Debate: Proselytising is misguided and ineffective.

Great Debates
1

On a bus ride last weekend, I was pondering the way some religions have of sending members around to ask people whether they’ve heard the religion’s Good News, and to try to convince them to join the religion and Be Saved From The Horrible Fate That Otherwise Awaits Them.

It occurred to me that trying to logically convince people to change their religion is the wrong way to go about this, because it doesn’t work. Why? It’s misguided and ineffective.

It’s misguided. Proselytisers are trying to logically persuade someone to join. But religion, almost by definition, is not logical. If the potential convert is sufficently logical to be swayed by argument, will he or she not be likely to see logical flaws in the religion’s beliefs?

It’s ineffective. Proselytising offends some people and increases their resistance to the religion, thus reducing the chance that they’ll convert.

IMHO, when proselytising proves ineffective, too many religions then try to attain political power to force people to join. But the more they do that, the more they show themselves as a political organisations, pushed by internal organisational drives for resources… and the more they obscure their Truths with such politics.

In my opinion, religious organisations do much better by showing people their advantages, their Good Works, and their Good News, not by telling people about them. A healthy social scene and a sense of humour is much more likely to attract converts than a knock–or jackboots–at one’s front door.

Comments?

2

It’s not entirely ineffective, because if it was, groups wouldn’t do it. And, if you compare the population of Jews in the world, who do not proselytise, to the population of Christians and Muslims in the world, who aggressively proselytise, proselytation seems incredibly effective.

3

If the Church really acted like the Church - like the embodiment of Christ on earth – people would be banging on the doors to get in. There would be no need for seeking people out. So I agree with your final comment: the best way for the Church to attract new people to Christ is not to go out and convince them, but to show them what it means to follow Christ. Of course, that’s infinitely harder to do than to say.

I agree with you that proselytising, at least in its most common form, is hugely ineffective and very often counterproductive.

The only quibble I have is when you say that people can’t become Christians though logic. Perhaps you’re right that it’s never pure logic; in fact, I would argue that it’s never pure emotion either; it’s a matter of grace. However there are prominent Christians for whom logic has played a key role in their conversion (C.S. Lewis comes to mind). I’m not saying they have airtight arguments, but that they attribute their conversion to a logical process.

4

Well, I don’t recall people banging on the door of the synagogue trying to get in when Jesus was embodied. The main groups that followed Him were for the miracles. I do not believe sinners are going to be breaking down the doors of the church any more than if criminals heard the police chief was in, so they wanted to turn themselves in.

And to say it’s ineffective then it seems you measure it by your idea of success, and, from an eternal perspecive, you may be wrong. A friend of mine became a Chrisitian through a track left in a bathroom. Do I think those are effective? Well, one life was changed because of it. Now he was the head of our department at the Bible College I went to, teaching lots of students. So sorry, I don’t really think you can say that.

And no, there are no logical flaws.

5

That’s because Judaism was a tribal sect that was considered backward and primitive by Roman society. But anyway, we’re talking about the Christian church here.

Wouldn’t patients wanting to get into a hospital be a more appropriate metaphor? I don’t understand why fundamentalist Christianity emphasizes fear and punishmet when Jesus in the Gospels constantly preached love and forgiveness, for example the woman taken in adultery. Jesus 's harshest condemenation was not directed at the weak or fallen, but at the self-righteous who elevated themselves above their fellow humans.

Maybe, but I find that the most earnest fundie proselytizers know much less about the Bible than I do. I’m not interested at being preached to by the uneducated and the credulous.

Sorry for being pedantic, but it’s a tract, not a track. And if someone can be converted by reading a sloppily printed, simplistic pamphlet, I feel very sorry for that person’s lack of critical thinking.

Well, just off the top ogf my head, what about the probem of evil, e.g., if God is all powerful and all-good, why does he allow innocent children to get cancer? If God is so loving, why is he so ready to send His creatures into eternal suffering?

