declawing is AMPUTATION (in defence of cats)

The BBQ Pit
141

Pardon me while I titter behind my hand. I’ll wage that I’m older than you, bio, and have adopted shelter kitties and dogs all my adult life. I’ve worked with the local Humane Society, and taken home orphans for decades. Why was I presented with so many opportunities to welcome unwanted kittens and puppies into my home? FREE KITTENS! FREE PUPPIES! ALL FREE, ALL THE TIME!! From clueless people that scratch their heads because Fluffy or Buffy got herself knocked up. Gee, wonder how that happened? Irresponsible owners, say I.

Casual, indifferent owners of pets allow indiscriminate breeding. This differs vastly from dedicated, licensed breeders. There are back-yard breeders (whom I despise!), and those that breed to enhance the traits of the breed they specialize in. They show their cats, and breed out undesirable traits selectively. I researched several breeds of cats I was initially interested in, and came to the conclusion that Ragdolls were just what I was looking for.

I interviewed via email and phone, over 30 breeders of Ragdolls before I made my choice of breeder. She has only one litter a year; and I got on her waiting list. I don’t regret the almost two years time it took for me to finally pick up my new kittens at the airport. They are exactly what I wanted, claws and all. And they’ve been living with me since January 8, 2001.

So, yeah, my breeder knows how I feel about unwanted kittens and puppies, as we belong to the same groups that donate money for low/no fee spaying and neutering for low-income pet owners.

To get back on track with the OP, I see that the laser surgery is being misrepresented. From http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_declawing_and_its_alternatives.html

Please note that the laser method is likened to THE DISARTICULATION METHOD, in which the third bone is removed. As in gone, poof, amputation comes to mind? They do say that recovery time and bleeding are less than when done with a scalpel surgery, but the end results are the same. Kitty doesn’t lose ‘just a nail’, but the third bone all the same. The owners just don’t notice, because the symptoms are minimized.

A quote from the HSUS site:

“During laser surgery, a small, intense beam of light is used to cut through tissue by heating and vaporizing it, meaning there’s less bleeding, less pain, and a shorter recovery time. But the surgical technique itself is similar to the traditional method or “onychectomy”), with the laser simply replacing a steel scalpel blade.”

I think that asking a vet that routinely does declawing is the wrong counsel. If they have a laser machine, that costs from $20,000 to $40,000, they will drum up business to recover their costs. And ‘routine’ declawing surgeries fill that bill quite nicely. Just something to think about…

142

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by DeskMonkey *
**
[QUOTEpersonally, I can’t stand by unnecessary surgery for convenience. **[/QUOTE]

I’m scheduled for a vasectomy in about a month. Gonna come picket my urologist?

143

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by stofsky *
**

Yes, if your wife is having it done to you just because you’ve been ruining the furniture with that thing.

But if you’re having it done to prevent any more lil’ stofskys, then by all means, have at it.

:rolleyes:

144

If it’s so benign, why is it illegal in so many countries? I’ve owned cats all my life and I have never had the problems that you guys are saying are associated with cats with claws. I’ve tamed strays and raised kittens that were dumped in my yard and I’ve still got intact furniture and skin.

145

You know, I really resent this argument. Are you really implying that because your country outlaws it that the U.S.'s laws are wrong and you’re right? Laws are different in different countries for a lot of varying reasons. The U.S. outlaws prostitution and human euthenasia. Are we right about those issues, or are you? We allow our citizens to own hand guns and burn the flag. We right, or are you?

I’d say the reason that feline declawing isn’t outlawed in the U.S. is because there is no compelling evidence to support such a law. We enjoy the personal freedom to make medical decisions on behalf of our pets with the advice and consent of professional veterinarians. Who the fuck cares what you do in whatever country you’re from?

truthbot, you seem to have conveniently skipped over LaurAnge’s post, where she quotes, “Cats have claws that retract, meaning the nail of the last bone in the toe can be pulled up off the ground, and cats don’t walk on the last phalanx in the same manner as a rabbit or a dog.” The removal of that tiny little bone is irrelevant to the well-being and mobility of a cat. Proponents of the laser method of claw removal surgery feel better about doing it that way because it causes less initial trauma to the cat immediately following the procedure. It’s safer, quicker, less painful and therefore more humane. It still doesn’t matter to a cat that the tiny bone at the end of their toe is missing. Their paws are NOT THE SAME as human fingers or the paws of other animals.

146

[hijack!]

Gasp! A ragdoll?! Are those the cats that “go limp with delight when picked up”? We call one of our cats the honorary ragdoll, execpt when he goes limp, it is usually that “i’m a jello cat who doesnt want to be picked up” thing.

