Well, considering that entire rant was directed at ME, and I said that nowhere, I have to consider that your feelings on this topic are far too strong for you to be rational.
I did write a great deal more, to clarify somewhat my stance on the issue, and to detail the family history that led to the current situation, but it would obviously be lost on you. I’ll keep doing as I already do, in any case. Your vitrol isn’t likely to convince anyone else here either, IMNSHO.
First of all, that last line was separated in its own paragraph because it was not directly about the indoor/outdoor issue, but going back to the declawing one, so no, that part was not directed to you, personally. The use of the word ‘people’ should have been a clue, too, that it was a generalized statement and not a personal one. I apologize for having not been clearer on that.
However, not only do I not see any clarification about your family history that led to your stance on letting your domesticated house pets run free like wild animals, the attitude you possess about the issue was very clear…
And that, Venoma, speaks volumes to me about your stance on this issue and is really all I need to know.
Are my posts invisible in this thread?
Scroll up a bit and notice where I argued that this argument is invalid because we created cats as they are now. It’s a little late to be backtracking and talking about “natural environment” and “shaping to our will”.
DEAR GOD. Way to take that out of context. That was on me pondering why, if we have such a coyote problem in the AREA, we don’t have such a problem in the exact locale of my house. Jesus fucking H. Christ. I was postulating that it might have something to do with the fact that we have a dog, and the shrug was because there’s really no fucking way I can verify that.
Family history? Farmers, always had cats. It wasn’t a case of adoption, they all just got passed through the family. So originally, the cats were entirely outdoor animals, there to keep mice out of the grain. Sorry, that’s the way it was. Then ‘we’ (as in immediate family) got some (when my mother and father married), were poor, couldn’t afford to spay. They multiplied, and how. Dad had to ‘get rid’ of some of them, because we had too many, couldn’t feed, couldn’t afford to spay. Please don’t give me any bullshit on this, at the time we couldn’t afford Christmas or Easter gifts either. Eventually, we were able to spay a male cat and bring him home. All our cats have been male and spayed since then, which dramatically cuts down on the territory they claim, and they do tend to stay MUCH closer to home.
Don’t feed me that fucking bullshit about not caring about my animals because they go outdoors. (They’re inside fucking 80% of the goddamn fucking time anyways!) I do EVERYTHING that I can to make sure they are happy and healthy. I cannot keep them inside ALL the time, even if I did want to, which I dont. Why? IT’S NOT MY HOUSE.
So here, you see a person you might have convinced to keep animals indoors when she was able to set up her own household. Congratulations on a magnificent failure.
Oh, and if you did get my cat patched up? Yes, I would gladly reimburse you the money, when I could, as you had already had it done. If I was the one to find the cat? I might have to have it put down. I don’t always have that kind of money on hand. If I had that amount available to me, I might be able to. Maybe. Believe it or not, (obviously you don’t, because you’ve already prejudged my character from the simple fact that I prefer my cats as outdoor/indoor animals) I am actually a very responsible person, financially and otherwise.
But why would you give a shit? and why do I give a shit? I don’t fucking know. Maybe being prejudged, the way you just did, pisses me off.
P.S. would you like to fence in our 80 acre lot? You’re sure welcome to try!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by erislover *
**
Do you think fucking a cat would keep it from scratching furniture? :eek:
What is the definition of eris?
I’m going to search google and if it turns out to be cat I’ll just freak right out.
I do see the “under your justifications” but that cat molesting business did come from your brain so I must reiterate :eek:
Ever try to fence in a cat? Cats have just as much capability to be outside than dogs, if not more. Why should I deprive my cats their desire to go outside just because I cannot keep them within a specified area? I live in the country. They did not wreak havoc on my neighbors, they went into the field to hunt.
Now this is irrelavant, since 2 of my cats are indoor cats, and the one only goes out when her paw isn’t bothering her. However, when I lived with my parents, our cat went out every night. If it was cold, sometimes he made it until 2 or 3 until he demanded to be out. It didn’t shorten his lifespan of 18 years any, even when he could only walk on 3 legs due to his arthritis.
waxteeth, I’ll save you the time.
waxteeth, I’ll save you the time.
Interesting. How exactly does “we have domesticated cats over thousands of years” invalidate the argument that “the same utilitiarian justifications for direct, unnecessary surgery can be used to justify other acts of which most people disapprove. [my argument, paraphrased]” I’m not sure I see it, myself. This is just the BBQ Pit, though. You are welcome to rant all you like without justification. Ain’t gonna bother me.
