Gyrate
August 28, 2012, 4:05pm
21
**Mandy: **What star sign is he?
Wise Man #2: Capricorn.
Mandy: Capricorn, eh? What are they like?
**Wise Man #2: **He is the son of God, our Messiah.
**Wise Man #1: **King of the Jews.
Mandy: And that’s Capricorn, is it?
Wise Man #3: No, no, that’s just him.
Mandy: Oh, I was going to say, otherwise there’d be a lot of them.
Wulabo:
Astrology is a tricky one. Yes, there is a great deal of what you can call ‘hokum’ surrounding it, but one should be careful against throwing the baby out with the bath water. The daily write ups in the paper? Rubbish of course. But to say that human beings aren’t affected by the movements and changes in the universe around us goes too far in my opinion.
Take the moon for instance, which figures into astrology. The moon clearly influences life on earth to an enormous degree. From control of the tides (and keep in mind we humans are 65% water) to changes in animal behavior (and yes we are animals as well). Then there is the Sun. It cycles through magnetic radiation patterns since its surface is molten and it’s poles rotate faster than it’s equator. The impact of this radiation can be seen in the northern lights and we know that radiation can have dramatic effects on a developing fetus. What’s your sign? Is there something to it…perhaps. So, if we agree that there is some scientific evidence for the sun and moon then could the gravity of nearby planets have an influence as well? What about distant stars? Their effects would be far less than our sun’s but could possibly have some influence.
As someone noted above, the signs of the zodiac relate to the precession of the equinoxes. We know now that it is a result of the earth’s tilted axis, but really the twelve constellations were just markers in the sky chosen by ancients to describe the phenomena they observed but didn’t fully understand. It’s the earliest method of keeping time (or is it just coincidence that your watch has twelve points arranged in a circle?). So, to sum up, while Astrologists and daily columns are BS the ancient pseudo science of astrology is based on observation, and careful observation at that. In many ways it was the forerunner of science and it should be tested not tossed out.
Already tested and tossed out:
Finally, astrology is probably the most widely practiced superstition and most popular Tooth Fairy science in the world today. Nevertheless, there are many who defend astrology by pointing out how accurate professional horoscopes are.
Astrology “works,” it is said, but what does that mean? Basically, to say astrology works means that there are a lot of satisfied customers. There are a lot of satisfied customers because thanks to subjective validation, it is easy to shoehorn any event to fit a chart. To say astrology “works” does not mean that astrology is accurate in predicting human behavior or events to a degree significantly greater than mere chance. There are many satisfied customers who believe that their horoscope accurately describes them and that their astrologer has given them good advice. Such evidence does not prove astrology so much as it demonstrates the Forer effect and confirmation bias. Good astrologers give good advice, but that does not validate astrology. (They also make ambiguous claims like the oracle of Delphi who told Croesus before he attacked Persia: “If you cross the river, a great empire will be destroyed.” So armed, Croesus attacked, resulting in the destruction of his own empire.)
There have been several studies that have shown that people will use selective thinking to make any chart they are given fit their preconceived notions about themselves and their charts. Many of the claims made about signs and personalities are vague and would fit many people under many different signs. Even professional astrologers, most of whom have nothing but disdain for sun sign astrology, can’t pick out a correct horoscope reading at better than a chance rate. Yet, astrology continues to maintain its popularity, despite the fact that there is scarcely a shred of scientific evidence in its favor. Even the former First Lady of the United States, Nancy Reagan, and her husband, Ronald, consulted an astrologer while he was the leader of the free world, demonstrating once again that astrologers have more influence than the stars do.
I’ve banned the OP for ignoring staff instructions about his annoying colors and fonts. I’ll leave this open for now if people want to discuss astrology in general.
