Techie:
Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about parents who have their children’s ears pierced?
Andros, honestly? I think a child should “want” to have his or her ears pierced. My mom didn’t want me to but I persuaded her at age 13. Later (at 15 then 16 both on Columbus day of my sophomore year and my junior year) I did two of them (in my left ear) with a safety pin and ice, so I have three in one ear and one in the other.
It’s one thing if it’s for the health of an animal or child but it’s another thing entirely when it’s more cosmetic in nature.
When I was growing up, my parents had two cats, one declawed, the other one not (she was a stray we picked up, and too old to have the proceedure done) They both spent a lot of their time outside, and, if anything, the declawed cat was more aggressive and better at bringing down prey than the one with claws.
I guess, in my mind, what it comes down to is, the cat belonged to my parents, and it was their decision whether to declaw it or not. I never really worried about whether the cat liked it or not…it was only a cat.
Stofsky sez:
<<…as to the analogy of trimming fingernails, can I get some clippers and cut the claws back behind the flesh? Or will that cause some damage…>>
Yes, it’s called “the quick”, you shouldn’t cut too far back on a cat, or dog’s toe nails/claws. It actually takes some training to get it done effectively and quickly. But indoor animals should have this form of maintenance, since their nails would normally trim down outdoors, naturally.
Once I trim my cat’s claws they can’t claw anything. Period, pencils down. Now (as I’ve said) this isn’t for everyone, especially if you’re adopting a street cat, set in it’s ways, and such. Trimming a cat’s claws should begin very early (if your able to start with a kitten). But as I said, I think most people believe cats have very little (to zero) maintenance, other than feeding and/or cleaning a litter box. That’s not true. Trimming the nails, helping it shed hair, groooming it, ears, eyes, et.
<<…That’s as false as comparing claws to the first joint of human fingers… >>
I said that? I never said that. Nor do I think I implied that. I have said trim the cat’s claws, if possible. And I’ve been strick about riding the fence between both positions. I’ve stated (too many times) that it’s up to each and every individual to determine what’s best for ALL (in their environment). I’ve been quick to not make blanket statements.
I hope my posts are not invisible.
Still, I do have my own opinion on the matter, and (again, as I’ve said) I side with gadgetgirl, and others, that it’s not necessary. It’s not the “HOW”, but the “WHY”.
But then, the “WHY” is different for each household, isn’t it? Thus, I don’t see what all the fuss is about. But I’m not tossing stones at anyone, and I’m riding the fence…which means I’m literally invisible, since I’m not stirring up the pot.
The price of being objective.
I still say get the ostrich. They kick ass.
Jet Black
Oops…I meant to say, once my cat’s claws are trimmed they can’t SCRATCH anything (not “can’t claw anything”). Even with trimmed claws they can grasp the cat toys. It’s just they don’t do any damage in the process.
In fact, this is when I have the most fun with my male cat who likes to claw at me. But when he’s trimmed down his swats and swings are without edge. We wrestle, and have fun.
Jet Black
Stofsky sez:
<<…seems to claw stuff up more after a trimming in order to sharpen its claws. AFAIK, that’s a large part of why cats claw. YMMV. >>
Actually, cats claws are already sharp. They shed (sheath) their claws, as they continue to grow. Haven’t you found those discarded old claws imbedded in your furniture, or carpet? They pull/shed/whatever it off, revealing the newer sharper claws that are constantly growing. Scratching and stretching the tendons of the claws helps to discard the outter layer. Your furniture isn’t making the cat’s claws sharper, its helping the cat get rid of the old, dull claws.
As for your individual cat going about “more” with the clawing, well, that’s your cat…as you said, it was in “your experience”. I can understand that. Perhaps the cat is just trying to get his claws back to snuff in a faster fashion. Hah! Smart cat.
Still, my furniture is safe when the cat is trimmed.
Jet Black
nope on the vegan thing, I had chicken for dinner.
go figure that one out…
ooh, ooh, should we start another thread on that one???
sorry about my abesence from this thread, I’m on holidays at the moment and I was spending time with my wonderful husband and loving kitty. bad GG.
I’m with Coldfire on this…we get a pet because we want company or a friend or just generally enjoy having this kind of animal around. We have no right to alter this pet to our liking. If we want a pet, we have to adapt our behaviour and living arrangements to the pet and not the other way around. If one is not willing to do this - no problem, but don’t get a pet.
I have kept cats since I was 16 and never had any problems with them scratching. Sure, they will try when they are young, but proper training and attractive “legal” scratching areas will do wonders.
I am not saying that there are no cats who can not be trained - or who have not been trained when young and now won’t learn anymore. But there must be other solutions than just hacking their claws off. No matter how painlessly it is done, it is wrong in principle and it causes problems to the cat when climbing and jumping. If you have a cat that causes damage to your furniture it is time to re-think your priorities or make it an outdoor cat (if possible and necessary) or find another solution.
