Death penalty for kiddie-porner!

Great Debates
1

Heard on CNN yesterday that one of the suspects in the huge kiddie-porn sting operation “Candyman” decided to off itself instead of face the music. (come up with your own damn link! i don’t know how to do it!)

I say, “GOOD!” Save us all alot of time and money. Hey, it was his choice. I figure he knew what he did, and wasn’t prepared to accept the consequences, and took his own way out.

Lets assume there was a mountain of evidence against this scum, and it would have been a slam-dunk conviction. What punishment would have been appropraite? Did this person do themselves a favor, knowing how child molesters are treated in the big house?

Debate greatly.

2

I think we must take notice when a person would rather take their own life than face the punishment society would give them. Except, of course, we don’t actually punish them in they way this guy probably feared: his fellow prisoners are probably what scared him. In such a case, prison is a meta-punishment. We feel comfortable assigning a man to spend X years of his life in prison, but perhaps fail to account for the treatment he will receive their by extra-“market” forces.

IOW, we sentence people based on how we are treating them, but neglecting the additional punishment (or possible rewards, depending on the convict) that occurs because of the way we run our prison system. It is “common knowledge” (though admittedly I don’t know how accurate) that child molesters are treated terribly in prison.

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I have recently changed my tune on the death penalty; I don’t think any state should allow it. If you are captured by enforcement agencies your life should be secure. But I think that is a total debate in itself, eh?

3

Then, if one is afraid of the treatment one will receive in prison, don’t do the crime!!

4

I’ll not argue that the treatment some get in prison counts as meta-punishment. But I personally think that any punishment given to child sex offenders is not enough. These people do not belong in soceity in any way, shape or form - ever. In my neighborhood we’ve got parents afraid to let their children walk 5 blocks home from school due to the faceless menace these miscreants pose. They are a huge negative to any kind of civilized soceity, and I’m in favor of far stronger sentencing to see that they can never, ever have access to any children, even so much as a magazine picture, again.

I’d like them all to be tried and convicted, their names and faces for all of soceity to see. Then I’d like each to be given a rope and told to either choose to do the right thing or rot away in a maximum security general population.

5

D-Odds they, by and large, aren’t ‘faceless’ . Data suggests that in the unlikely event that your child is molested, it is by some one the family knows and trusts.

and, while I think that molesting children is very bad, should be punished etc, I’m also aware that not all molestation situations are the same at all, and probably shouldn’t be treated the same.

(ie, the 17 year old who’s caught having some sexual contact with their girlfriend who’s a month shy of the 16th b/day, yes, as a mom, I’m not happy about the situation, but I’m hard pressed to see it as criminal in nature, and cannot agree with having the response to this be "let’s toss you in prison for the next x years where you’ll be subject to torture and rape from other prisoners, then you’ll get out and have to register on the internet as a child molester).

And, as far as the ‘they did the crime, etc’ concept, our system of jurisprudence specifically prohibits ‘cruel & unusual punishment’ , which I suspect “routine anal rape” could probably be considered. And, since most folks who go into prison, get out (legally) some day, it’s my considered opinion that we (as a group) are far better served by having their treatment inside prison be humane.

As for the OP- Possession of c/porn is considered a crime, with a probable sentence of prison. As long as there’s some treatment available (since they’d most likely be getting out some day, and I’d prefer having them have some treatment so they don’t reoffend), and given that there’d be sufficient basis for finding of guilt (ie careful about the lines between ‘picure of naked kid’ and ‘kiddie porn’, careful that ‘possession’ doesn’t just mean that you hit on a web site one day etc.) .

6

The problem with treatment for sex offenders, and more specifically paedophiles is that in jail they are not in any position to be tempted by their perversion, its not like the junkie who goes to jail and stays clean even though H is available.

So the paed looks like a model con,(such a person would not dare to have child porn in his posession in jail) there is no reason for him to do otherwise, he gets good behaviour reports, as a result he get parole and he is back out in the community offending again.