Are they so much fun? It sounds like such a great cat.

love
sneeze

[end hijack]

147

I’m a vet tech. I have been in the veterinary field for about 8 years. I started out in general practice and now I work in the ICU of a 24 hour referral/critical care/emergency hospital. I’m no medical genius but I have seen and learned a lot over the years.

I’m also a crazy cat lady. I have six. Three have their claws, three do not. (Fronts only). All my cats have gotten the same training, some simply could not be broken of the scratching habit.

Are declaws painful? Declaws done the traditional way, with a scalpel blade or a nail trimmer are. The vets I have worked with have always sent home pain meds for about the first week. Laser is much less painful.

Do they change your cat’s behavior? 90% of the cats I have seen come through my hospitals are totally fine. In my experience, the ones that do have personality changes are the ones who have been declawed all four.

Sheesh…this thread is so long and so many issues have been brought up, I can’t even try to address them all.

IMHO, declawing isn’t all that bad, especially with lasers becoming more common and the pain factor going down.

Oh yeah, I have tried Soft Paws and my experience with them has been so so. Cats’ claws (or my cats, anyway) grow pretty fast and I couldn’t keep the things on for very long. My cats did not seem to mind them though, and they are cheap enough, so people should at least give them a shot.

One last thing: yes yes yes to the clipping of birds’ wings. I don’t know of any vet that would not advise this.

148

Shayna, what did I conveniently gloss over in LaurAnge’s post? I was simply using facts to point out that laser surgery does the same thing as a scalpel surgery, with less trauma. To remove the claw, one has to remove the ‘nail bed’, no? And the ‘nail bed’ is contained in the third bone. And that third bone is removed during laser surgery. The procedure is the same, but the method is different. One of the posters claimed that laser surgery only removed ‘the claw’, and that is just plain wrong. If that’s what he was told by his vet, he was lied to.

Where in this thread have I likened a cat’s claw to human fingers??

sneeze, don’t get me started on my Raggies!:slight_smile: I could bore you to tears talking about them. My blue-mitted is Shoogie, and the flame-point is Merci. They are wonderful. And huge! At 14 months, Merci is already 22 pounds and still growing. They do have that ‘Ragdoll’ flop, but don’t believe what they tell you about them not shedding. I find myself vacuuming every day to keep up. I recommend Ragdolls with all my heart, and a HooverWindTunnel.

149

You’re probably referring to me. At one point I think I said that. In a sense, I think that’s a fair statement, but you’re right in that it’s not entirely accurate. That is, instead of saying, ‘It only removes the claw’, it should read, ‘It removes the claw by way of removing the third phalanx, or ‘toe’, of the cat.’.

I wasn’t lied to by my vet, nor was I trying to gloss over a complicated argument to try and make a point, I simply wasn’t accurate enough for whoever. Fine.

If the above clarification makes my earlier post better, or corrects it, then great, we’re clear now.

But it doesn’t change my stance on declawing in the slightest- that’s not the issue with me. The issue, as far as I’m concerned, is the well being of the cat before, during, and after the procedure. If the cat shows little or no signs of trauma or pain in any of those steps, regardless of the exact procedure, then I have no problem with it. Something’s going to happen. The cat’s going to be affected-- I’m not brain-dead. But if it falls within a range that I, and others, feel is humane and overall more beneficial for the cat in the long run, than I’m not going to have a problem with it . If lasers can make one part of that process better than it was before, which still didn’t seem all that bad to me, than even better!! I’m all for refining techniques to make it even less intrusive than it already is.

And since I’m back, I’ll bring up what really irritates me about this argument, or the fact that it’s an argument in the first place.

When I get down to making a decision on what will be best for the cat, and what options are out there, I’m not being a brain-dead owner here. I seek out different opinions and experiences on this topic and weigh them with the alternatives. The opinions out there are that the technique, or procedure, while invasive and uncomfortable for the cat, isn’t outright torture or brutality (If done properly). It sure as hell isn’t punishment. I’d like whoever brought up that nugget to elaborate on that… I’m having my cat declawed because I want to punish it!?! That’s so bizarre a comment, it’s hard to believe it’s meant seriously.

Where was I, oh yeah… so I’m weighing all the options and I’m weighing the consequences of those options. All of that, mind you, is under the guidance of professionals in the field (And I think they’re professionals who care about animals, not greedy bastards like someone mentioned here earlier) and people I know who had this procedure performed on their cat. In all the cases I’ve personally seen, and all the opinions I’ve heard on this matter from professionals, it’s a safe alternative to other options.
These are rational, sane people making these statements. They’re people that understand that certain options must be made. A person doesn’t just wake up one day and say, ‘Hell, that cat scratched me! Off to get those claws ripped out. Off to get your knuckles removed you little fuck! That’ll teach you to fuck with me again!!!’. On the contrary, it’s made with (Hopefully) some educated guidance and a clear head. It’s made with the cats best interest in mind.