It is a bit easier for me to believe in this because the argument “If a scratching cat can not be trained it will not be adopted and put to sleep” does not apply where I live.
Where I live it is not allowed to de-claw cats, cut dog’s tails or ears off or put to sleep a healthy pet just because it has no owner and nobody wants it. It is also illegal here to breed pets in variations that cause harm to the pet (e.g. cats without fur). I wish they would go a bit further and also forbid breeds like extreme Persians and bulldogs who can’t breathe right and suffer due to the form of their head.
I was unaware of the fact that de-clawing was common practice in other countries until I met an American girl who had brought her de-clawed cat from the States. Lately I have heard of a guy in Canada who bought a Weimaraner and later had a vet cut (or remove) its vocal chords because the barking got on his nerves (the poor dog was probably going crazy with boredom, since Weimaraners are hunting dogs that need to work).
It is strange that things are so different in countries even though they belong to the same “civilised Western” part of the world.
Okay, it’s late, I need to go to bed but this thread has me thinking too much.
When is it okay for us to do certain medical procedures on our animals without drawing the line, as I quoted above with regards to the Humane Society of the US’s understanding?
Can we, as owners and those that love our pets really know when pain or suffering is too much for our beloved pet?
In Sept of 2000 I felt it best to put my cat, Sweet Sammy From the South, down via euthaniasia. I could only be there then they drugged him, I couldn’t be there when they actually gave him the lethal dose to “put him out of his misery.” Yet we are sitting here and debating whether or not declawing a cat a is cruel or okay.
So I posted some cites that state it’s cruel and unusual punishment, if you will, but I can’t see where if it benefits us solely that declawing a cat is beneficial for the cat. It might save a couch or two but why would anyone want to purposely put a cat through that? Again I am going off my own knowledge and knowing that what I was told is true. God why?
Our animals are there for us in so many situations, when no other human can be there, when all you want is a little love, all you need is for a being to be okay with your stupid action. Then we, as humans think it’s okay to rip out parts of our feline friends.
It makes me sick. Your feline friend will hopefully get better over time but it’s such a part of them. I can’t believe that some of you think it’s okay to declaw a cat, I can’t, I just can’t.
If they are sick get help, if they are in need of procreating then snip the need (given so many animals that are killed each year because of over population) but why, why would you take away an important part of who they are? Why would you? It’s more than just a matter of their claws, they do get beneficial stretching and excercise with their claws.
It has been said they can be trained, and if you doubt it, then get a fish or a gerbil. They can. My cats learned to use the damned scratching posts, my Sammy loved them both (the scratching posts) much and would scratch the fuck out of them. My woodwork and futons have been spared. If you can’t circumvent your cat from fucking up your furniture or your house then don’t have a cat or get one that can understand basic commands.
Both of my cats, indoor, were, are wonderful beings. In fact I am getting another kitty this January to add to my family. Since Sammy has been gone, my world has been less one beautiful and strong cat. I can only hope my new cat will adapt to my household like my Niki and Kodi have.
Do you not understand the idea of a joke? Should I have stuck a smiley in there? Look. I’m a student, with a budget to match. I have crappy furniture. My cat is free to scratch it as much as he likes, but he actually prefers to go for the wallpaper and doorframes and such, the cost of fixing which will come out of my pet deposit. Part of me finds this highly amusing, as it’s such a catly thing to do, and the other part has invested in a spray bottle.
OMG, did you even read any of my posts? They don’t do it that way anymore! I would not have had it done it that was the only way to declaw a cat.
If your vet tells you the only way to declaw a cat is to remove the end toe joint, find another vet, because he’s very mis-informed. They don’t do it that way anymore, okay?
My cats have their entire toe joint! They came home the very next day from the declawing (can’t call it surgery, since no flesh was cut), and were jumping off the furniture and chasing each other as usual, that same day! They had no bandages!
Salem, my very aggressive clawer, used to get on my lap to knead. She would use her claws a little, which of course hurt me. What kind of relationship is that, to have her express her love, and I respond by shoving her off my lap, yelling, “Ouch, ouch, stop!” ? Isn’t it better that I have given her a loving home, where she can knead without hurting me? Where I’m not constantly mad at her for scratching up all the furniture and door frames?
Again, my cats do not go out. I had only the front claws done. They still have their back claws.
My vet (and other vets) recommend keeping cats inside. Cats that go out are more likely to be attacked by other animals, get hit by cars, run away, and are exposed to more diseases. Indoor-only cats live longer and are less prone to disease. I could turn this around and say those who let their cats run free are cruel.
You want to know what’s pissing me off about your argument, gadgetgirl? Well I’ll tell you anyway… it’s this stuff–
My first reaction after reading those posts is to think, ‘What? And I don’t care for my cat? Up yours…’.
