Deception Gets You Laid - How Bad Is This?

Great Debates
1

There’s an old joke about the beautiful young girl who’s drawn into a conversation with a stranger on a bus. She confides that she’s a nymphomaniac with an uncontrollable attraction to Jewish cowboys. At that point, the stranger says, “We really haven’t been introduced, so allow me to introduce myself: I’m Bucky Goldstein.”

Joking aside, a couple of threads lately have touched upon the aspect of misperception or deception between people that have had sex, with sometimes tragic consequences when the misapprehension is brought to light.

I’m curious what the community attitude here is towards that sort of thing in general. What’s the culpability of the man who claims to be a doctor or a lawyer (or a cop or a fireman, for that matter) to score a one-night stand? How about the man that claims to be single when he’s married, or wealthy when he’s just driving a rented Jag? Or the twin brother that impersonates his brother to score with the brother’s erstwhile girlfriend? I knew a guy in college from Fredericksburg, Virginia, that had never set foot outside the US but learned an English accent and wore Union Jack T-shirts; he claimed it never failed. How about the guy that claims to love “Sleepless in Seattle,” but secretly can’t stand it?

Obviously all of these are very different – but where does it cross the line into out-and-out WRONG?

I once heard a “women’s consciousness” speaker claim that even the most tiny of such deceptions amounted to rape, the rationale apparently being that without full knowledge and disclosure, the sex was tainted. This seems an extreme position.

On the other hand, we’ve discussed the cases of pre- and post-op transgendered persons - do they really have an obligation to reveal their birth chromosones to a sexual partner? What about a person who is not transgendered - that is, doesn’t self-identify as a woman, for example, but dressed as one in an effort to seduce a straight man?

In general – where is the need-to-disclose line crossed?

  • Rick
2

All of them wrong.

I see the point of the “women’s consciousness” speaker. Rape is sexual intercourse without consent. When deceptions are needed to obtain such consents, it means without deceptions, consents would not be given. So, in a sense, deception is the same as violence or drugs - to remove resistance.

While I am not of this position, I still see using deceptions to get laid is wrong. If you can’t get it being honest, maybe you need to look elsewhere.

Is using deception to relieve somebody of his money wrong?

3

One could always use the argument:
[ul] “She wanted to be decepted.” [/ul]

4

I see nothing wrong with using any type of deception to get laid. If a woman is willing to sleep with someone based on purly superficial qualities like money, career or political beliefs than they set themselves up to be decieved. Is it decepition to uses someones greed against them to relieve them of their money?

Rape is an act of violence and is very diferent from coercing or decieving a girl into sex.
Maxim had an interesting article on pretending to be your own twin brother in order hook up with your girlfriends friends. Is that wrong?

5

I think you mean “deceived.” You’re right, “one could use the argument.” But I hope you don’t mean to use it. It’s like saying that a rape victim was asking for it.

Actually, I agree with the “women’s consciousness” speaker. Deceiving a woman in order to have sex with her is no different morally than using a date rape drug. I have no respect for men who lie to women in order to take advantage of them. And although there is a line legally between forceable or drug-facilitated rape and persuasion with lies, I think morally it’s a thin one.

Geezer

6

Calling it “Rape” is of course, bullshit.

Rape is physical; everything else attempts to stretch the definition as a power play.

That said, stretching your personality and conforming to your intended’s wishes can be benificial. Sometimes by trying to meet someone’s needs you can grow as a person, believe it or not!

On the third hand, outright deception will always blow up in your face eventually; I put it in a category of things offer a short-term gain (getting laid) over a certain long term loss (your reputation and self-esteem). Sometimes you’ll need to make that tradeoff. Perhaps you’ve got excessive reputation, and not enough sex; that’ll hurt your quality of life, too.

Only you can decide if it’s worth it.

7

Is there still nothing wrong if a woman gets a man to have sex with her by deceiving him into thinking she doesn’t have a penis when she really does?

8

Oh no! “Bricker meet Justhink; Justhink, meet Bricker”

I’ll try to keep my words brief on this.

"Calling it “Rape” is of course, bullshit.

Rape is physical; everything else attempts to stretch the definition as a power play."