The stress placed upon staff working in sex offender treatment units is such that they have tours of duty that are limited to three months at a time and then they must take up counselling, after which they have to be returned to thier usual prison duties for a time before returning to the sex-case units.

I wonder if it is fair to require prison staff to offer such treatment programs, they end up being victims of a sort too.

I do not look up prisoners offending records unless there is a very pressing reason, otherwise I would likely find it difficult to deal with all prisoners in an even handed manner, there are some things one just does not want to know.

7

casdave - the data I’ve seen (and linked to in countless other threads on the subject), all suggest that treatment works. And actually it is absolutely essential that they start before they’re in a position to reoffend (we wouldn’t want them to begin dealing with the issues at the same point when they’d potentially hurt some one).

They need to see the victims as victims and not as willing participants. And to effect that sort of change takes time, of which they have plenty while locked up.

8

There goes the “pedophile” word again. Pedophilia and child molestation are not the same and should not be confused. A pedophile is characterized by by having fantasy of sexual nature about children. A child molester actually molest children. While I don’t think it is a good idea to have pedophiles working in the local day care, it is also not a good idea to just put them in prison so that they aren’t tempted.

9

That’s a little glib, ivylass. If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime, but my point is that we assign time based on prison being exactly what the justice system says it is. As any inmate anywhere will tell you, though, prison is not what the justice system says it is. It is an area where drugs are easier to get if you know the right people, where knowing the right people can make you a power-lord, where not knowing the right people will make your life a living hell. On top of that is the fact that you are, shall we say, receiving punishment from the state. But the state doesn’t set up the social pecking order that occurs when we put such people together. Perhaps I am just ignorant, but I’ve never felt that was really the goal of prison time.

Because when you go to prison, in some circumstances, you don’t just “give up ten years of your life.” That is simply the punishment that gets tacked on to being someone’s bitch (for example).

I think that is disgusting. I have been called a sociopath on these boards because I would shoot a thief during his attempt to steal, but these sort of comments are supposed to fly? Bullshit. There is no crime that one may commit where no redemption is possible. I admit that there may be cases where no redemption is possible, but that is based on the individual and not inherent in the crime itself.

I have never witnessed a scene so grotesque as when people talk about the violent fantasies they have about harming this specific brand of criminal.

No punishment is too little? You’d be satisfied with the way the Nazis treated the Jews? :rolleyes: Your sense of social justice underwhelms me.

10

Even worse!

As a father of a preteen son and daughter, I also agree - I wouldn’t approve of consensual sexual contact involving my children with others, but I’m pragmatic enough (and was once a teenager) and know better… I’d probably kill the 17 yo anyway :smiley: but that’s not the point. If a 17 yo were to touch her now, I would hope he suffered greatly before dying.

IIRC correctly, the recidivism rate among adults preying on children is extremely high. Quite frankly, soceity is better off if these people never reenter. They’ve already broken the social contract, and there is a very good chance they’ll do so again. I’m tired of feeling afraid because of these people. Many won’t be stopped simply because of the penalty, but at least they’ll never, ever get the chance to hurt anyone else’s child.

I’ll agree with the last bit (unless they can tell whether or not you lingered and checked out the entire library). But I’m also of the mind that even those looking at pictures who never have and probably never would actually go through with sexual contact with a minor deserve harsh treatment. These people enable the providers and give them a market. Both demand and supply need to be attacked.

I will readily admit I don’t think rationally on the subject, but when I read about the little girl snatched by a neighbor out of her bedroom or some other such thing, I wonder how I’m to protect my own children. These are heinous people and IMHO the toll they take on soceity warrants their removal, and if they are allowed to live out their lives in jail, the treatment they receive there cannot be bad enough to suit me.

11

I have this fantasy about being the dictator of a small island full of beautiful women who wish nothing more than to please me. That is a fantasy. I will never be a dictator and droves of beautiful women will never throw themselves at my feet. I still like pornography and indulge in it in a lawful manner. You wanna prosecute me for my fantasy? Maybe not you but others surely would if allowed.