6

Ca[ptain Amazing, how much of that ‘success’ is the spread of human organizations through political means, rather than the spread of actual belief?

You’re right, Skammer, I meant pure logic. If your emotions are in play, you’re not being logical. And, if Grace is involved, that isn’t logic either, is it? It’s being touched and changed by Deity, or changing internally to be able to perceive Deity. (Or am I completely misunderstanding what Christians mean by Grace?)

Svt4Him you mention a friend finding Christ because of a tract (you meant ‘tract’, right?) found in a bathroom. The tract may have been a catalyst, but was it the sole cause? Did not the friend find a church of weloming people as well, to help him or her on the journey? It seems to me that would have contributed at least as much as one printed page…

7

Nope, grace may be foolish, but I don’t believe it’s illogical.

Correct is it tract. I’ve never prided myself on spelling. As for hospital, although that’s a nice thought, again the logic is wrong. You say it’s about punishment, I say it’s about sin. The law is what shows people that they need forgiveness, and to follow your line of reasoning, it’s only through knowing someone has broken the law will they know the need to see ‘a doctor’. Otherwise why would a perfectly happy sinner feel the need to go to the hospital? And please tell me how the rich young ruler elevated himself above anyone, or do you just assume that because he was rich?

How can one respond to such great logic and insight.

Sunspace- that may be true. I believe it is a process. One plants, one waters, but it’s not then ineffective.

As for illogical, this question/comment has been addressed before. Study the soil for a moment. It naturally produces weeds. No one plants them; no one waters them. They even stubbornly push through cracks of a dry sidewalk. Millions of useless weeds sprout like there’s no tomorrow, strangling our crops and ruining our lawns. Pull them out by the roots, and there will be more tomorrow. They are nothing but a curse! Consider how much of the earth is uninhabitable. There are millions of square miles of barren deserts in Africa and other parts of the world. Most of Australia is nothing but miles and miles of useless desolate land. Not only that, but the earth is constantly shaken with massive earthquakes. Its shores are lashed with hurricanes; tornadoes rip through creation with incredible fury; devastating floods soak the land; and terrible droughts parch the soil. Sharks, tigers, lions, snakes, spiders, and disease-carrying mosquitoes attack humanity and suck its life’s blood.

The earth’s inhabitants are afflicted with disease, pain, suffering, and death. Think of how many people are plagued with cancer, Alzheimer’s, multiple sclerosis, heart disease, emphysema, Parkinson’s, and a number of other debilitating illnesses. Consider all the children with leukemia, or people born with crippling diseases or without the mental capability to even feed themselves. All these things should convince thinking minds that something is radically wrong.

Did God blow it when He created humanity?

What sort of tyrant must our Creator be if this was His master plan?

Sadly, many use the issue of suffering as an excuse to reject any thought of God, when its existence is the very reason we should accept Him. Suffering stands as terrible testimony to the truth of the explanation given by the Word of God. But how can we know that the Bible is true? Simply by studying the prophecies of Matthew 24, Luke 21, and 2 Timothy 3. A few minutes of openhearted inspection will convince any honest skeptic that this is no ordinary book. It is the supernatural testament of our Creator about why there is suffering…and what we can do about it.

The Bible tells us that God cursed the earth because of Adam’s transgression. Weeds are a curse. So is disease. Sin and suffering cannot be separated. The Scriptures inform us that we live in a fallen creation. In the beginning, God created man perfect, and he lived in a perfect world without suffering. It was heaven on earth. When sin came into the world, death and misery came with it. Those who understand the message of Holy Scripture eagerly await a new heaven and a new earth “wherein dwells righteous-ness.” In that coming Kingdom there will be no more pain, suffering, disease, or death. We are told that no eye has ever seen, nor has any ear heard, neither has any man’s mind ever imagined the wonderful things that God has in store for those who love Him (1 Corinthians 2:9). Think for a moment what it would be like if food grew with the fervor of weeds.