Wulabo
August 28, 2012, 4:31pm
24
“Correlation is not causality” Great quote from your link - I may steal that line, thanks. As for the rest of the article, I can’t find much to disagree with as it attacks and debunks the elements of astrology I agree are hokum; specifically divination. No, what I was trying to get at, and maybe I didn’t get my point across well enough, was that there may be a kernel or two of truth amid all the swirling silliness. The examples I gave of lunar sway and solar radiation certainly merit consideration IMO. I think the observations of the ancients were accurate but they lacked the knowledge of the world to reach the true cause and so we get a lot of fluff and BS.
It’s similar to religion in some ways. There, not unlike astrology, you have groups of people who over the course of thousands of years have lost sight of the initial observation or thought and built a lot of ritualistic pomp and circumstance around it obscuring the initial intent. But does that mean we throw it all out the window?
The moon may hold sway over large bodies of water(oceans have tides, lakes don’t), but a pencil on a desk in the same room has more of a gravitational influence on you than the moon.
Wulabo:
“Correlation is not causality” Great quote from your link - I may steal that line, thanks. As for the rest of the article, I can’t find much to disagree with as it attacks and debunks the elements of astrology I agree are hokum; specifically divination. No, what I was trying to get at, and maybe I didn’t get my point across well enough, was that there may be a kernel or two of truth amid all the swirling silliness. The examples I gave of lunar sway and solar radiation certainly merit consideration IMO. I think the observations of the ancients were accurate but they lacked the knowledge of the world to reach the true cause and so we get a lot of fluff and BS.
It’s similar to religion in some ways. There, not unlike astrology, you have groups of people who over the course of thousands of years have lost sight of the initial observation or thought and built a lot of ritualistic pomp and circumstance around it obscuring the initial intent. But does that mean we throw it all out the window?
Like Tim Minchin said: "do you know what we call alternative medicine that is found to work?
MEDICINE."
The observations that are still useful from that era are called ASTRONOMY. And Medicine deals with any radiation effects detected on earth.
mlees
August 28, 2012, 4:44pm
27
Chimera:
Dial back the font.
As for the “alignment”, it’s called Precession and it’s no great mystery or cosmic event. Every day’s “alignment” happens only once every 26,000 years. Only, the stars move in the mean time, so it’s never exactly the same twice.
“Earth goes through one such complete precessional cycle in a period of approximately 26,000 years or 1° every 72 years, during which the positions of stars will slowly change in both equatorial coordinates and ecliptic longitude. Over this cycle, Earth’s north axial pole moves from where it is now, within 1° of Polaris, in a circle around the ecliptic pole, with an angular radius of about 23.5 degrees.”
“The precession of Earth’s axis was later explained by Newtonian physics. Being an oblate spheroid, the Earth has a nonspherical shape, bulging outward at the equator. The gravitational tidal forces of the Moon and Sun apply torque to the equator, attempting to pull the equatorial bulge into the plane of the ecliptic, but instead causing it to precess.”
Not only that, but aren’t the stars themselves moving in relation to each other (and their position within the local stellar neighborhood)?
I assume the constellation Leo as it looks today won’t quite look the same 26,000 years from now.
Okay, but it won’t be nearly as much fun.
mlees
August 28, 2012, 4:48pm
29
Wulabo:
Astrology is a tricky one. Yes, there is a great deal of what you can call ‘hokum’ surrounding it, but one should be careful against throwing the baby out with the bath water. The daily write ups in the paper? Rubbish of course. But to say that human beings aren’t affected by the movements and changes in the universe around us goes too far in my opinion.
Besides the fact that astrology just doesn’t work, your post is full of logical inconsistencies. First, obviously we are affected by the universe, which is everything around us. But that is far from saying we are affected by either the positions of the planets or the stars.
Some examples, please? Are you saying that there are significant tidal effects in our cells? While I can believe that animal behavior is affected in some way by the different amounts of light emitted by the moon over a month, I doubt there is any gravitational effect. I can compute the force of the moon if you’d like.
Uh, the sun is not liquid. It is a mite too hot for that.
The impact or radiation can be seen by the fact that we see - light is radiation also. What is magnetic radiation exactly? Are you perhaps confusing nuclear radiation with electromagnetic radiation?
