Geez. Miss one friggin’ post, and I gotta eat shit for it.
I didn’t say that, nor did I imply it.
I responded to something CNoteChris said because I thought it was ironic to accuse an opponent of declawing of “humanising” their pets. In addition, I stated my opinion (see the added underlining in the quote above), which is as said: if I were to consider having a cat as a pet, declawing it would never be an option to me, for the reasons mentioned. Should I find myself worrying about my furniture, the decision would then be to not have a cat, rather than having one and then have it declawed. That’s a personal judgement call. I see from this thread, and I already knew of your case first hand, that other people judge differently. I’m not suggesting they (and therefore, you) are heartless people who treat animals cruelly. Obviously, you love your cat. I know that, and am not suggesting otherwise. It’s just that I disagree with the practise of declawing. as far as I’m concerned, it’s not an opinion that can be changed by arguments from either side.
Also, bear in mind that there’s a cultural barrier here as well. Where I live, declawing cats is illegal. A vet can lose his license forever if he is caught performing this procedure. The same applies to the clipping of dog tails, ears, et cetera.
That’s obviously the reasoning you chose. And that’s fine within the locally relevant legal framework. I’m therefore not going to argue against it. All I am saying is that the reasoning I would have applied would have been different.
Again, you’re jumping to a conclusion I never made. It’s obvious you love animals. It’s also obvious I’m not stating my opinion as fact: I was merely explaining how I regarded the issue.
Finally. 
That’s about the gist of it, yeah.
I do have something to add to this discussion, however. Here’s a list of countries where declawing cats is either illegal, or it is only performed under extreme circumstances. IMHO, that is quite a long list of pretty serious countries there. Obviously, legislators in those countries made the same judgement call: should a pet owner be allowed to surgically alter his animal to suit his own needs? And the answer in all those countries was: no, the integrity of the animal comes first. You can make of it what you will, but at the very least it tells me that declawing cats is by no means a generally accepted practice throughout the world.
Again, that’s not implying an American citizen who decides to declaw his cat is abusive towards his animal per se (especially the laser treatment described seemed rather sophisticated), but don’t be surprised if the US will one day be among that list of countries I just quoted.
No judgement passed.
However, just because one (partially stray?) cat scratches you like no tomorrow doesn’t mean they all will. I grew up around cats. Lots of them, and obviously none of them declawed. Of course I was scratched every now and then, but it certainly wasn’t on a daily basis. Yeah, you could have some bad luck with a cat, especially when you don’t bring it up from day one. Some of these animals have a history. But that’s not enough reason to pre-emptively remove the claws of all cats, IMHO. If I lived somewhere where declawing was legal, and I had a cat, I would only consider declawing it if it scratched me constantly. And even then, I’d probably decide against it.
Sorry, it isn’t.
I’m not trying to be an asshole here, but your lone experience with a method that even I have qualms with isn’t an accurate representation of all the cat declawings going on right now.
Yours might just be the one in a hundred or so cases where problems occur in the declawing process-- it’s not the de-facto experience for all cats that get declawed. If it were, I think there would be far more people in here talking about their horrible experiences with that technique. So far, at least, that hasn’t happened.
Besides, that’s all moot anyways because it’s a method that’s being replaced with the more humane laser technique.
If you want to argue which is better for the cat and its wellbeing, then fine, argue away. But I tell you up front, you won’t get much of an argument from me there because I tend to agree that the old method was far from perfect.
But it’s not what the OP is arguing. The OP is arguing against all forms of declawing, not just which technique is better or worse. To her, the argument doesn’t even get that far because the whole notion of declawing is abhorrent.
Now she really doesn’t say that, in a way, because she uses arguments that expound that it’s cruel. But what I suspect she’s arguing is that is wrong outright, regardless.
She’d be more effective in her argument if she dropped the cruelty of it all and argued it in the way that Coldfire did. Then it’d be more reasonable because the cruelty aspect of it is diminishing by the day as new techniques are being developed.
Wow. This is a more contentious subject than I would have imagined.
I have been using the same vet all my life, and have come to develop an immense regard for him both as what amounts to a physician and as a person in general. To watch him with animals is to know that he loves and respects them, and genuinely has their best interests at heart. He is now in his early sixties, I guess, and so has probably worked with more animals of all sizes and stripes than any of us (my apologies to any other vets in the crowd). He’s saved the lives of hundreds - including one of my family’s dogs - and anyone who accused him of being cruel or heartless toward animals, or an unsuitable pet owner (he has two dogs, two cats, and a stable-full of horses), would rightfully earn a hearty laugh from him before he returned to the business of taking care of animals.