Consider how wonderful it would be if the deserts became incredibly fertile, if creation stopped devouring humanity. Imagine if the weather worked for us instead of against us, if disease completely disappeared, if pain was a thing of the past, if death was no more. The dilemma is that we are like a child whose insatiable appetite for chocolate has caused his face to break out with ugly sores. He looks in the mirror and sees a sight that makes him depressed. But instead of giving up his beloved chocolate, he consoles himself by stuffing more into his mouth. Yet, the source of his pleasure is actually the cause of his suffering. The whole face of the earth is nothing but ugly sores of suffering. Everywhere we look we see unspeakable pain. But instead of believing God’s explanation and asking Him to forgive us and change our appetite, we run deeper into sin’s sweet embrace. There we find solace in its temporal pleasures, thus intensifying our pain, both in this life and in the life to come.

8

Not all religions are alogical (illogical?). Some faiths are not concerned at all with an afterlife or miracles.

9

My real question here is about the nature of religious conversion, not the nature of the religions themselves.

I maintain that the process of religious conversion itself is non-logical, whatever the nature of the religion involved, and that, therefore, trying to convert someone through logic is counterproductive.

Svt4Him, how is Grace logical? It seems to me that it’s the intercession of God in changing one’s viewpoint, is it not? Is that not outside the realm of human logic?

10

First, let me back off just a bit from when I said this:

Proselytising can be effective, but only in cases where the recipient has some kind of predisposition to be receptive anyway. And I think proselytising pushes more people further away from Christ, then those it brings in.

And Svt4Him, I have more experience in this than you probably imagine. In high school I spent a whole summer with a teen missions organization in Europe, witnessing and handing out tracts to people in London. In college, I spent several spring breaks and another entire summer with Campus Crusade for Christ doing the same thing. I’ve handed out hundreds of tracts (at least) in my lifetime, and I’ve talked to dozens of strangers on the beach, along the canals, or on the streets of SoHo. Some of them – apparently – accepted Christ; but I’ll never know if it was a true converstion, and emotional experience, or an attempt to please me.

I have very few bad things to say about those organizations I was involved with. However, out of all the Christians I’ve known in my entire life, very, very few were the result of cold-contact evangelism (I can’t think of any right now). Instead, they were the result of seeing Christ in the lives of other Christians who had built a relationship with them. Do I ‘witness’ to my non-Christian friends? Sure, when it’s appropriate to share what Christ is doing in my life and in my church. When people see that, it’s attractive. But handing a tract to a stranger in the park and telling him he needs Christ – well, that’s almost never going to work. And if that person has been hurt or disappointed by Christians before, you’re only going to harden his heart more.

If you mean people weren’t climbing all over themselves to follow Jesus, you need to count how many times the Gospels referred to “the multitudes” who gathered around him. Not to see miracles, but to listen to him.

I like gobear’s analogy of a hospital.

Concerning logic, I think that it can play an important role in conversion. No always; probably not even usually. But I don’t think it ever plays the only role. You don’t decide who to marry based on logic alone, do you? You don’t love your children simply because it’s logical to do so. It may be logical to love your spouse and your children, but that’s not why you do it.

11

If you were to see a person drowning, you’d attempt to save him/her. But unless you have lifeguard training, you might not be able to consistently save lives in that fashoin. Proselytization is necessary to save souls from Hell. The problem is that many people are inadequately prepared to do so.

The typical atheist is going to have questions that even an expert could have a hard time answering. If you are going to try to save souls, you need to be properly trained and very well-prepared.

12

Right, completely ineffective. :rolleyes: Hmm, let’s see- 2000 years ago, there were something around a dozen Christians, now there a just a FEW more .

Proselytizing is MASSIVEly effective. True, I don’t care for it, and it does bug the hell out of those who have their minds 100% made up (to another faith, or to being an atheist), but it works.

13

"But Jesus withdrew with His disciples to the sea. And a great multitude from Galilee followed Him, and from Judea 8and Jerusalem and Idumea and beyond the Jordan; and those from Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when** they heard how many things He was doing, came to Him**.