For this you should probably excuse youself from rational debate.
Not trying to be a jerk D odds but we need rationality in finding useful solutions.

12

Well, I certainly understand the vehemence which inspires some of you to abandon rationality and cry for blood, torture, perpetual shunning, etc. I applaud D_Odds for acknowledging that his feeling are not rational. I hope that he extends that awareness far enough to not argue that social policy should be set in accordance with his irrational desires.

Child molestation raises spectres of utter horror in the minds of parents (and of many other people). I have no direct experience (thank probability), but I have very “intimate” second-hand experience. I do not exaggerate when I say that I might kill any person I caught molesting my son.

That is a reaction based upon passion and fear and the desire for vengeance: powerful emotions which are inextricably linked to human action. Powerful emotions which are famously poor foundations for social policy.

I often see statements made about the high rates of recidivism for molesters. I haven’t seen any hard data to back this up, though, and I suspect that it is a myth which play squite successfully to our fears and anger. This study by Canada’s Solicitor General points to lower recidivism rates for sexual offenders than for non-sexual inmates of a maximum security prison. This study has somewhat more ambiguous results, but it certainly shows nothing to suport the idea that child molesters re-offend at a rate significantly higher than vilent criminals who are not child molesters. The above study and this one (also from Canada) both suggest that rapists are significantly more likely to re-offend than child molesters.

Now, I have a great hatred for rapists, too, but I also oppose the notion that as a society we should subject rapists to any form of barbarous pain and suffering that fellow inmates can imagine.

Prisoners get out. They get out having learned to function inside the artificial environment which we impose upon them through incarceration. If the lessons we teach are that brutality goes unpunished, that security is impossible outside of personal force, that authority is uncaring and abusive–well, we should not be surprised to reap the harvest of those lessons.

Incarceration is a punishment. Loss of self-determination is a punishment. Denial of opportuniuty is a punishment. Not only is it unnecessary for us to impose the further punishments of physical abuse and sexual predation, it is barbarous for us to allow them. The list of things wrong with our penal system is long, and the solutions are neither obvious nor easy, but pretty close ot the top of the list is the inability and/or unwiliingness of our prison officials to secure the physical environment.

13

**D-Odds - ** the reference to molesters more likely to be some one known to the household was in reference to your neighbors keeping their kids indoors. That’s not the way to protect your children.
(there are ways, but I’m not hijacking this thread more).

And your ‘IIRC’ re: recidivism rates well, gee, how 'bout I call ya on that? See, in all **my ** research I’ve seen that data re: molesters is that their recidivism rates are generally lower than for other offenses, especially when you factor other data in (for example treatment, factor out recidivism for something other than another sex crime etc.)>
(I’ve posted links for ages about that, tried looking in the search engine for the relevant threads and the hamsters started spitting at me)

14

Key on lawful manner. A case can be made that you are contributing to sexual slavery (I posted a link in another thread, but I’m not hunting for it now) as suppliers are forever looking to satisfy buyers demands for new faces and lewder acts - but it would be much harder to provide a direct link. There is plenty of legal porn with willing and knowing participants. Child porn is not legal, and never willing.

We debate here, but I don’t know how many solutions are found on the SDMB. People may have good ideas, and opinions may change, but even an indirect link to solutions would be hard to prove. Rationally speaking, pedophiles are a huge net negative on soceity; they take away more from the individual and from their effect on soceity more than they ever give. Soceity does not need them, and, if my memory is correct and the reports I recall accurate, curing them is often impossible. Also, as long as there is a demand, someone will provide a supply, therefore supply and demand both need to be reduced.

Lastly, you cannot divorce emotion from any rational discussion - just think of every liberal vs. conservative thread on these boards. When it comes to perceived (although, statistically speaking, extremely small) threats to my children, I, at least, readily admit that my thinking is not necessarily rational, nor does it necessarily follow suit with my overall opinions for dealing with the criminal population.