Sex is physical. So is talking, smiling etc… As Urban Ranger noted, it is an issue of consent.
If you stated that rape was an act of physical aggression, you’d still be up a creek; as aggression is implied lack of consent or transparency. I equate rape and pedophelia as the same things - in that one is taking advantage of knowledge in an opportunistic means - a person is physically lacking something which would alter their choice in the matter. It is a power play in regards to conginitive age issues and the use of undisclosed intent.

I have stated several times on this board that consent with females is impossible without the aid of prostitution to account for the difference in cognitive age. Females have a counter-intelligent sexual selection process to the degree that they exchange it for personality. Personality is only evidenced when a lack of it is being utilized (people contradict themselves to attack the pattern seeking mechanism of the brain). It is the difference between objectifying only the body or objectifying the mind and the body. One of the major factors that plays into this imbalance is that males cannot be raped heterosexually; as their selection process is primarily visual. It is MUCH more intricite than this, but I concur with the “yes” vote.

“”“I see nothing wrong with using any type of deception to get laid.”""

Excepting that it negates the purpose of the act to such a degree as to logically objectify both mind and matter to inaction; which negates ones purpose for existing in a broad spectrum. It is a counter-intelligent application of logic to meet ones needs without the logical foundation required to declare the needs - a virtual person.

“”""“If a woman is willing to sleep with someone based on purely superficial qualities like money, career or political beliefs than they set themselves up to be decieved. Is it decepition to uses someones greed against them to relieve them of their money?”""

I disagree on the money aspect, but not wholly relevant IMO.
If a woman requires these aspects, then they clearly need to assert this, rather than using personality judgements. A person with a significantly higher contradiction frequency over time will quite readily level the effect of money in this selection process.
“”"“One could always use the argument:
“She wanted to be decepted.””""

Umm… yeah, I suppose this is the argument people use when they produce offspring? “They did want to be born you know… I didn’t have a choice or ethical obligation to consider here.”

-Justhink

9

Oh, another amendment to my ‘summary’.
Women use sincerity as a selection quality. Sincerity is evidenced in their selection process as being a property of slow proccessing speeds on the male end on the spectrum. A male gets to ‘declare’ sincerity to the degree that they are ignorant of these control mechanisms in regards to personality and how it is used to force action by placing existential pressure in a covert means.

-Justhink

10

Ha! Another amendment!

Since males cannot be hetero-sexually raped; the logical scenario’s are such:

Immediate transparent intermediary in the form of commodity and/or capital.

Immediate request for sex (which on the male side renders very close to zero percent acception rate - while the female side renders a rate that cuts through the statistical attraction ratings – somewhere in the 50-70th percentile range).

Basically, males are required to have an additional set above and beyond the actual request for sex – in order for it to not be rape, the request is “Will you have sex for a car or sex for this money?”.

If the female agrees without the commodity, all the better - that would be integrity on their end. Any insult in regards to objectification on the female end is 100% power play counter-intelligence games. Males cannot be raped hetero-sexually; this plays a tremendous role in the logical application of consent for either side.

-Justhink

11

“”""""“On the third hand, outright deception will always blow up in your face eventually”""""""

This can be calculated against, as stages of cognitive progression in regards to processing speed will eventually equal out through sheer longevity ------ BUT as I started, this can be calculated against in regards to the fact that people don’t live forever.

Death and suicide play temendous roles in power plays – your name isn’t mud until you’re dead, so what’s the point of playing square?

-Justhink

12

Agree that people who do these things deserve no respect, disagree that it’s even close to rape. Somebody who has been given a date rape drug has been physically violated; somebody who has been lied to has not. Besides, the deceivee is presumably free to verify the information and responsible for the consequences if he or she makes the choice not to do so.

I’d also argue that it’s very hard to deceive a reasonably intelligent adult who doesn’t choose to play along with the deception. If you don’t bother to check whether your sexual partner has a penis – and anybody concealing a secret that big would surely send up some red flags with their behavior – you’ve just got to expect surprises. (To be fair, most of the examples in the OP are slightly less easy to verify – but I’d imagine that an hour or two of casual conversation would expose all but the most well-rehearsed fake doctors or Englishmen. Heck, a genuine Sleepless in Seattle fan would probably have no problem spotting a fake one. Married people, in my experience, invariably give themselves away sooner or later; if you choose to sleep with them sooner, it’s your business and you accept the risks.)