Granted this may be the message, so I’ll agree it could be a bit of both.

Skammer- I personally think it’s the message that’s been lost, that makes cold contact ineffective, and I agree in part with living the life. The Bible talks about people preaching out of selfish gain, and the important thing was they preached the Bible. I don’t like CCC’s four spiritual laws, and it doesn’t surprise me you are not sure of true or false conversions. But back to the hospital, you will only know you are sick if you look in a mirror of your soul. The law is that mirror. The modern message is full of grace and love, and no repentance. God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life, may be true, but our idea of wonderful and Gods may not be the same. God’s wonderful plan for Paul included stoning and beatings, shipwrecks, hunger, prison, yet Paul counted it as nothing. The Bible is also clear when it says all of heaven rejoices when one sinner comes to repentance.

14

Does it matter? Whether the person is converting out of actual belief or personal advantage, the religion still gains a person either way. And even if the person converts for selfish motives, his or her children will still be raised in that faith and be taught it’s true.

15

This is one of the saddest things I’ve read in a while.

Any god that would allow children and babies to suffer is either not omnipotent or very, very unkind. Either way, assuming such a deity exists, he/she/it is unworthy of my praise or devotion.

16

I’m not a big fan of proselytization. Open the doors and attract by example. If the fruit borne is good, the people will come.

17

As a Mormon, I can deny that our proselyting process is really logic based at all; the main idea is that the proselytee reads the Scriptures and prays for guidance as to their validity.

But I think that an intellectual basis would be a fantastic complement to spiritual conversion. The Mormon church has a horrendous rate of turnover among new converts, due largely to a spurt of religious fervor that fades with the attrition of regularity. Logic and faith exist on a continuum, and any religion ought to have a fair mix of each.

If someone really thinks that he have the Truth, how can he not want to share that with others, especially if he thinks everyone else is condemned?

Captain Amazing: Whether the person is converting out of actual belief or personal advantage, the religion still gains a person either way. And even if the person converts for selfish motives, his or her children will still be raised in that faith and be taught it’s true.

Plus it lays the groundwork for the next generation of faithful who may be more devoted than their parentage. I know several people who converted to different religions and who aren’t really committed to them, but some of their young-adult offspring are.

18

I disagree. I went to a Christian school, so I saw plenty of “witnessing” in the five years that I attended. Never, not *once * did I see proselytising bring the desired results. Special church services and “tent revivals” were much more successful-- and I think there’s a specific reason why.

People who turn to religion actively seek it out. They call someone, attend a service, or ask a religious friend for guidence. Converts are people who seek to fill a void, not those who don’t feel that there is one.

Look at it this way: I’ll buy a new car when I’m ready to trade in my old one. When I feel it’s time, I’ll go look at the different lots, determine what available offers suit me best, and then make my decision. However, I don’t think I’d buy if salesmen dropped by my house, called me on the phone, or stopped me on the street and droned on at length about how a Chevy will change my life.

19

I think the goal of witnessing is to stumble across people who are really lonely. People whose spouse or SO just left them. Maybe they just got laid off from work, their dog died, etc. People in duress.

People like this will be more open to hearing “the message” b/c they are so distraught they are happy to have anyone to talk to. They’re in desperate need of friends. They may even think that these people talking to them is evidence that God really does care about them…look! he sent some people to cheer them up.

Beyond that, I don’t think it’s too successful.

Their basic message to happy people is “even though you’re happy, you’re going to hell, cause you’re an ugly sinner and haven’t been saved.” This just doesn’t go over well with people who consider themselves good, goal oriented, moral people.

20

Well, it worked on me even though I wasn’t in any crisis at the time. Some people are genuinely seeking the ultimate purpose in life. Going through a time of trauma can awaken people to this need, but it’s not always necessary.

The goal of witnessing is to bring people around. These people may be lonely or distraught, or maybe not.