Are you perhaps stating that “We’ve already modified them anyway, might as well go the whole nine?” That’s an interesting form of the slippery slope argument. From this I would expect that you should support the following things as well, since they are humans directly doing what evolution and behavioral modification take hundreds of years to achieve:
genetic modification of foods (instead of breeding strains)
genetic modification of people (instead of offensive personal opinions)
cloning (instead of tedious sexual reproduction)
abortion (instead of the non-foolproof pill)
Heck, we already started the path to those things. Why not take it the whole way? (Ready? 1…2…3…) :rolleyes:
Declaw your cat, I don’t really give a shit. As I said, it is your animal. Do what you like with it. Eat it, if you want. In my mind, cats come with claws. That is a consideration when I think about owning cats. If I wanted something that wouldn’t scratch up the furniture I wouldn’t get a cat. In my mind, love entails accepting things as they are. I wouldn’t perform that kind of surgery on a cat. Big deal. We disagree.
The world will move on.
Do you really think selective breeding isn’t genetic engineering?
Would you object to a cat being engineered to have no claws from birth?
You can also look at the Principia Discordia for a greater understanding of She-What-Done-It-All. Just know that madness can be a side effect of reading that Holy Tome.
Yes.
No.
My apologies if these points have been made repeatedly already, I read through two and a half pages already, and need to get back to work 
If cats, dogs, birds, and whatever else are part of the animal kingdom like us, should we even be allowed to force them to live in our homes and do our biddings?
The wife and I visited her Uncle this weekend. He had a dog, which on command would sit, lay down, and roll over for our amusement. I tried to convice the poor beast’s owner not to impose his humanistic evils on the canine, but my arguments fell on deaf ears.
They also had a cat, who of course had been declawed. The cat spent most of its time curled up on a big quilt on an ottoman, but it looked miserable. Poor little guy.
(sarchasm mode off)
What always strikes me as funny about these conversations, is the fact that no one seems to have a problem with spaying of nuetering pets (which IIRC in some places is a mandatory prerequisite for pet adoption), but find declawing terribly inhumane. Even the HSUS itself doesn’t have any strong objections to the practice, it just maintains that “for the majority of cats, the pain and expense of this surgical procedure are unnecessary.” Now there’s a good rallying cry. I can picture a few of the posters above locking arms outside an animal clinic, all the while chanting:
FOR THE MAJORITY OF CATS, THE PAIN AND EXPENSE OF THIS PROCEDURE ARE UNNECESSARY! FOR THE MAJORITY OF CATS, THE PAIN AND EXPENSE OF THIS PROCEDURE ARE UNNECESSARY!
I personally would much rather be declawed than spayed or neutered. I can dislodge the occasional sesame seed from my teeth would a toothpick if need be.
Good grief, people! This is getting obscenely futile and turning into another pointless Great Debate. There is a reason I don’t go there.
Shayna and other pro-declaw-ers genuinely loves her cat. Gadgetgirl and other anti-declaw-ers genuinely love theirs. It’s a difference of opinion that is escalating to such ugly levels of vehemence, intolerance, and near fundamentalist “I’M RIGHT YOU’RE WRONG I LOVE MY CAT YOU ONLY THINK YOU LOVE YOUR CAT” bullshit that it’s just making entirely too many respectable SDMBers look like assholes.
This is just audacious.
Have the opinion you will for the facts you choose to base it on. But also know that there are perfectly happy declawed cats and perfectly content (and undestructive) intact cats–and respective owners of both who adore them as their own children. It is a supreme insult to both to suggest otherwise, and simply in poor form.
Sheez, I hate this intolerant, insulting shit.
Then why did you come to this thread?
[ahem]
That you consider feelings of love just opinions might interest people you do love. I do not expect Shayna and I to have the same definition of love, or the same conditions under which we love. I do expect that we would agree that love is the stongest positive emotion one can have for another thing when used literally. As such, while an opinion, perhaps it isn’t unreasonable for people to take such a topic very seriously.
Is that “just” an opinion? Can I discount it as unimportant, or did you really mean it?
That’s just an opinion, isn’t it? Or do you really mean this, too? So hard to tell… if only we had words which represented strong emotional content…
Alas, not here at the SDMB.
OK, one last try.
What if you add to this knowledge the fact that I don’t currently keep a cat because:[ul][li]I live in a big city, which I do not consider a good place for a cat since I believe cats should be able to go outdoors;I am away a significant portion of the day, leading to my hypothetical cat being lonely (especially if I were to keep it indoors all the time).[/ul]Still irresponsible? Just wanna know.[/li]
Like I already said in this thread, I consider cats to be (at least partially) outdoor animals. I don’t consider them efficient car dodgers, though. So if I ever have a cat, it’ll be when I live in a remote area where contact with cars is at least highly unlikely - as opposed to: downtown Amsterdam. Predators, apart from other cats and big dogs, aren’t an issue where I live.