What’s your sign? Is there something to it…perhaps. So, if we agree that there is some scientific evidence for the sun and moon then could the gravity of nearby planets have an influence as well? What about distant stars? Their effects would be far less than our sun’s but could possibly have some influence.
I’d have to check the numbers, but I’d expect living near a mountain would have more gravitational influence than that of any planet. And how does gravity affect our personalities again? Anyhow, since you phrased these things as questions, the answers are no and hell, no.
As someone noted above, the signs of the zodiac relate to the precession of the equinoxes. We know now that it is a result of the earth’s tilted axis, but really the twelve constellations were just markers in the sky chosen by ancients to describe the phenomena they observed but didn’t fully understand. It’s the earliest method of keeping time (or is it just coincidence that your watch has twelve points arranged in a circle?). So, to sum up, while Astrologists and daily columns are BS the ancient pseudo science of astrology is based on observation, and careful observation at that. In many ways it was the forerunner of science and it should be tested not tossed out.
Are you aware that the Babylonians used a base 60 system? That explains why there are 12 hours on your watch. (Except that in Europe everyone seems to use a 24 hour system.) Yes, equatorial constellations were useful for keeping time, but that is about where their utility ends. Remember, astrology began when everyone thought the stars were relatively close to us. Doesn’t make a lot of sense considering their real distance, does it?
To convince anyone of anything astrology would have to make specific predictions about what you would expect for people with a given birth date, time and location. It does, and they have all failed.
Wulabo:
“Correlation is not causality” Great quote from your link - I may steal that line, thanks. As for the rest of the article, I can’t find much to disagree with as it attacks and debunks the elements of astrology I agree are hokum; specifically divination. No, what I was trying to get at, and maybe I didn’t get my point across well enough, was that there may be a kernel or two of truth amid all the swirling silliness. The examples I gave of lunar sway and solar radiation certainly merit consideration IMO. I think the observations of the ancients were accurate but they lacked the knowledge of the world to reach the true cause and so we get a lot of fluff and BS.
It’s similar to religion in some ways. There, not unlike astrology, you have groups of people who over the course of thousands of years have lost sight of the initial observation or thought and built a lot of ritualistic pomp and circumstance around it obscuring the initial intent. But does that mean we throw it all out the window?
That there is solar radiation is obvious, and that it affects the climate of the planet is also obvious. How is this related to astrology in any way?
I have heard it described that the Ages last for 2000 years. The current (or one we left several years ago) age was the Age of Pisces, i.e. the fish or the Age of Christianity. Prior to that was the Age of Taurus, the bull or the Age or Animism/animal sacrifice. Now we’re on the the Age of Aquarius, water or whatever the Hell that brings.
What do the entrails of some random animal have to do with me and what I’m on about?
Like God or the Universe specifically formed this animals internal organs in the exact pattern to tell me something; knowing I’d be walking by at that moment, doing exactly what the pattern was supposed to advise me on, and I’d just happen to go “Hey, let’s gut that animal and read it’s bits”?
How predeterministic.
And how utterly evil on the part of that God or Universe.
Can we gut Bob and get the same answers? He’s an annoying twit, no one will mind.
hajario:
I have heard it described that the Ages last for 2000 years. The current (or one we left several years ago) age was the Age of Pisces, i.e. the fish or the Age of Christianity. Prior to that was the Age of Taurus, the bull or the Age or Animism/animal sacrifice. Now we’re on the the Age of Aquarius, water or whatever the Hell that brings.
The really stupid thing is that Aquarius (meaning “Water Bearer”), with the symbol of waves, is considered an AIR SIGN.
mlees:
Not only that, but aren’t the stars themselves moving in relation to each other (and their position within the local stellar neighborhood)?
I assume the constellation Leo as it looks today won’t quite look the same 26,000 years from now.
Correct.
Because they are so very far away, it will take thousands of lifetimes to see significant changes in the star patterns. But, over time, they will change. Because of the motions of the stars within it, for example, the handle of the Big Dipper will, in about 50,000 years, appear significantly more bent than it is today (see figure at left).
