Declining population= higher standard of living?

I see a lot of alarmist sentiments about the declining populations in nations such as Japan and South Korea, but I’m struggling to understand why- wont a lower population lead to a higher SOL for everyone? Less people means less competition for employment, resources, and housing. Less competition for employment, resources, and housing means higher salaries and lower housing costs. People often talk about the fact that real wages in the U.S. have remained stagnant since the mid 70s, even though economic productivity has increased dramatically. Well, the world population has nearly doubled since that time, and due to the world being an order of magnitude more interconnected, US workers have had to compete with workers in other nations.

I’m just not seeing any evidence that a declining population would be at all bad for the common man. In fact, I see far more evidence that it would be greatly beneficial to the common man. I think there’s a reason why the ruling class of every nation dreads population decline and wants there to be higher birth rates- population decline means less people to use, abuse, and exploit for their own ends. It’s much harder to convince someone to accept a slave wage at a McJob when there aren’t a dozen other cretins lined up, willing and ready to take that job and slave wage.

Or maybe I’m wrong. I’d like for someone to convince me that this is not the case, that population decline is actually bad for the average person’s standard of living.

I think what most nations want isn’t a bigger population, but a *younger *population. And from many demographic standpoints, a small-to-medium sized young populace is better than most or all large populaces.

In centuries past, a declining population probably would have meant a higher standard of living.

But these days, with all the government programs, things are a lot different. Many old people are physically unable to work. Such people used to be supported by their individual family, but now they’re supported by taxpayers in general. So taxes have to rise (or else benefits have to be cut) in order to keep the programs going. Higher taxes are a drag on the economy. And a larger and larger percentage of government spending goes towards those programs, which leaves less for other important stuff.

In the third generation, the OP would be correct. But as the large first generation enters the geriatric phase, requiring care from the smaller second generation, resources will be stretched to the limit for about 30 years. The third generation will come into adulthood with the stress just beginning to slow down again. Only when the age distribution evens out will any benefits be felt.

A declining population means a declining workforce, and a declining workforce means declining national productivity.

Basically, as long as each worker produces more than he consumes, the the addition of own worker to the population raises production, both in absolute and per-capita terms.

It’s not as simple as that, of course, because you have to grapple with things like changes to dependency ratios in the population,etc. But the analysis in the OP basically treats wealth as a fixed quantity, to be divided among the population, so a smaller population means a larger share of the cake for all. That’s not right; the population both produces and consumes the cake, so a smaller population means a smaller cake.

It depends WHY the population is declining. If there’s only one reason, then it better be a happy reason - but usually there are several reasons at once.

Generalizing is always difficult. :wink:

Japan Demographics Profile 2018
Population 126,451,398 (July 2017 est.)
Median age total: 47.3 years male: 46 years female: 48.7 years (2017 est.)
Population growth rate -0.21% (2017 est.)
Birth rate 7.7 births/1,000 population (2017 est.)
Death rate 9.8 deaths/1,000 population (2017 est.)

Notice the median age there.

The U.S. is graying, according to new census data from the American Community Survey. In the period from 2005-2009, the median age of Americans was 36.5 years old. According to the recent data release from 2010-2014, the median age was 37.4 years old – an increase of about a year.

I’g guessing that the problem of declining population is because of deficit spending–which is the way every modern country manages their economy.
The government spends vastly more than it takes in from taxes, goes deeply into debt, and then figures that the next generation will pay off the debts.

I ain’t no economist, but it sure seems like the entire economic system is basically a giant Ponzi scheme.
As long as there are lots of new people joining in, and paying into the system–then there’s enough money in the pot to spend on the people who joined earlier.
But it means you have to a constant stream of new people joining, and paying more and more into the pot.

They call it “growing the economy”. It’s worked pretty well for the past century or so.

There’s the famous quote from Keynes , who said “in the long run we’re all dead”.

A hundred years later, we’re doing fine.
I just don’t understand how it will continue to work in the long run, when there are fewer people, and most of them will be elderly.

My guess is there will be changing attitudes about older people, the younger generations will resent them as a troublesome burden and possibly have less sympathy for their declining health and there will be calls to stop collectively subsidizing their retirement and medical care…we’ve seen wars between religions and ethnic groups, we’ve seen (currently) what can feel like conflict between the sexes; maybe the next great divide will be between the young and the old. Kind of like the 60s, but more severe? I don’t know. Just a guess.

Yes. If we were still hunter gatherers or subsistence farmers. But a modern industrialised society needs workers as UDS points out. It’s workers who design and maintain the infrastructure and innovate to improve production efficiency. If population is reducing then you don’t have such workers anymore and production falls along with production. The historical record bears this out, reduced population leads to much reduced production which typically results in lower per capita resources for the smaller population. For instance in W Europe after the fall of Rome or the ME after the Mongols.

Alarmists have been shouting about overpopulation since 1970. Despite the population growing faster than expected, the average human enjoys a standard of living higher than anytime in history and higher than 1970.

A declining population would result in a smaller workforce resulting in very low unemployment. Some of the effects which we are seeing now. Businesses struggling to find enough quality workers or even any workers.
Hard to have a higher standard of living when you can’t get a higher quality of goods and services.

I was wondering if it had ever occurred to anybody else that the endless growth basis for our economy is essentially a Ponzi scheme. Thankfully it has.