About six months ago I and my wife adopted two kittens from an animal shelter. I’ve had dogs all my life, but was never before a cat owner (we live in a tiny apartment that permits cats but not dogs). Unsure as I was about the declawing issue, I discussed it with my vet at length. His take:
Declawing is utterly painless and has no real effect on the cat’s ability to function. The opponents of declawing seem to be basing their opinion that the procedure is painful and crippling on groundless supposition: “oh, it MUST hurt, it MUST make them unhappy, I just KNOW it.” My vet, on the other hand, is basing his opinions on forty-some-odd years of observing animals in distress, as well as observing the probably hundreds of cats he has personally declawed using the laser method. My own personal experiences with our cats bore out this assertion; neither showed the slightest discomfort or reduction in mobility (no matter how carefully an animal might try to conceal his or her pain - why would they do this, again? - if their paws hurt, my cats would certainly not be jumping around the room like whirlwinds with whiskers.
Our vet said something to the effect of: "You are making a commitment to care for these cats for the rest of their lives. You are making a commitment to provide them with food, a safe, comfortable home, physical affection, discipline, and constant monitoring to ensure their safety - all of this at no small cost in terms of time and money. To ask them in return to undergo a painless procedure that does not change their daily lives in any way whatsoever is really not so much to ask.
So we did it. We got our cats declawed. And forgive me if I place the opinions of a trained professional, a man who has spent his entire life pursuing the well-being of domesticated animals, above those of stubborn people who insist on repeating the phrase “rip out their claws,” as if that alone will change the fact that this is no longer done (or, at any rate, shouldn’t be).
I love my cats a great deal, probably saved their lives by adopting them from the animal shelter where they were confined, and have gone through no small amount of trouble ensuring that they are happy, healthy, and well-fed. Do whatever you want with your own pets. But if you’re accusing me of cruelty, or of not caring about mine, then I say, in all sincerity: go to hell.
- Frank
Well, thank God someone heard me. For a while there, I thought I was talking to a brick wall.
techchick, the comment I made earlier in this thread was unneccesary. If you are truly reading and questioning the arguments made by both sides (which it now seems that you are) I was totally wrong. Sorry.
On a different note, I find that a lot of people are missing the point here. There are many sites you can find on google like this and this that show the pain the cat experiences is minimal, and the experience is very similar to what Kinsey described.
Let’s debate about that new, more humane procedure, 'kay?
FWIW, I would still oppose the practise if it were convincingly demonstrated to me that declawing a cat was 100% painless and without any ill effect on the cat. It does, however, set my mind at ease to know that the current procedures are (more or less?) painless for a cat. As long as it’s going to happen anyway, it better be done humanely, even if I disagree with it.
Coldie, I never thought I’d say this, but I agree with a moderator.
As I said, Kinsey, I missed your post earlier. Excuse the fuck outta me.
Well, we can’t all argue like Coldfire does, can we?
A lot of people (including myself) feel that declawing - no matter what method - is not right. Paws come with claws (gotta love those catchy slogans) and personally, I can’t stand by unnecessary surgery for convenience. I think the fact that it’s illegal speaks volumes. Would it be illegal if most people/veterinarians/cats had a positive experience with it? Probably not. I don’t think it’s a militant PETA stance to take, declawing is just one of those things that pet owners are either ok with or they’re not. Hopefully the “nots” will win on this one. I won’t insult someone for making the decision, but I surely can’t support it.
I guess my one experience with it was enough to teach me a lesson. I doubt she’s the only cat who ever had negative effects after the fact (aggression, lack of self-defense), but she’s the only one I’ve known that’s been declawed. Knowing there are other cats who don’t seem to be any worse for the wear doesn’t change my mind, just as knowing some cats are won’t change the mind of someone who sees no problem with declawing.
I guess just mark me down as “what Coldfire said” from now on. That should improve my debating skills.
Ya fucking ass Superdude!
I’m just kidding, dude, you’re alright in my book. Maybe Kinsey didn’t have a chance to see your post before he/she submitted it? I know it happens to me quite a bit.
Coldfire-
Fair enough. It took me a minute to figure out where you were arguing this from- either the stance that it’s cruel and it shouldn’t be done because that reason alone, or the stance that it shouldn’t be done simply out of principal.
The principal part is a value judgement and obviously we disagree with each other there- no problem. I wouldn’t mind arguing that aspect of the issue, but I feel it won’t even get to that point-- people will continue to equate declawing a cat as ripping out a cats claws and akin it to torture.
Sorry, CNoteChris. I’m just having a piss-poor day while I wait to see if I got my car loan.
