Debating with Americans.

[straight_man]

@Camus

No transcript, but you can watch the introduction and his speech here. The most infamous statement he made here was that there weren’t any homosexuals in Iran (to general laughter from the audience).

A propos to nothing, the (Columbia) president’s introduction was very much a polemic, but absolutely brilliant. Definitely worth a listen.

[FinnAgain]

Bollinger’s intro.
President Looney Toons’ address.

Including this gem:

Question: […] your government has imposed draconian punishments, including execution on Iranian citizens who are homosexuals. Why are you doing those things?

Answer:[…] But as for the executions, I’d like to raise two questions. If someone comes and establishes a network for illicit drug trafficking that affects the youth in Iran, Turkey, Europe, the United States, by introducing these illicit drugs and destroys them, would you ever reward them? People who lead the lives – cause the deterioration of the lives of hundreds of millions of youth around the world, including in Iran, can we have any sympathy to them? Don’t you have capital punishment in the United States? You do, too.

In Iran, too, there’s capital punishment for illicit drug traffickers, for people who violated the rights of people. If somebody takes up a gun, goes into a house, kills a group of people there, and then tries to take ransom, how would you confront them in Iran – or in the United States? Would you reward them? Can a physician allow microbes symbolically speaking to spread across a nation?

We have laws. People who violate the public rights of the people by using guns, killing people, creating insecurity, sells drugs, distribute drugs at a high level are sentenced to execution in Iran.
And some of these punishments, very few, are carried in the public eye, before the public eye. It’s a law, based on democratic principles. You use injections and microbes to kill these people, and they, they’re executed or they’re hung. But the end result is killing.

Question: Mr. President, the question isn’t about criminal and drug smugglers. The question was about sexual preference and women.

Answer: In Iran, we don’t have homosexuals, like in your country. We don’t have that in our country. In Iran, we do not have this phenomenon. I don’t know who’s told you that we have it.

[Magiver]

@Marmite_Lover

Why is it that when you mention Iran and Israel so many posters will argue that Iran threatens to wipe Israel off the face of the earth or some other rubbish?

Why do they refuse to accept what was actually said?

OK, I’ll bite, what was “actually said”? Are you referring to Ahmadinejad’s 2005 “World Without Zionism” speech where he said (translated): “The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time”?

[Mince]

@SenorBeef

I’m not sure what the point is here in regards to Americans.

Roberts, like his peer, Alex Jones, wants all Americans, after a few Google searches, YouTube videos, and, of course, Alex Jones radio shows, to believe 9/11 was “an inside job” perpetrated by “a rogue element” of the U.S. Government. That most do not is the motivation, I believe, for the article in the OP. I believe he thinks that 9/11 was a uniquely American tragedy and thus appeals mostly to them.

[PsyXe]

@Magiver

OK, I’ll bite, what was “actually said”? Are you referring to Ahmadinejad’s 2005 “World Without Zionism” speech where he said (translated): “The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time”?

As far I as I can see, yes; he’s claiming that “this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time” is completely different from “Israel must be wiped off the map” and is, indeed a completely friendly and non-violent suggestion :rolleyes:

[Alessan]

I don’t understand. The Israeli government has changed twice since 2005 - why isn’t Ahmadinejad happy?

[JohnT]

@Marmite_Lover

I doubt you are alone in ignorance, it’s just that you stubbornly vocalize it more. Where other nations would keep quiet about things they don’t know American’s don’t and argue.

C’mon, this is a thread where people, in supporting your point, are making arguments about the “American court system” based on their knowledge drawn from television dramas. :rolleyes:

But, yeah, if you want to believe that Americans are the only ones who argue from ignorance, sure, go ahead. I’m sure you’ll sleep better at night.

[JohnT]

@Marmite_Lover

To Finn who cannot let it go:D

The problem you face Finn is you can only rely on English sites for your information. You cannot argue about linguistics when you do not speak or understand Farsi or Arabic. You are relying on a few websites all quoting each other. All of them mention these two so called ‘translators’. These guys are not translators. Their only claim to fame is saying what they said. You do know that both are American educated and lived and studied in the US don’t you?. One’s mother is American.
Now if you instead could read Farsi or Arabic then you would have been able to go onto the Farsi speaking forums and actually get your information from Iranian sources whose language it is. Even you would find it hard to disagree on a Farsi speakers interpretation of his own language, and I can tell you if you had this facility you would see they all disagree with the ‘so called translators’
This is the critical problem with the West. They rely on sites which tell you a load of bullshit, so let me explain it to you so that you are a bit more educated when you come to discuss this again.

This is the quote from Ruhollah Khomeni.

باید از صفحه روزگار محو شود
It say’s “This regime occupying Jerusalem must from the pages of history be erased”

Mahmoud Ahmedinejad was Quoting Ruhollah Khomeni in that infamous speech. It was NOT his own words.

This is the quote from Ahmedinejad.

امام خمینی : باید از صحنه روزگار محو شود

This one say’s “Imam Khomeni says This regime occupying Jerusalem must from the stage of history be erased”

Ahmedinejad actually misquoted Khomeni when he said 'stage’صحنه and not 'page’صفحه, but this is irrelevant as this was cleared up later by his transcriber and the error corrected. Clearly if you are quoting someone it has to be correct and it was corrected quickly after.

Now no where in either quote does it mention 'Israel’or ‘Map’.
When it was found that ‘Israel’ and ‘map’ had been circulated around the world, instead of correcting it the ‘West’ ran with it and have been running ever since with people like you talking rubbish.

There is NO dispute about what the Farsi says. Ask any Persian, and one of the words صفحه is actually taken from the Arabic which in Arabic means also ‘page’.