Not necessarily, no.
Fewer people generally means proportionally fewer jobs for a start; because you have less demand.

Likewise with housing; if the same percent of the population is working in construction as now, then demand for housing gets as (un-)fulfilled as it is now*.

So out of those 3 I expect to only see an advantage WRT natural resources, and most natural resources are in greater abundance now (in terms of what we can extract) that ever before.
Some resources such as water are absolutely a problem for poor countries, so we can say, for those countries, they’d be better off with a declining population. But they’d be better still climbing out of poverty, as then they could build the infrastructure required to clean, transport and/or desalinate water (as well as solve many other problems).

  • Of course a much more common cause of high housing prices is zoning restrictions, so decrease the population, and keep the restrictions the same, and you have more area for residential housing and therefore prices are not so high.
    It’s not as simple as that, because if you cut the population then the city will probably contract, but for argument’s sake let’s say hypothetically there is a possible benefit to a declining population there.

Perhaps it turns out that the Ponzi scheme is capitalism itself - i.e. not that we’re doing a bad job of capitalism, but that it’s an inherently invalid system.

I can accept this

it depends on future advances in technology drastically increasing productivity and wealth for all. Which it might.

When the elderly are 'supported by their individual famil[ies]", it doesn’t change the math: that’s still productive resources having to be diverted. If anything, it’s a lot more inefficient to have to pull a second person out of the workforce–who may have a whole other set of skills–to be a full-time carer for the elderly person they are related to. And even if we are just talking about people who can live independently but can’t work so they were financially supported by their families–that is also someone paying money to support those individuals. Whether or not the money goes through a common pot or from individual households doesn’t change the fact that the need exists and has to be addressed.

The

Yes yes a thousand times yes. A declining population does not mean less competition for jobs and a higher standard of living. It means less demand and fewer jobs. It means a stagnating economy.

Except it isn’t. A Ponzi scheme relies on more and more ‘investors’ getting a smaller and smaller portion of the revenues as money is funnelled upwards, and is geometrically unsustainable irrespective of future growth. The modern growth economy relies not just on having more workers but also better productivity as well as inflation to offset a deficit. In a well-managed growing economy deficit spending and carrying debt is actually healthy as long as it doesn’t impact either availability of revenues (dur to debt servicing) or consumer confidence (downgrading Treasury bonds and bills or the equivalent). Any money put into deficit spending on useful things such as education, infrastructure, basic and applied research, foreign development aid, et cetera should be offset by increased future gross domestic product and new markets. And managed growth is a crucial aspect of any viable industrial economy.

As an example, some very ignorant people complain about the money spent in the post-WWII Marshall Plan and equivalent in Japan and Korea, even though those expendatures have paid for themselves many times over in building robust markets for the US to sell products to, and later as trading partners to engage in tradeand shift segments of our economy to when industroes such as steel mills became too expensive or polluting. Similar cases could be made for the Eisenhower Interstate Highway System, the National Parks System, the Federal Aviation Administration and civil avaiation infrastructure, the Tennessee Valley Authority and Rural Electrification Administration, et cetera.

The problem with a declining population, as others have noted, is that there are fewer productive workers and greater expendatures on social and medical entitlements to support post-work retirees. It also puts a stress on the workforce and medical system to support people who require more per capita services, particularly since advances in medical science and public health allow people to live longer into retirement. This may be offset to a greater or lesser extent by improvements in automation which reduce workforce pressure and increase general revenues per capita worker although that will require a more progressive tax system to obtain increased revenues from worker efficiencies akin to the Value Added Tax system of the European Union.

Capitalism—the investment of private equity into production to generate a return on investment—is not an “inherently invalid system”, but unregulated laissez faire market economy with a so-called “flat” tax with massive economic inequity and a handful of people benefitting enormously from the economy while paying a proportional pittance back into the general revenue is not sustainable. Investors should make a profit because that spurs on progressive development, but the notion that private entities are the leaders in technical and social innovation ignores the enormous investment in education, infrastructure, basic research, et cetera, which enable producers to employ effective workers.

In the foreseeable future, assuming populations in the developed nations continue to decline (as they need to in order to reduce overstress on precious natural resources), automation (which is again predicated on technical advances supported by public funding and infrastructure) will allow continued progress in productivity even with a declining workforce, although how fast that will occur and the impact upon economies in the interim is unclear to everyone. However, some jobs, particularly those requiring social connection and other tasks not amenable to automation and machine cognition, will still require a predominately human workforce so it isn’t as if people are going to be thrown completely out of work; they just have to shift to different vocations similar to the shift away from labor intensive agriculture in the early to mid 20th Century into industrial and intellectual (“blue collar” and “white collar” respectively). That will result in social upheaval, which is unavoidable, but given how much better life is for people in the developed world today as compared to a century ago in nearly every metric, we can hold some optimisim about a post-industrial future where work involves more personal involvment rather than just putting in hours, days, and years until retirement.

Stranger

You’re assuming that fewer people would be sharing the same amount of resources. What you’re missing is that, ultimately, the only resource that matters is people.

Put it this way: Does Ohio, or Pennsylvania, or Virginia, or Oregon, have a higher standard of living than the US? Each state is much smaller than the US, true… but each state also has less resources, in about the same proportion.