to the ridicule Bush received around here when he once mistakenly tried to open a door that was locked? Where was all this high-minded rhetoric then?

That wasn’t worth ridicule so much (at least in MY opinion) as just laughter. (He seemed like he had a sense of humor about it too)

Methinks you’re thinking of him giving the German chancellor a massage. THAT was not right. Bowing to someone while shaking their hand != an unwanted massage.

:rolleyes:

[Starving_Artist]

@Guinastasia

That wasn’t worth ridicule so much (at least in MY opinion) as just laughter. (He seemed like he had a sense of humor about it too)

Bush did have a sense of humor about it. IIRC, he was hamming it up in the photo that Squink linked to.

My problem is that Obama just isn’t acting very presidential and he doesn’t seem to care. He shouldn’t be interjecting himself into disputes between a policeman and an arrestee; he shouldn’t be attacking Limbaugh; he shouldn’t be attacking Fox; and he shouldn’t be dismissively referring to opponents of his (or more accurately, Pelosi’s) health care bill as “teabaggers and anti-government people.”

He seems to feel that whatever he feels like doing - whether it’s greeting a foreign head of state or dealing with political adversaries - is ipso facto the right thing to do simply because he’s the one doing it.

That is foolishness wrapped in arrogance, and I’m disappointed to see that because it wasn’t much in evidence during the run-up to the primary and general elections.

ETA: I suppose the main thing I’m worried about is that between the things I mentioned above, his waffling on Afghanistan and decision to try terrorists in American courts and with American rights, I’m beginning to wonder if we don’t have another Jimmy Carter on our hands.

[elucidator]

So, your golden idol is tarnished, then? The rock solid faith and confidence you’ve so often expressed, it may be waning? Oh, dear.

[Starving_Artist]

“Cautious optimism” would be a more accurate description. And it’s fading by the day.

[Critical1]

@Starving_Artist

He seems to feel that whatever he feels like doing - whether it’s greeting a foreign head of state or dealing with political adversaries - is ipso facto the right thing to do simply because he’s the one doing it.

Wait wait wait, who are we talking about here?
cause you realize that that is a perfect description of our last president right?

[Starving_Artist]

So you’re damning your own guy by claiming he’s no better than Bush?

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Martin_Hyde

Anyway, I will say that traditionally American political leaders don’t bow to foreign monarchs; period.

Not that I don’t believe you, but do you have a cite to back this up?

@Martin Hyde

From a perspective of protocol it is absolutely not appropriate. How important is protocol? It isn’t, really, but the thing is protocol is so firmly established that there’s a whole staff of people whose only job is to make sure U.S. leaders follow it. These aren’t a partisan staff and they transcend administrations

Again, do you have a cite? Because as far as I know, the current Chief of Protocol, Ambassador Capricia Penavic Marshall, was nominated by President Obama, and the last one, Nancy Brinker, was out on 20 January 2009. So it looks like they are appointed by the President to me. In fact, looking at this list, it sure seems as if they are appointed by new Presidents as they come into office, if the new President feels like it. And nearly all of them lost their jobs the day a new President was inaugurated. Maybe you’re talking about the regular bureaucrats who work at the State Dept.?

@Martin Hyde

so it means for a President to not be following protocol so repeatedly means said President has made the deliberate decision to not do so.

So you have a cite to show the guidelines the President was given, so we can also know that he wasn’t doing things the way he was instructed? It’s weird that I can’t quickly and easily find a reference for something that you say is “so firmly established”, isn’t it?

@Martin Hyde

Which is fine, but we should recognize that the reason the President doesn’t (by protocol) bow to foreign monarchs is because the one-sided bow is a sign of subservience. It’s something you did to someone of a higher class, and in prior eras pretty much all commoners would be expected to bow to any form of nobility, especially a monarch.

Actually, this article contradicts you.

@wiki

Bows are the traditional greeting in East Asia, particularly in Korea and Japan. However, bowing is not reserved only for greetings. Bowing is a gesture of respect. Different bows are used for apologies and gratitude, to express different emotions, humility, sincerity, remorse, or deference, and in various traditional arts and religious ceremonies.

Note that there is a different type of bow done to show deference, humility, etc. than the type of bow one uses for a greeting. Do you have something to show that this a bow of deference, and not just a show of respect and greeting?

@Martin Hyde

Since we violently rejected monarchy it has never been protocol for an American leader to bow to a monarch.

Again, I’d love to see a cite for this assertion. I’m unable to find one myself.

@Martin Hyde

To complicate matters a little bit “bowing” is a traditional means of mutual greeting in Japan. Somewhat akin to a handshake here in America. However, traditionally you bow to one another, in this case the Emperor did not bow because the Emperor as royalty is “above” the normal social niceties of Japanese society, and by tradition doesn’t bow to others. He isn’t an equal and he doesn’t bow. I’d have no problem with Obama bowing to the Japanese Prime Minister because as a matter of protocol the Prime Minister would also bow to Obama and thus it would be a greeting between equals.

Actually, as I understand it, bowing is not “a” traditional greeting, it is “the” traditional greeting.

In yet another instance, I cannot on my own find a cite that shows that the Emperor never bows. As I understand it, he does not bow to his subjects. I can’t find anything that says he never bows under any circumstance. Can you help me out with a cite for this?

Since the Emperor isn’t the head of state, why is it wrong to show him respect? His function is to be the symbol of Japan, so essentially President Obama was showing respect for all Japanese people here. Why is that wrong?

I’m also curious why so many people think it’s wrong to show respect for your host. When I’m a guest in someone’s home, I don’t act like I own the place. I can’t see why we’d want our President to withhold a show a respect for his hosts and our allies.

Now, if he went down on one knee and kissed his foot, I could see a problem with that, but that isn’t what happened.

Martin did you express similar sentiments when President Bush bowed to this head of state? cite

How about when President Bush kissed King Abdullah? (same cite as previous)
Thanks in advance for your cites.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@ivylass

Do you have cites of other presidents bowing instead of merely shaking hands?

Well, I remember Poppy puking on the Japanese Prime Minister. Sterling ettiquette there.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Starving_Artist

Following protocol is important because, just like first impressions, it creates an image that can be hard to overcome. When Obama fails to follow proper protocol he creates an impression of himself as an amateur and a rube. When he continually does so, he creates an impression of himself as someone who either doesn’t give weight to protocol in the first place, or as someone who is so convinced that whatever he feels like doing is the correct way that that is all he relies on. Either way, he comes off like a dolt.

And it’s important, when you’re trying to get other nations to cooperate with you (or, even more importantly, when you want to persuade them to stop doing things you don’t want them to do…like developing atomic weapons) that you don’t look like an amatuerish lightweight who doesn’t know what he’s doing and doesn’t seem to care.

I asked Martin Hyde for a cite, and since you also seem to know what the proper protocol is, I’ll ask you too: do you have a cite that shows what proper protocol is for the President?