Still irresponsible?
**
Where did I say that feelings of love are “just opinions”?
**
That is very reasonable and well-said. Taking it seriously is to be expected; standing in condemning judgement of another because I Know They Couldn’t Possibly Love Their Cat is ludicrous. Several people have offered their perspectives without, essentially, punching below the belt. Others regretfully have not.
**
It is obvious you have already answered your own question. I also find it interesting that opinions are somehow of lesser importance to you; they are “just” opinions. People don’t “really mean” them. Opinion may be a simplified word, but people’s entire perspectives, philosophies, and even religious beliefs are based on them. They are far more serious, respectable, and contemplative than perhaps you believe I was considering them.
:rolleyes:
<sigh> Dilbert, you didn’t ask me about your cat, you only asked me about keeping your dog outside. But since you bring up your cat now, and your inability to keep it within a specified area, I’ll simply say that as a pet owner it’s your responsibility to train it properly. My cat likes going outside, too. However, she knows she’s not allowed out without being on her harness and waits patiently as I get it strapped around her. Therefore, she’s not ‘deprived’ of anything. Re: living in the country, see my reply to Coldfire, below.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Coldfire *
OK, one last try.
What if you add to this knowledge the fact that I don’t currently keep a cat because:[ul][li]I live in a big city, which I do not consider a good place for a cat since I believe cats should be able to go outdoors;I am away a significant portion of the day, leading to my hypothetical cat being lonely (especially if I were to keep it indoors all the time).[/ul]Still irresponsible? Just wanna know.[/li][/quote]
How could it possibly be irresponsible to not get a pet because you don’t feel you’re in a position to properly care for it (forgetting for a minute that our ideas of proper care differ)? I don’t think I understand this question, hon, but I will address a couple of points.
I’ll get to the belief that cats should be able to go outdoors later, but addressing cats and loneliness, I can possibly shed some light on that issue for you. I used to feel really guilty leaving Mew all day when I was at work, just like you say you would feel. I also thought that she got lonely when I was away so much. In my nearly 18 years of having a cat, I’ve learned a few things, one of which is that cats don’t experience loneliness the same way people do. That’s a human emotion we attribute to them that doesn’t necessarily jibe with their catalities (hard to claim we can’t attribute that particular human emotion to a cat and then refer to them as having "person"alities, right? ;))
However, I also learned that that is more true of certain breeds than it is of others. For instance, long-haired female cats tend to be more solitary than short-haired cats. I tried several times to adopt other cats in an effort to “keep my cat company.” It was a nightmare every single time. She does just fine on her own and actually prefers the solitude! So if you only want 1 cat, then that would be the type of cat you’d want to look for.
http://www.only-pets.com/story?h=show_story&id_object=224
Besides, what do you think outdoor cats are doing all day while they’re roaming the neighborhood - having tea and luncheons with the other outdoor cats to keep themselves company? No, they’re more likely keeping to themselves and defending their territory from those other cats (witness Shadow!). Does letting them run around outside really make them less lonely somehow? No!
On the other hand, if you’re really concerned about an indoor cat being lonely while you’re at work, the simplest solution is to get 2 cats! Just make sure to get them at the same time so you don’t have the problems I had with introducing another cat into an existing cat’s already established territory.