None of this makes the deceivers any less scummy, of course, but I can’t see it as being in the same category as rape at all.

Oh, and Justhink:

Impossible for you, perhaps. Other men usually grow up.

13

Definitely not in the same league as the use of physical force, or even the threat of physical force. That’s not to say anyone who lies for sex should be proud, but there is nothing in lying that precludes the person from making a choice. I don’t even see that genders matter in this discussion.

Don’t we all moderate our personalities in relationships, sexual or otherwise? Particularly in the opening stages of a relationship, honesty is never a black-or-white thing; you might pretend to show interest in conversational topics that might otherwise bore you rigid; you might describe your job in terms that either play it up or play it down. Where’s the line between that kind of minor deception and it being something morally unacceptable?

14

Justhink needs a new personal definition of the word 'brief".

On the topic at hand: fantasy is a large part of foreplay and sex. If an American woman is aroused by the thought of nailing a Englishman (complete with accent and T-shirt) it’s a man’s duty to make her dreams come true, dammit!

He’s nobly sacrificing his identity to create her fantasy. I salute you, sir!

15

“”"""“He’s nobly sacrificing his identity to create her fantasy. I salute you, sir!”"""""

People wander the streets to take the existential hits of serial killers to protect idiots like you, so they can have their fantasies met for even one evening. I suppose you salute them?

-Justhink

16

“”"""“He’s nobly sacrificing his identity to create her fantasy. I salute you, sir!”"""""

People wander the streets to take the existential hits from serial killers to protect idiots like you, so they can have their fantasies met for even one evening. I suppose you salute them?

-Justhink

17

““Impossible for you, perhaps. Other men usually grow up.””"

Taking off for a few hours, so will not address your points in depth. This however is a perfect example of an unuspported and unexplained phrasing that plays the mind reading game - critical towards hooking the indentured system. This type of patterning will certainly lead to a productive male sex-life. Granted I did that same thing to Bryan above; yet in the context of making this point to you - I ran the CI routine of calling Bryan an idiot for not doing this; and placed a vagueness on ‘they’ in the second part so that it can mean either the killer or the person doing the act.

It obviously represents the killers desire fulfillment … and the sacrifice to take the hit for those who don’t have a clue as to the rational application of certain systems in regards to the world at large.

I’d love to see you define ‘grown up’ here.

(getting playful and cocky lately, but NOT to real people in my direct circle of influence — I can run my replies so thatthey state exactly the same thing and you wouldn’t give a rats ass to reply at all – there are DEFINATELY techniques used to dominate the personality given lack of knowledge - including the pressure applied now to consider my entire line as a bait rather than an actual rationale that has axiomic basis)

-Justhink

18

I was thinking along the lines that deception is always wrong, until I read this:

Now I’m not so sure. If both parties believe that this is just a one night stand, then who ever plays the game best gets the bed prize.

OTOH, I have a problem getting my mind around the idea of a one night stand. I’ve never done it and I don’t think I could. So the idea of deception to get laid doesn’t fit either.

19

I meant to include the following scenario in my OP, but forgit it by the time I actually wrote the thing.

For those that haven’t seen it, USA Network (and now ABC) have a TV detective series called “Monk.” Tony Shaloub stars as a brilliant detective afflicted with OCD after the death of his wife; Bitty Schram is Sharona, his long-suffering assistant. One evening, Sharona’s on a first date with a man and Monk briefly joins them. In the space of five minutes, Monk notes several inconsistencies in the man’s stories and unmasks him - he’s not really a neurosurgeon, or whatever he was claiming to be. Humiliated, the man leaves… and Sharona is furious at Monk. Puzzled, Monk explains that he was doing her a favor; the man was lying to her. Sharona retorts, “Everyone lies a little on a first date! Who cares?”

Obviously, we should not look to fictional characters for moral authority for any particular proposition… but…

20

A relationship is what I am after, and if it leads to sex, that’s terrific, but sex without a relationship is not appealing to me. A relationship requires honesty. (I’m a guy, BTW.)