Okay, sorry, Superdude, it’s just that I mentioned the laser procedure back on the first page and no one seemed to be listening. Posters (not just you) kept saying that declawing is cruel and painful because it involves removing the joint, and I kept pointing out that it doesn’t.
Let’s see…
- Most of us posting on this topic love kitties
- 99% (or some reasonable facsimile thereof) would say it is a good thing to neuter/spay a cat to prevent more unwanted kitties
- Hi Opal!
- Most of those of us who have posted and who have declawed kitties WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO HAVE THOSE KITTIES IF THEY WERE NOT DECLAWED
This means: if no declawing, there would be many additional homeless cats–a principle most of us agree is bad due to #2…
Yes, I have 2 kitties–both declawed in front. I really don’t know what type of procedure was done… older cat got declawed when she got spayed @ 6 months. I did not know GG’s info at that time. I was made aware of the declawing is bad and evil and inhumane argument after I rescued 2nd kitty. I tried EVERYTHING with 2nd kitty to make sure she kept her front claws, but alas she loved to claw me, the furniture, guests…I tried to train her–I did, but she loves water and hates treats and is generally untrainable–I tried nail shields and trimming–both to no avail. Finally, we had to come to a compromise–in order to stay she had to be declawed.
As far as pain, I suspect it did hurt initially and for the next couple of days–I felt bad, but I still felt it was the only decision I could have made. Now, she is still the same kitty and I don’t think either cat knows her claws are gone. Those of you w/ declawed cats–do your cats still "sharpen their claws on things?–mine love to “scratch the bed.” Now that I know about the laser thing I will make sure that I and all of my pet-loving (no–not like that :p) friends use this in the future if necessary.
And Coldy–I like you, I really do, and I know you qualified your statement saying it was personal to you, but how can you say that you wouldn’t do it unless it did not cause ANY pain. Vaccinations cause pain, but those are in the cat’s best interest… I trim my cat’s back claws and that apparently causes them some sort of psychological pain, but it’s necessary. And, if your cat is going to be inside all the time, spaying/neutering is not necessary–right? But we still do it and lord knows that causes the animals some pain…
And for those of you with declawed cats, I suspect you left your cat’s back claws on… as it is just flat out cheaper…cats with back claws can certainly defend themselves–shit–can they kick or WHAT!!! Although my cats will never go outside, if, for some unknown reason they get out, they will be able to defend themselves and climb trees…
OK, I’m done–let’s just celebrate that there are sooo many people that love kitties and take care of them so well. Now about those ear piercings…
It doesn’t necessarily have to be as painful, but laser equipment is very expensive and most vets don’t have the it. The old way of declawing is still being done routinely. I think if you’re going to have it done, laser is definitley the way to go, but with the equipment costing between 20,000-40,000, I don’t think a lot of small practices will be able to do it.
If you couldn’t have had it done with a laser, would you still have had your cat decalwed? I’m not trying to stir up trouble, I’m just curious.
Yes, as I mentioned before, both cats still “claw” everything. My male cat loves to scratch the furnace intake vent in the hall. It’s big, about 18 inches high, and 2 feet across, with the little vent thingys (like louvers?) on it. He stretches up and scratches all down that thing like there’s no tomorrow. I think he likes the feeling of the louver pieces between his toes (he’s a little odd 
). My female still “claws” the furniture and the walls and the door frames. I just say she’s sharpening her paws.
And yes, they both still have their back claws.
Nope. I mentioned that before. I was against having them declawed, because all I knew about was the remove-the-toe-joint method.
The vet recommended it, explaining the laser procedure, and stressing that it wasn’t painful. The only reason they even had to stay overnight was to make sure there were no complications from the anesthesia.
Oops, sorry, I must have missed that bit.
Well, FWIW, I’m glad that laser surgery is a growing choice for declawing. Now give your kitty a squeeze for me.
Because, like I said, it’s the principal that matters to me. If I had to chose between a painlessly declawed cat and an intact sofa on the one side, and a 100% razorsharp kitty and a destroyed sofa on the other, I would chose the latter. As it is, I chose not to have a cat at all, as I live in a second floor appartment, and am away from home most of the day. I personally feel cats are not “indoor” animals. When I buy a house out in the country one day, a cat will be the first thing I get! Oh, and some dogs, too.
True. And my counterargument is simple: I don’t believe declawing is “in the cats best interest”, whereas vaccinations clearly are.
I don’t know if it’s necessary, but it certainly isn’t hurting them. Of course, any animal will be pretty pissed off if you take it by the rear legs and approach it with a pair of scissors.