But after thinking about it, it seems to me you’re saying, or implying, that by not having your cat declawed, you’re feeling like you’re being persecuted, or somesuch thing.
Huh?
I don’t think anyone in here is telling you you’re wrong for not having your cat declawed, quite the contrary. They, or myself, are saying that the choice is yours and deal with it. You feel it’s inhumane? Don’t do it then. You feel it isn’t inhumane and is a safe alternative to other methods? Fine. Do it.
But you take this stance of ‘I hate declawing. I love my cat. I must be so bad for loving my precious then.’.
Give me a fucking break. And give me a fucking break for pulling that shit right after you rail and rip on those that either have or are considering getting their cat declawed. Fucking bullshit.
I don’t know what kind of argument style that is, or how it’s supposed to support your stance, or even if it’s was you intended, but when you add these, ‘I’m so sorry that I love my kitty, guys’ lines, it pisses me off.
To use a human analogy, declawing a cat is essentially the same as having not just your fingernails removed, but the entire top knuckle of each finger (from here).
[sub]Warning. This site has some pictures on it that, while not obscene, can be pretty unnerving. Consider yourself warned.[/sub]
[Edited by Coldfire on 12-04-2001 at 09:14 AM]
Dammit. Can I get someone to fix the link for me? Thanks.
Let’s face it, I am a savage human…
My cat is declawed and spaded.
I have been known to keep a bird in a cage and clip its wings.
I eat a lot of meat and as such I am indirectly responsible for killing birds, fish, and mammals.
I consume milk products and eggs from animals kept in captivity.
I have no qualms about wearing my leather coat this winter.
I patronize zoos, circuses, and aquariums where animals are kept in captivity for my enjoyment.
I purchase products without looking if they are “cruelty free” or “dolphin safe”.
I have also been a passenger on a horse-drawn carriage where the animal was whipped into moving.
I use lots and lots of paper, destroying forestland and habitats for animals.
Superdude-
Are you reading any of this?
Look at Kinsey’s post just two posts up from the one where you link to a site that was brought up early on page one. His/her post is in response to those that think that the removing the knuckle method is the only one out there right now.
It isn’t. Read.
I posted earlier in this thread about my experience with having a cat declawed. She was obviously in pain, only taking a couple of steps at a time because she was walking on the actual surgery site. Short of putting her in a shoe box with a catheter and hand-feeding her, there was no way she could avoid having to - I’ll say it again - walk on the surgery site. What if all your toes were broken and you had to do everything for yourself? Not very pleasant, eh? Cats do have central nervous systems and are
The after-affects were not pretty either. She became aggressive and because her claws provided no defense (nothing like a good swat to tell a person you don’t want to be petted), and started biting - hard. Because she couldn’t defend herself or climb trees to escape from danger, we had to chase her down whenever she ran out of the house (not often, but she tried every singly day of her life). And all this so our precious furniture wouldn’t get harmed. Well, the joke is on my mother - we used to jump all over the furniture (sometimes with our shoes ON!) when she wasn’t home. HA!
Or is my own experience not a good enough site?
I don’t know too much about laser declawing, but I can only assume that the equipment necessary is pretty pricey and not all vets have it in their office. There’s a way to get cavities drilled using a laser, but you can barely find a dentist to do it and it’s pretty expensive. Cats and teeth are still being worked on the good old-fashioned way for the most part.
Ten years ago we saved a cat from certain death. We’ve given him a warm loving home where he could be lavished with attention and all the finer things in a cat’s life.
As I write this all of his siblings and his mother are dead. We decided to save him and part of that package was to decalw him.
I’d like to have him come to the computer right now to tell his story but he can’t. It’s not his “amputated toes” that keep him away, it’s that his ass never gets up this early. That’s right he is on my bed right now sawing logs. Later on today he will give us detailed instructions on when to feed him, what to feed him, when to pet him, when to crack a window so he can sniff the air, and when it’s time for bed. In the event the dog gets in his face he will take one of his butchered paws and bitch slap that dog ass over teakettle.
Now that I’m thinking about it I need to get him another case of his mushy food because he gets grumpy when there are only a few cans left. I guess somewhere in the back of his mind he remembers being hungry and cold.
If it were as cut and dried as picking between my cat with claws and my furniture/newborn baby crawling around I wouldn’t have that cat today. He would have died about 9 years ago. I think it was more humane to have him declawed.
I can almost imagine all the dead cats talking to me…meow…I’d rather be alive…meow… it’s not that big of a deal…Meow…I’m dead because of militant PETA bulshit. Meow…Laser my fucking claws off and bring me back to life…meow…being an inside pampered ass cat may not be as bad as the cold earth of my grave…….
Whoops! Got a phone call and got all distracted. I imagine I was going to say something to the effect of “cats are capable of feeling pain, anything that would hurt you would hurt them.”
Or something. I’m sure it was a lot more eloquent and thought-provoking, but it’s gone now. 