Debate the only sound, non-racist argument for immigration control I've ever read

The most serious reason to limit immigration to the U.S. that I have yet encountered is the one Michael Lind (emphatically no racist or xenophobe – in fact he looks forward to a blended-race “TransAmerican Nation”) often gives: Unrestricted immigration only serves the interest of the overclass in holding down working Americans’ wages, etc. Lind wants America to become an all-middle-class society, and a constant inflow of low-skill manual workers just holds us back from that; therefore, he believes we should select for high-skill/education immigrants and discourage others. See this article of his from 2010, “Open Borders or High-Wage Welfare State.”

Nor is Lind indifferent to the immigrants’ plight – see this article from this year, “Immigration, Yes. Indentured Serfdom, No.”

(Note that this argument has nothing to do with the environmental effects of immigration; apparently Lind is under no illusion that immigration and overpopulation are somehow related problems, or that the environmental effects of overpopulation stop at any national border. Nor has it anything to do with our “culture” being overwhelmed, or immigrants being crime-prone or carrying leprosy, etc., etc.)

Does anyone see any counterarguments?

I’m more interested in which one you’d do away with, the open borders or the high wage welfare state?

The open borders, certainly; if I were convinced that would actually help maintain the high-wage welfare state; but I’m only half-convinced.

This is only a valid argument if you actually believe in things like the ‘overclass’…or that it’s low wage immigrants holding down the wages (along with the ‘overclass’ of course) of good, hard working ‘mericans. I’m not seeing how this isn’t racist, however, since the implications is that those dirty immigrants are holding back the wages of those hard workin’ 'mericans at the behest of, I assume a ‘white’ ‘overclass’. Though I’m sure it’s couched is suitable loony lefty rhetoric about class or some equal nonsense.

Sure it does. Let’s not even touch on the ridiculousness of a single class system, or how the US could ever maintain something like that when trade is open and free. Let me guess…we become an isolationist psudo-communist country that has no trade or dealings with the outside world, while we live in the workers paradise. Look how well that works out for the North Koreans, after all. :stuck_out_tongue:

I’m sure. Gee, never heard anything like THIS before…

Um, no…I don’t think I have the stomach for it this week. You’ve most likely already summarized it anyway, and doesn’t seem the sort of thing to take very seriously from where I’m sitting.

It’s basic racism couched in terms to make it palatable to left wingers with an equal inability to grasp reality, but who want to believe that it’s those dirty immigrants keeping us back…but, you know, we don’t mean those brown kinds (we ARE lefties after all), so we just mean the unskilled ones that we will select out and only let in the high skill ones who will fit into the classless overmind groupthink thingy we are building (what we will do with the home grown losers, under achievers or simply those who don’t want to fit in to the new, sole middle class remains to be seen, but there are always those reeducation training camps…)

So in an all-middle-class society, who’s mowing the lawns, picking the grapes, shingling the roofs, flipping the burgers, and minding the corner store?

Those jobs will all be paying middle-class wages, of course!

Or performing the heart surgeries, or managing the Fortune 500 companies, or arguing in the courts, or playing in the Super Bowl?

If the extra schooling, work, and talent it takes to achieve those things isn’t rewarded, why bother?

I would be all for open borders if we could handle the associated issues, security, social costs, etc. But we can’t, so we must be somewhat selective. But we need immigration, we always have. The menial labor of this generation gives birth to the educated, motivated, machinery of progress that has made this country what it is. I worked my way up from nothing*, as did my parents*, and their parents before them, there’s nothing wrong with the next generation of immigrants doing the same thing.

As for the ‘overclass’, the running dog lackeys of the imperialist warmongers will always be with us. We shouldn’t further convolute our decision making process just to spite them.

*nothing except for decent educations for my parent’s and my generation. We certainly don’t offer the educational opportunities we once did. My father grew up in the depression dirt poor but was able to get a bachelors degree at Queens College in NY virtually for free. The overclass we should be concerned with are the schools that have made a decent education out of the range of the average person.

Pretty much that, actually,

So everyone will be above average?

This kind of usage makes a good example of why “middle class” is one of those Humpty-Dumpty terms that means whatever the user wants it to mean.

God, you Dopers are dopes. It’s patently obvious that all the Latinos (let’s call a spade a spade) who have immigrated to the US have depressed wages at the low end of the scale. Crying “racism” about it doesn’t change a thing.

It’s also patently obvious there’s an overclass. Who the hell do you think the One Percent are? What do you call the people who own the bulk of the wealth in the US if not an overclass? We live in the greatest wealth inequality in American history. Of COURSE there is an overclass.

I’m all for immigrants coming to America and making good, it’s good for them, good for us. But there is absolutely no reason in the world that we HAVE to accept immigrants, just because they want to come here. Is anyone in this thread making that claim?

But they can make their case without insulting people. Try that next time.

It’s an American thing; admitting that there are class issues in America smacks of…Communism!! <Dun Dun DUUUNNN!!>

So we’re all supposed to ignore the obvious.