So ‘wiping Israel off the Map’ was NEVER said. (Well it was by the West) but we cannot believe them can we when the Iranian Farsi speakers and the Arabs agree it was never said?.

It’s a myth.

In fact even MEMRI agreed ‘Israel and Map’ were never mentioned.

To be honest with you and knowing Ahmedinejad’s weird sense of humour he is laughing about this and letting you all ‘run with it’. To him it shows how stupid you are really. He is proving your media are lying to you. He is amazed you all believe it I am sure, as I am, as we are here.

It’s a bit like Obama making a statement and saying. " I ate chicken for dinner last night " and an Iranian reporter quoting him as saying " I ate children for dinner last night ". Then the whole Arab world believing he said ‘children’, then running about for years accusing him of being a cannibal.
What would Obama do but laugh. It’s so ridiculous and that is why Ahmedinejad doesn’t even respond to it. He is I would suspect laughing his head off at Israeli’s, Americans and their allies. This is what happens when Israel has you by the balls and controls your media.

Are you seriously arguing that “wiping them from the pages of history” is substantially different in tone and intent than “wiping them off the map”? And you buttress this argument with a silly analogy about Obama and his eating preferences?

Really?

[Marmite_Lover]

@Magiver

OK, I’ll bite, what was “actually said”? Are you referring to Ahmadinejad’s 2005 “World Without Zionism” speech where he said (translated): “The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time”?

Yes

[Marmite_Lover]

@PsyXe

As far I as I can see, yes; he’s claiming that “this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time” is completely different from “Israel must be wiped off the map” and is, indeed a completely friendly and non-violent suggestion :rolleyes:

If you read it in context he was comparing it to the fall of the USSR.
It does not exist anymore.

You are talking about two languages.

Like say if an American child drops jam all over the floor and his mum say’s…‘Oh I am going to kill you’.
Does that mean the mother IS going to kill the child?
No.

Many things are misinterpreted.

[JohnT]

True, but to support your argument you came up with an analogy that is unbelievable in a real-world setting. Confusing “wiping you from the pages of history” with “wiping you off the face of the map” is understandable as the tone and intent of each statement is roughly equal.

Confusing “I eat chicken” with “I eat children” is not.

[Alessan]

Iran is not my mother.

In the context of the current Iranian-Israeli relationship, we have cause to take their words seriously.

(And incidentally, there are tens, if not hundreds of thousands of Persian Jews living in Israel, including the Minister of Defense in office in 2005. We understand Iran better than you do).

[nachtmusick]

@JohnT

True, but to support your argument you came up with an analogy that is unbelievable in a real-world setting. Confusing “wiping you from the pages of history” with “wiping you off the face of the map” is understandable as the tone and intent of each statement is roughly equal.

Confusing “I eat chicken” with “I eat children” is not.

You ar trying to be accomodating, but not enough. It is never a good idea to try to interpret passion or intent from a translation.

[adhay]

@Sage_Rat

… Are you still beating your wife?

I am not still beating your wife.

I believe the OP is absolutely correct if my experiences in GD are any indication.

The media, esp. cable news, on which a large majority of the electorate depends for information is corporate controlled and consolidated. The result is identical sound bites 24/7 limited to the latest goings on of teabaggers, naughty congressmen’s indiscretions, who’s fucking who in the entertainment industry and the inescapable smorgasbord of consumer shit. Every magazine rack contains dozens of slick accounts of Hollywood’s loves and losts and the latest useless diets and sex tips. Only the names are changed in each issue. Americans are not necessarily stupid, they are wrapped in a media cocoon which precludes any basis for a rational look at things.

[tomndebb]

That however, is true of all countries with a free media.

Based on that, the OP’s complaint should have been, “Debating with People.”
Everything else is simply a silly claim that “Americans” have some unique problems that are not shared by the rest of the world–a point for which no evidence has been presented.

It is little more than Yank bashing and this thread has avoided being moved to its more legitimate home in The BBQ Pit only because I keep hoping that there will be a presentation of some legitimate information.

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

@tomndebb

That however, is true of all countries with a free media.

Based on that, the OP’s complaint should have been, “Debating with People.”
Everything else is simply a silly claim that “Americans” have some unique problems that are not shared by the rest of the world–a point for which no evidence has been presented.

It is little more than Yank bashing and this thread has avoided being moved to its more legitimate home in The BBQ Pit only because I keep hoping that there will be a presentation of some legitimate information.

Obama likes chicken. That’s legit info, right there.

[adhay]

@tomndebb

That however, is true of all countries with a free media.

I assume you were posting in response to mine just above yours.

And I must agree, to a point. After all, the Brits did elect Thatcher.

But even today, I find (only on the net) that Reuters and Al Jazeera, to name a couple, regularly publish articles on aspects of the world scene that the US media somehow “overlooks”.

Case in point. A recent Reuters article on a 2008 poll of US doctors in which 50+% expressed support for a single-payer health care system.

Did that appear anywhere in our media sludge?

[adhay]

@FoieGrasIsEvil

Obama likes chicken. That’s legit info, right there.

Precisely. And knowing that, and how Brad and Angelina are doing, I can easily draw the conclusion that we should not be in Afghanistan.

[Alessan]

@adhay

But even today, I find (only on the net) that Reuters and Al Jazeera, to name a couple, regularly publish articles on aspects of the world scene that the US media somehow “overlooks”.

Just because a foreign news station doesn’t have the same biases as an American, doesn’t mean it doesn’t have biases of its own.

[adhay]

@Alessan

Just because a foreign news station doesn’t have the same biases as an American, doesn’t mean it doesn’t have biases of its own.

Of course not.

But I think that if the fact that several thousand US doctors supported a single-payer HCS had been “allowed” by our media into the recent HC debate, Obama’s “victory” would have had a different flavor. YMMV.