Constellations: Frequently Asked Questions
Once again-the larger the body of water, the more influence the moon has on it. Because of the distance involved, there are millions of things around you that have more gravitational influence on you than the moon.
Brad_Watson_Miami:
I AM more than a Christian,I AM Omni-religious and a scientist who has discovered at least 7 paradigm-shifting ‘beyond Einstein theories’. I presented a one-page-paper/poster at the NASA Conference Missions for Exoplanets 2010-2020 in Pasadena, CA April 21-23, 2009 http://exep.jpl.nasa.gov/exep_exoMtgPosters.cfm
You all should really check out his paper, which is linked to on that page (the one about earth like planets at the bottom).
I bet the NASA scientists at this conference just included that paper for laughs. On the other hand, it reads better than any of the other materials…
One thing I would had like the OP to reply to was the fact that even Astrologers do not agree on where the heck the Age of Aquarius does begin.
An astrological age is a time period which, according to astrology, parallels major changes in the development of human society, culture, history, and politics. There are twelve astrological ages corresponding to the twelve zodiacal signs in western astrology. One cycle of the twelve astrological ages is called a Great Year, comprising 25,772 solar years, at the end of which another cycle begins.
Some astrologers believe that during a given age, some events are directly caused or indirectly in...
The Age of Aquarius (The Aquarian age)
Timeframes
In 1928, at the Conference of the International Astronomical Union (IAU) in Leiden, the Netherlands, the edges of the 88 official constellations became defined in astronomical terms. The edge established between Pisces and Aquarius locates the beginning of the Aquarian Age around the year 2600.
The Austrian astronomer, Professor Hermann Haupt,[40] examined the question of when the Age of Aquarius begins in an article published in 1992 by the Austrian Academy of Science: with the German title “Der Beginn des Wassermannzeitalters, eine astronomische Frage?” (“The Start of the Aquarian Age, an Astronomical Question?”). Based on the boundaries accepted by IAU in 1928, Haupt’s article investigates the start of the Age of Aquarius by calculating the entry of the spring equinox point over the parallel cycle (d = - 4°) between the constellations Pisces and Aquarius and reaches, using the usual formula of precession (Gliese, 1982), the year 2595. However Haupt concludes:
"Though it cannot be expected that astrologers will follow the official boundaries of the constellations, there will be an attempt to calculate the entry of the spring equinox point into the constellation of Aquarius." ...
"As briefly has been shown, the results and methods of astrology in many areas, such as concerning the Aquarian age, are controversial on their own and cannot be called scientific because of the many esoteric elements."[41]
Zodiacal 30 degrees:
Neil Mann interpretation: begins AD 2150.
Dane Rudhyar's interpretation states that the Age of Aquarius will begin in AD 2062.
Nicholas Campion in The Book of World Horoscopes indicates that he has collected over 90 dates provided by researchers for the start of the Age of Aquarius and these dates have a range of over 2,000 years commencing in the 15th century AD.[42] The range of dates for the possible start of the Aquarian age range from 1447 to 3621.
Constellation boundary year:
Shephard Simpson interpretation: begins in ca. AD 2680.
Hermann Haupt interpretation begins in ca. AD 2595.
Michael Sidi interpretation begins in ca. AD 2720.
IMHO the best sign that we are in front of pseudoscience is when followers do not agree on even very basic items. BTW notice that when **Astronomy **does take a look at when that event should take place based on the true positions of the constellations the age of Aquarius is 600 years off of what several astrologers in the popular media have told us before.
Czarcasm:
A word, please? The different sized fonts and the various colors aren’t really helping you here. Conversing with others on the message board is not the same as standing on a street corner holding a large cardboard sign. Nobody here is attracted by or impressed by how a post looks-they are impressed by what a post says .
The fonts and colors are the least of his worries. Except that he got banned for them, which I found rather strange. Whatever.
The OP must be a Taurus . . .
My pencil is not generating tides in the harbor outside (which is 250 feet from my desk), but the moon is.