Coldfire, even if you are able to eliminate 2 or 3 of the potential dangers an outdoor cat would face, by living in a remote area, you still have quite a few other considerations with regard to its health and safety, not the least of which are those pesky “other cats and big dogs” you so casually dismiss as though they’re not a real issue. After what just happened with Shadow, I can assure you that other cats are, indeed, a big health and safety concern. Also…
[li]When I lived in Mexico, a little over 9 years ago, Mew developed a kidney infection. What caused it, I don’t know. However, I do know that she absolutely, positively would have died had I not been able to notice the blood in the urine in her litter box in order to know there was something wrong because she showed no other symptoms. The first vet I took her to told me that one of her kidneys was so enlarged that it might have to be removed to save her life. I got a second opinion and that vet prescribed a heavy-duty antibiotic to treat the infection before resorting to surgery. Thankfully the drugs completely eliminated the infection and she came through with flying colors. But she most certainly would not have if I hadn’t had her as an indoor only cat. That means that Mewkitty would have died around the age of 8, and instead, she’s still with me at nearly 18![/li]
[li]When I first brought Shadow in the house (for those who haven’t followed the story, he’s the stray - someone else’s pet who was allowed outdoors and showed up at my house with no collar or tags - that I took in after his throat was torn open in a cat fight), every day when I cleaned his litter box, it was full of basically liquid stools. So I called the vet, who said that loose stools and diarrhea can be the result of high levels of bacteria in the intestines, but she recommended first trying to feed him something high fiber, such as raw pumpkin, to see if that helped. A week later his stools were still runny, so we had to put him on medication to get rid of the excess bacteria in his system. Who knows how long that poor cat had to suffer with terrible diarrhea when he was outside! And who knows what possible health ramifications that could’ve caused for him. The only way I was able to detect that he had a health problem was by confining him inside![/li]
[li]A few years ago we had a problem with skunks and possums getting into the crawl space under our building through an opening in the wall near the ground in the back. The owner had a screen covering made to fit over the outside of the opening and secured it in place with some big, heavy cement blocks. Nothing was getting in or out of that opening except a person who could move the blocks. A couple of months ago, one of my neighbors had to go under the house and while crawling around under there, found the rotted corpse/skeleton of someone’s cat, who’d gotten trapped under there when the opening was sealed off and no one knew a kitty had gotten in there. Have you any idea what a horribly painful death starvation is?[/li]
Why would you want to risk these fates on a pet you’ve adopted? Sure, the odds might be low that your cat could get trapped somewhere it can’t get out of (though possibly not, I don’t know), but the risk of infection, disease and injury are still much higher for free-running cats than they are for indoor-only cats (and some hazards are non-existent for indoor-only cats).
And I haven’t even mentioned the risk of human predators, such as evil kids who think it’s funny to torture defenseless animals. You only need to read Zenster’s thread about the boys he caught torturing cats to know it’s a real possibility. And it doesn’t matter how far out in the country you live - evil kids don’t just live in big cities, you know! And I’m sure you don’t want the gruesome details of my sister’s neighbor (and she lives WAY out in the country on 12 acres!) who shot and killed one of her dogs because she wouldn’t do anything about keeping them off his property after many requests to do so (“The dogs like running free and we can’t pen them up! That’s what dogs are supposed to do!”). Do you think an angry neighbor wouldn’t just as willingly kill your cat if it kept getting on his property? Think again!
So, after this long ramble, I’ll answer your question as to whether I think it’s irresponsible of you to let your cat run wild even if you’re in a remote area, by simply saying that if I were a cat, I would much rather be my indoor, declawed cat than your clawed indoor/outdoor one. I’d be much safer and happier.
(Oh, and for the record, just to bring this back on topic, just because my current cat happens to be declawed, doesn’t mean I advocate declawing all indoor cats for no reason other than that they’re indoors and don’t need them. Especially not merely for the sake of the furniture! The irony is, that I had long ago decided that whenever I get another cat (and after Mew’s gone, I will someday) I won’t have it declawed. The biggest reasons I’ve argued so vehemently about it in this thread is a combination of feeling personally attacked as a cruel and inhumane person for having done it (and remember, that decision was made nearly 18 years ago!) and that I don’t think it’s the horrendous offense that its being portrayed as by those who oppose it.)
Can I ask why, then?
First off, I simply disagree that is irresponsible to allow a cat to roam outdoors. You say your cat is not being “deprived” of anything? What about the ability to explore? Her instinct to hunt? Has she ever caught a mouse while on her leash? Believe it or not, cats are very good at rodent control. I guess I’m irresponsible if I want a cat for that?
Ok, what is seems like you’re saying is that owners don’t pay enough attention to indoor/outdoor cats to notice their illnesses. If they have an outdoor only cat (think barn cat), that is a possiblity. In that case, the cats are pretty much wild anyway. However, I never had any problems detecting illness in an indoor/outdoor cat. Just because I’m “irresponsible” by letting my cat go outside, doesn’t mean I’m negligent.
As far as dangers. If you get a cat that was born indoors, raised indoors and then given away in a cardboard box outside of Wal-Mart, then yes, it is irresponsible to let them out. If you get a barn cat from one of your neighbors when they have kittens, that cat has already been taught how to survive outside. They know how to handle dogs, they know how to fight other cats and remain relatively injury free. They know to be wary of strangers. In my area, outdoor cats are a way of life. Everyone accepts them and people don’t shoot them.
I can assure you that our outdoor cat that we have confined to the indoors was much happier outside. Unfortunately, her state of health mandates that we keep her inside. And our indoor cat has a nick on her ear from that cat. Dangers exist inside as well. They can get burned on irons, stoves, etc. They can pull things down on top of them.