15

As another father with preteen children, I can definitely see where D_Odds is coming from. Even though I am strongly pacifistic and despise harm coming to anyone, I tend to not feel sorry for child molesters. Whether they are friends, family, or faceless strangers, I would find it very difficult not create my own little killing field with any bastard who would do that to my children.

To compare severe punishment of shit-pile-human-fuckups that would take innocent children and tear them up physically, spiritually, and emotionally to the heinous acts performed by the Nazis against the Jews, is an attrocious analogy. As well the analogy of child porn/molestation to adult porn and fantasy is equally preposterous, and invalid to the debate.

I am trying not to rant, but this is one of a few issues that really hit me hard as a dad. If I can do anything to protect my kids from that kind of harm I will, and if all I can do is revenge them, to allow them the small comfort of knowing that the person who hurt them can hurt them, or anyone, ever again, well then I will do that too.

But for my kid’s sake I hope it never comes to that.

16

I am sure that wring has more and better resources for the question at hand, but here is a State of Arizona study that places the overall felony recidivism rate for sexual offenders (including but not limited to child molesters) at 14.2%. Of that group, only 3.2% were convicted of a second sexual felony.

Take back you reason and realize that ignorant fear is a poor basis for condemning another human being to a lifetime of unremitting abuse and suffering.

As to the “net worth to society” argument–bullocks. Demonstrate first that no pedophile has ever made a significant contribution to science, art, philosophy, etc. The crime itself has no redeeming social value, but we can say the same about almost any crime. That’s why we make them crimes.

For all I know, Thomas Jefferson might have dallied with Sally Hemmings before her 18[sup]th[/sup] birthday. That wouldn’t mean that Jefferson’s contributions to our society would suddenly vanish into a puff of rhetorical smoke.

17

for whatever stats are worth here is a link to a Canadian study that shows that 1 in 5 (19.5%) of extrafamilial child molesters reoffend. That is a high number…

I don’t know who you were responding to Spiritus, but my viewpoint is not based on ignorant fear, but on good old-fashioned Old Testament-style hatred of child molesters. (and before this turns into a religious debate, I hold no religious belief, whatsoever.)

18

One other factor we need to keep in mind. To be registered as a sex offender one does not have to actually commit the crime. In many states simply being accused puts you on the roster.

There have been cases in the past where adults out in full force to “clean up” their town have worked with overzealous police officers to coerce children into confessions and to prosecute innocent people. (Most noticable the Devil worship/sex ring problems in the late 80;s).

I am not saying we need to loosen the prosecution, but I do think that we need to question what a sex offender is and who gets the label (and how).

19

4 out of 5 is an even higher number. Yet you would argue for policy based upon the repeat offenses of a minority. If 20% of some population to which you belonged were statistically likely to commit a crime, should we sentence you to the appropriate punishment?

Unreasoning fear::unreasoning hatred

2 sides of the same coin. And it is a poor currency for use in a civilized society.

20

DId you notice Ford that the data you gave (20%) was quite similar to what **Spiritus ** had already posted (and is significantly less than ‘most’ etc.). And, you selected the sub group of molesters more likely to reoffend (and more importantly) less likely to exist.

(with the given that any additional molestation is horrible etc. - I do not wish to discount the real suffering done).

What best to do? well, certainly we can (and should) study the data more. Treatment seems to work well with many. We also should cease the hysteria (again the 17 year old w/a 15 year old should not have to register as a sex offender).

People are most afraid of the stranger breaking into their house and kidnapping their child. The recent case in California for example. Of course, the fact we all know about it should demonstrate how relatively rare it is. Tragic, yes. But very, very rare.

So, back to the OP. What should be done? Hopefully, they’ll have a fair trial. And if the evidence demonstrates that they did, in fact, knowingly possess and attempt to get more, kiddie porn, then they’ll serve some time in a cell, where hopefully, they’ll get treatment to minimize the risk of them reoffending when released. And, since intentional violent acts against other human beings are generally not legal in this country, I’d hope that such violence wouldn’t be state sanctioned.