That is, it’s weighed against not getting the claws removed and the life the cat would live then. If my cats shredding up my apartment, I either get rid of it or I live with it. But living with it probably isn’t all that fun for the cat. I’d be spraying it with water, bitching and yelling at it, or constantly putting chemicals or other agents around to try and modify that behavior. All of these reasons and more might just make that cats life less of a blast than it already appears to be. Or, I’d simply ignore it and let the cat play havoc with my place while I smile feebly and tell my friends, 'Well, I simply want precious to live a life that’s as intruded on as little as possible. I’m being a good pet owner.’

Hah!!

You’re intruded all over the place in not only the cat being here in the first place, but also whom it lives and for how long.

I’m getting off track again…

The point I want to make here is that cat owners are not necessarily making these decisions blind. Most responsible owners at least do what I did-- they weigh options with the alternatives. And when those alternatives are being presented in a manner that is reasoned, educated, and with examples and experiences that back up those statements, with thought given all the way around for all involved, I’m going to listen to those opinions. I’m sure as hell am not going to listen to the rantings of a uneducated boob who relies not on facts but on emotions that come from unfounded claims and experiences to get their point across. And I’m sure as hell am not going to let those people pass judgement on me and what I’ve done, especially in light of the weak, pathetic, arguments they present.

You got the facts? Give 'em. I’ll listen and might just change my mind. You got knee-jerk reactionary bullshit opinions based on… based on… based on nothing concrete or even remotely objective? Take a flying fuck.

150

This topic is mindblowing in its seeming simplicity, but still waters do run deep, do they not?

  1. Declawing a cat is a surgical procedure

Anyone care to argue with that? Do I need a fucking cite to back that up?

  1. Declawing a cat is a surgical procedure that is most commonly performed for convenience of the owner of the pet.

Are we clear on that? We aren’t declawing kitty to be nice to kitty, but so kitty can be nice to us. Seems relatively simple.

  1. Some of us feel that performing unecessary surgery on a cat is not a good thing.

I am one of those people. I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment: “Don’t get a cat.” Why? Because you obviously don’t want one. I don’t know what pet you do want, but it isn’t a cat.

I have seen several utilitarian arguments applied here in order to support declawing of cats by people who readily admit they really, really care for their cats. I would be happy to apply any number of utilitarian arguments toward the killing of old people once they can no longer work, toward cannibalism, and toward random FDA drug-testing “lotteries.”

I have a personal problem with declawing cats. I have no problem with others declawing cats. I feel that their reasons for declawing cats are very telling as to how they “really” feel about animals. I really feel that animals are basically ours to do with as we please, so don’t go bitching at me without thinking about it first. I love cats. I do not perform cosmetic surgery to things that I love. Part of me loving another thing is to accept it for what it is. I wouldn’t love my mom more if I cut out her tongue so she couldn’t nag me anymore. I can think of several operational procedures which would make this painless, and we know damn well she could learn sign language and function just as well. I simply consider unnecessary surgery on creatures that I love to be antithetical to that love.

151

Been following this thread since its inception, and I haven’t had anything useful to add. But I take extreme exception to this.

I guess that the likes of Stoid, Coldfire and myself are irresponsible because we prefer our animals to have the option of going outside, as opposed to being inside all the time. The stink of a litterbox aside, I myself find that many of my friends’ indoor cats are overweight, underexercised, and so hyper that I hardly recognize them as belonging to the same species as my own laid-back, well-muscled, friendly felines.

I guess grooming our longhaired furry every morning when he comes in, to make sure his fur is free of seeds and mats, doesn’t make us responsible. Nor does getting up in the middle of the night when they decide they’re bored and they want outside to tussle in the snow. or to use the raw timber in the back porch as a scratching post. Yes, they all have their claws. If you choose to declaw your cats, that’s your choice, though I would never declaw an outdoor/indoor cat. We have leather furniture, the only scratches it has suffered is from when our youngest were still learning to jump and put on the brakes.

They have food, shelter BOTH indoor and outdoor, as much loving human companionship as they could possibly desire. If that’s to be considered inhumane, so be it. Of the 10+ adult cats that have lived in my house for the 21 years of my life, as well as the 15+ kittens that have been given away ASAP, only (PERHAPS) 2 cats have gone unaccounted for, that might have been killed by coyotes. Which are rampant, in this area, BTW. Maybe because we’ve always had a dog. Shrug.

I do agree (with Coldfire) that a person who intends to have an indoor/outdoor cat should make sure that their property and situation to the road are such that the cat has a ready escape from predators, as well as plenty of territory between home and the road, to help prevent vehicular felicide.