[QUOTE=Evil Captor]
I’m all for immigrants coming to America and making good, it’s good for them, good for us. But there is absolutely no reason in the world that we HAVE to accept immigrants, just because they want to come here. Is anyone in this thread making that claim?
[/QUOTE]

Well yeah…I am. I’m all for immigrants coming here, full stop, without all the…um…overtones of your post. Frankly, I have no idea why ‘they’ should be kept out, or why ‘just because they want to come here’ isn’t a good enough reason, but I’m sure it has to do with your more sensitive lefty perspective on it all. :stuck_out_tongue:

My ‘Latinos’ folks came to this country without a dime to their name and with very few skills…they didn’t even speak English. My dad built his own business and became one of those 1%er overclass guys, and every one of my brothers and sisters, including my own humble self, makes more than the national average both in terms of individual salaries and family income…in fact, for my part, I make more by myself and not including my wife’s salary than the national average for a family in the US.

Just pointing out that when you paint with a broad brush, it sort of shows your own colors.

To 9/11 CTers it’s obvious that the WTC was brought down in a controlled demolition <Dun Dun DUNNNN!!!> as well. :stuck_out_tongue:

Does Lind care about the rest of the world, or just America?

If it’s true that unrestricted immigration to the US would hold down working Americans’ wages, is this because “low” wages in the US are still higher than what immigrants could be making in their home country? Would it result in a higher average wage worldwide, even if it lowered wages in the US?

If I tried hard enough, I bet I could read racism into an argument that only considers a policy’s effects on the US and not on people (many of them non-white) in the rest of the world.

Actually. That is not “patently obvious” although I have no doubt that it is fervently believed.
Latinos with poor education or English language skills tend to acquire jobs in two categories:

  • genuinely low-paying jobs (paid-under-the-table gardening, maid service, food service, baby-sitting, etc.), for which they are generally only beating out other immigrants, anyway, as Americans were already avoiding them;
  • manual labor jobs that domestic people were already failing to fill: construction workers, cowboys, etc. In this category, they may have a depressive effect on the over all wages paid, but not to the extent that they are freezing Americans out of the market. When the building trades crashed a few years ago, large numbers of the immigrants went home for lack of work.

When the INS raided the various meat-packing plants and the occasional credit card centers in the nation’s center a few years ago, there was no sudden surge in American employment in those companies; nor was there a sudden surge in wages to attract more Americans.

I will not claim that you cannot make your argument, but your “patently obvious” claim is patently not obvious.

That analogy would only work if for weeks before 9-11 hundreds of workers had been seen going into the WTC with large crates marked DANGER: EXPLOSIVE, wiring them into place while people watched, and Osama bin Laden pressed the detonator on live TV.

:stuck_out_tongue:

  1. :dubious: It is not racist to point out that unskilled or semiskilled immigrant labor, legal or illegal, is generally cheaper than native-born labor; and that, therefore, the availability of a very large supply of immigrant labor in the marketplace may have some depressive effect on the native-borns’ wages and benefits and job security.

  2. Eh? Oh, the “white overclass” is actually a distinctly non-lefty theme in Lind’s case, dating at least from his 1995 book The Next American Nation. (Wherein he also lambastes affirmative action and multiculturalism, by the way.)

And, relating all that to the subject of race relations:

Note that while he calls it the “white overclass,” because it is mostly white, it does not include the majority of white Americans. (It does include pretty much all of the 1%, as a subset.) There are also black and Latino overclasses, which might merge with the white overclass by intermarriage in the future and might even be starting the process now; but at present they remain distinct from the white overclass, and differentiated from it by being for the most part salaried dependents upon it, lacking its wealth-and-power base.

Note that in this analysis, though one’s class status is strongly associated with a given income range, class status is not strictly a function of income. (E.g., an overclass person who loses his money still has his family, education, acculturation, friends, connections. Might bounce back. Better chance of being rich again than you have of being rich ever.) Social classes are social-and-associating entities that marry predominantly (not necessarily strictly) within themselves. Classes are sometimes coterminous with, but not identical to, ethnic groups, which may also be endogamous. You can work your way into a higher class, sort of, but classes culturally absorb the children of newcomers. (E.g., in the 19th Century, the old British landowning gentry intermarried with the rising commercial and industrial rich, and turned them into fair copies of gentry, in their manners and morals. In the formation of the American white overclass, it worked the other way – the rising managerial/professional class absorbed and transformed the old-money rentier class.) In the case of the present American overclass, it happens-to-be-white, that is, its cultural roots are Anglo-American all around. But it has welcomed Jews as full members by now, more or less, and there’s free intermarriage. And maybe in the future it will widen further and become a mixed-race overclass. But that wouldn’t be much improvement. The problem is the existence of an effectively hegemonic ruling class in a democracy, because, even with good will, and even with a membership encompassing a broad range of the political spectrum, such a class cannot help but serve its own interests even at the expense of other classes’. (No actual class-conspiracy need be postulated; it is simply a matter of a large number of people with certain economic interests in common acting, on their own and more often than not, in defense of those interests – that pulls them all in more or less the same direction, and the effect is the same as if they actually acted in conscious concert.)