If I had one female cat, and it would be indoors at all times, I don’t think I would spay it. Then again, I wouldn’t have a cat if it would be indoors all the time. Neutering a male cat is another thing, obviously. And yes, I agree that the argument here is twofold: you don’t want to bring 2,000 other cats into the neighbourhood, but it’s an added bonus your house doesn’t reek of cat sperm (or whatever it is they spray) either. All cats I grew up with were spayed (sp?) or neutered. It didn’t seem to cause them any permanent physical harm, other than the possibly painful scars right after the operation. Male cats do undergo somewhat of a personality change after neutering, though. However, that’s the way it is if the alternative is a world full of (homeless) cats.
Precisely. I would never argue that declawing was a “necessary” procedure for the cat. But the animal agencies that don’t “support” the procedure, also don’t claim that it’s cruel or evil in any way. And while it may not be medically necessary for the cat, it certainly can be argued that it just might be necessary for the circumstances, for the cat to enjoy a comfortable and happy life.
Oh, I see, but I (and others who have declawed their cats) should rely on you to tell us whether or not doing a medical procedure is cruel? LMFAO at that one! How about we rely on our own selves and think it through based on our experiences and those of our veterinarians!
That does NOT make it the equivalent of removing HUMAN FINGERS. Jesus, this is frustrating. Removing the end toe bone joint on my cat has NOT affected her mobility WHATSOEVER. She still walks, runs, jumps and even scratches, in exactly the same way she did when she had claws.
No you didn’t “prove” a thing with those sites, let alone that it’s an “unacceptable” procedure. They do not advocate it, no. But they do not say that it’s unacceptable for me to choose to do it if my vet and I have decided that that’s the best course of action for my cat.
Again, no you didn’t. The Humane Society site, nor the other one (I can’t remember which one it was at the moment) did NOT SAY it was cruel, let alone that it was punishment.
I did nothing of the sort. My cat still uses her front paws (the only ones I had the claws removed from - she still has the back ones), exactly as if she still had claws in them. She “scratches” on the furniture and on some wicker baskets I hung low on the wall, specifically for her enjoyment. She still kneads, still climbs, still jumps and still runs around like a bat out of hell. Since she doesn’t go outdoors without a leash (it’s actually a harness that I made for her), she doesn’t need her claws for self-defense, so there’s nothing “important” about that part of her to “who she is.”
Yeah, you’re right. And as part of my responsibility to my cat, I keep her indoors, away from harm from other animals, cars, disease and potential animal abusers who might get a hold of her. Since she doesn’t need her damn claws and she’s not suffering for the lack of them, I hardly see where you get off telling me that I’m inhumane for having had them removed. I care a great deal for my cat. She lives a very pampered life. I have spent, literally, thousands of dollars over the years on her medical care and I resent the implication that I’ve acted in any way as though I own the damn world because I chose to care for my cat in a way that best suited our enviroment and situation, and that did not harm my cat in any way.
Hear! Hear! I so strongly oppose letting domesticated house cats run wild, that I demanded my sister stop coming crying to me in hysterics every time one of her precious kitties was eaten by a coyote or met with some such other horrid fate. If you allow your cats to face that kind of danger, then you deserve whatever fate befalls them and I don’t want to hear about it. See my link on the previous page about the cat I took in who’d had his throat ripped wide open in a cat fight in my yard (which cost me hundreds of dollars at the vet to take care of, even though it was someone else’s cat that they’d let outside!)
There is nothing more irresponsible, or, for that matter, inhumane, than to let pets run loose on the streets. There is nothing about that behaviour that says you give a damn about actually taking care of your supposed beloved pets.
You are exhasperating at times, my friend. You most certainly DID say that YOU THINK I am unfit to have my cat because she’s declawed. You see, you underlined the wrong part of your quote. For your clarification, I’ll underline the RELEVANT part - the part that offended me so deeply…
“The main issue is the fact that people [who] place the wellbeing of their home over that [of] their cats is a clear indication, at least to me, that they should not have owned any pets at all.”
And yeah, there was never any doubt that it was your “opinion”. It’s your “opinion” about ME (I think I qualify as one of the “people” to whom you were referring above) and MY fitness to own a cat that I am calling into question. Your opinion only matters as it pertains to any cats you might own. You do not have any right to tell me that I “should not have owned any pets at all” just because you have a different opinion than I do – and one that’s based on at least partially erroneous information, no less!
You DID pass judgement on me and I most certainly resented it.
While I wouldn’t agree that the procedure itself it utterly painless, neither do I believe that the minimal pain/discomfort involved warrants calling it “cruel and unusual punishment.” I loved the part where your doctor said that people have emotionalized this issue (“oh, it MUST hurt, it MUST make them unhappy, I just KNOW it.”), instead of actually looking at the facts.