Maybe the quoted post was only meant to refer to those who have outdoor cats and a lawn the size of a postage stamp, situated next to a major highway. Not sure. But I thought I’d make my own point, in any case.

152

In a word, yes.

153

Glad your whole world is black and white, Shayna.

154

So depriving an animal of its natural habitat is better for it? I suppose my dog shouldn’t stay out during the day either?

155

No, Venoma, my whole world isn’t black and white, but certainly my opinion on this issue is.

When you adopt a pet, you have a responsibility to take care of that pet. Exposing it to dangers such as cars, coyotes, dogs, feral cats, disease, fleas, tics and potential animal abusers is not taking care of your pet. Period.

You can argue until you’re blue in the face that cats are “supposed” to be outdoor animals, but I will never, ever be convinced of that. They’re domesticated house pets. And they deserve the care and attention of their owners.

Do I think you’re kind and compassionate for getting up in the middle of the night to cater to your cat’s desire to go outside? Fuck no. I think it’s cruel and heartless. Does my cat like going outside? You bet. But she doesn’t go outside unless she’s on her harness. I have a duty to keep my pet in my care and control at all times. That you are irresponsible enough to let your pet roam the neighborhood is not commendable in the slightest. It’s not a wild animal and should not be allowed to behave as one!

Am I supposed to applaud you for the fact that you’ve only lost 2 cats out of 10 to coyotes or other hazards you exposed it to? That’s hardly going to happen.

Is my cat fat and lazy? Not even a little bit. She likes to play “shortstop” with me when I make little aluminum foil balls and toss them in the air at her. Or I’ll flick them across the room on the floor and she’ll go chasing furiously after them. I have long sticks that she loves to chase as I drag them across the floor, going from room to room and jumping up on the bed while we play. I situated my furniture so she can jump on a chair and then to the top of some wall units in my living room, and she can jump from the bed to the dresser to the closet shelf. She gets plenty of exercise because I play with her, as part of my responsibility to her care (and because I love her and love playing silly games with her).

And I could tell extremely early when she came down with chronic renal failure because I keep her inside and could tell when she started drinking and urinating excessively. I caught it early enough that she and I can enjoy, with any luck, at least another 2 years together, given proper care, which I provide on a daily basis. If my cat took to roaming the streets, it’s highly unlikely I’d either have known about her condition early enough to treat it or that I’d be able to provide the proper care to her, since it’s important that her fluids are administered at fairly precise intervals. If she were wandering around all night and I couldn’t get her in, she could miss important doses of her medicine.

And by allowing your pet to run the neighborhood, you aren’t only being careless with them, but completely and utterly inconsiderate of every one of your neighbors. I’m sick to death of putting up with you irresponsible people who cause me to have to care for your pets because you’re too damn selfish and lazy to train them to go out on a lead/leash/harness/whatever. I’ve had to scrape a near-dead cat off the street and run around to 3 different places to find an animal emergency hospital, only to have it convulse and die in my car. I recently had to take in someone else’s cat (and I know it wasn’t born wild because he had been fixed!) after a terrible cat fight that ended with him having his throat ripped open. Wanna reimburse me the $500 I spend on your damn animal when it ends up in my yard, bleeding to death?!

And you people have the audacity to tell me that if I have a few teeny, tiny little unnecessary bones removed from my cat’s front paws means that I don’t love my pet?! How dare you?

156

Dilbert, if your dog is in a fenced yard it is not subject to being hit by cars or attacked by other animals. Nor can it wreak havoc on your neighbors property. If you have your animal on your property and in your care and control, that’s fine. But never, ever, EVER should anyone be allowed to let their pets roam around free as if they were wild animals. They’re not.

157

My only take on the indoor/outdoor issue is this:

If the neighbor’s cat continues to shit in my flowerbed, I will start releasing the dogs on it. And if they catch it, I’m not going to shed a single tear.

158

Oh, I think you think you love your pet. I don’t like that idea of love. And I dare do so because, Shayna, loving other creatures is supposed to be very meaningful, and performing elective surgery for selfish reasons on an animal which most people consider unable to have the ability to consent is, in my opinion, not a factor of love, and actually goes against love. Under your justifications I could sexually molest my cat after anesthetizing him unconscious and this should be just as loving of an act as if I declawed him. Even more loving, in fact, because there is no permanent change to his morphology!

I understand your motivation. I understand your love. It isn’t my love. Is that really such a harsh thing to say?

159

Yes. And a disgusting and vile comparison to make. Fuck off.

160

Well . . . yes, I think it is, erl. At least, I think I’d be hurt if someone said it to me.