I’m not sure I understand the point of the OP, either, but since we’re discussing weightlifting / bodybuilding, I’ll add:
I’m pretty sure that anyone who is interested in bodybuilding knows that the pros are all on PEDs. In fact, most people assume that everyone who is strong / muscular is on PEDs.
There are lots of people who have average to mediocre genetics for building muscle, and still lift. I’m one of them. I train harder than almost anyone else at the gym (except my partner), and I know I’ll never be huge, but I do it because I love it, and I want to see what I can do naturally.
As for squats, I think doing them in the rack is better than doing them without, especially when doing heavy weight. I can set the safety stops to a position that gives me full range, and not have to worry about getting stuck with the bar on my shoulder. This way, I can do a full squat, which is not something I would try without the rack.
Getting ripped without drugs: We’ll see what I can do. After my surgery I got really lean, just by eating clean. I’m trying to do that again, and keep as much mass as possible by following basically the same diet but cutting my carbs. Seems to be working so far - I can now see my abs without flexing, and my B.F. is still going down. I suspect that it will be impossible to get super dry without drugs, but, so what.
“Fitness”: It’s a good question. There’s no one metric for fitness. Probably thePresident’s Fitness test is as good as any. But, most people who are serious about exercise have a specific goal - a running time / distance, a weightlifting goal, or bodybuilding competition. Just because that doesn’t fit into everyday functional fitness doesn’t make it stupid, especially if it’s motivating.
I hate exercising. I’ve always hated it. I was the clumsy fat kid in school.
That said, I now exercise 4-6 days per week, and have for the past 6 years. My doctor said if I didn’t start, I’d probably have a heart attack by age 50. I do a variety of things. I jog a couple of miles a couple of days per week. I do barre and Pilates. I do a strength training class once a week. I do this new class called vipr, which is a blend of cardio, strength and coordination. I do a weekly hour long bootcamp. I hate every minute of it. But I feel good when I’m done. And I think that’s what really counts.
I have lost weight, but that’s wasn’t the biggest benefit. More importantly, my blood pressure is down, and my cholesterol is down. I no longer have sleep apnea. I no longer have heartburn. I no longer have muscle discomfort that keeps me awake when I’m trying to sleep.
There was an interesting article recently on the Daily Beast. It suggests that exercise should help you learn to move better. I agree with this concept, which I why I do such a variety of exercise evert week. I hope that if I live to my 70s and 80s that I’ll still be able to walk, get up and down, lift everyday objects and just be able to take care of myself. I know that if I would have continued my sedentary ways that I would have relegated myself to needing to use a walker or worse down the line. I was already starting to have a hunched back from sitting all the time, and I was only in my early 40s.
I don’t think you did! I work as a medical interpreter and have helped people with arthritis. I know it’s a bad card to be dealt. But it sounds as though you have been playing your hand as best you can.
When it comes to fitness, it seems that doing several small things can have a proportionately substantial benefit: i.e., that old 80/20 rule. So keep up the good work!
I could have been clearer! Exercise is a big product, and there are many, many entities out there selling it: Pilates studios, Crossfit boxes, personal trainers, gyms, doctors with books–you name it. When people sell something, they always have one thing in common: they are trying to instill hope with respect to the outcome, and that leads to overselling and just plain lying. And I think the biggest lie is that there is a system that “just works” or has some mystical powers that another system doesn’t. I’d say the biggest offender in this regard right now is Crossfit, which is accurately called cult-like by many.
Yeah, the “goodness” of exercise is contextual, isn’t it? We have much different health expectations than in even the 19th century, when the idea of exercise other than getting some fresh air on a walk would have made no sense to anybody. Further, we are trying to achieve looks based on body images that only really started to gel starting in the 1930s or so (when bathing suits started to show more than nothing, and men started to be seen with their shirts off). Bodybuilding culture only took off post-War, and cardio as a thing for anyone but athletes really only came into being with the jogging craze in the 70s. So it’s all quite recent.
But then the question remains whether cardio is really good for you at all beyond a certain point.
I think if PEDs are being used, that’s definitely true. I think it’s foolish for the average dude to try to gain a lot of mass beyond the noob gains, which will usually come with fat loss and normal eating. “Try” is the key word here. Keep lifting and eating normally for moderate gains over time.
I don’t know about anyone else, but here are the basic two reasons why I exercise:
I need to get tired enough to shut off the crazy.
I’m not getting any younger and I want to make sure a lack of fitness/health doesn’t limit what I can do. A couple of weeks ago my wife’s family went to a national park for a weekend and they barely got out of their cars, while my wife and I climbed a (minor) mountain and got to see all kinds of cool things that the rest of the family didn’t.
I’ve got enough experience with exercise to know how to get these two tasks done.
I don’t think most people know the extent of it. For example, you will see online debates as to whether Christian Bale and Chris Hemsworth went on gear for their transformations into Batman and Thor, respectively. Unless these two are among the most physiologically gifted of the human race, yes, yes they did. But people will say, Naw, maybe not, who knows? The problem is that they (and all the aesthetic models and movie stars and fake natty bodybuilders, etc. etc.) end up setting the body image standard for males (and of females with respect to males), and it’s incredibly unrealistic.
Yes, the journey can be quite enjoyable when expectations are realistic, and yours seem eminently so.
If you can see your abs, then mission accomplished, no? I have a friend on FB who has stated his goal to be 7% body fat. Duuuude. And he’s not even a bodybuilder: just a guy who is getting a superiority complex based on the initial success of his low-carb diet (and he was a thin-ish young guy to begin with). Six-packs were hardly a thing until the late 60s. Even if you look at 50s and early 60s bodybuilders, they were rarely shredded to that degree.
I basically agree but… some goals are stupid! Unless marathon running is your sport in which you hope to actually make money or achieve amateur glory in the Olympics, etc., running a marathon as a fitness goal is objectively stupid. Impressive, yes. Good for the body in any objective sense, no.
I’m pleased to hear you say that veteran Crossfitter women can’t do pull-ups. I never could when we took the fitness test in gym class, and I felt like a fat failure because of that. There were always skinny girls who could do a dozen. I just matured faster
That was just one woman, but here’s another data point:
Pullups are a hard exercise. You are lifting your entire body weight with your lats and biceps. And what you say about skinny women is also true of skinny men: the exercise “rewards” a lean physique, and the more muscle in your abs and core, the worse you are going to do. The most I’ve ever done is 7 nice bar-to-chest reps (with the palms facing me–I injured each biceps on separate occasions with the grip in the opposite direction and I’ll never do that again…).
Probably the vast majority of men cannot do a single pullup, and probably not even 1/100 women can do one. The upper body strength just isn’t going to be there for most women, nor should such be expected.
This. Not once ever has exercise felt good. Not running, not lifting, not swimming, not playing basketball, not cardio, not dancing or anything else i might have tried ever.
I would merely counsel thus: If you don’t enjoy the exercise in toto, then perhaps consider cutting back? Per the 80/20 rule, you may be getting all of those benefits from a portion of what you’re doing and not the “whole shebang.” You could try cutting out a piece that you particularly loathe and see if you feel any different.
Then you’ll never do a pull-up again. What you are doing are chin-ups and they’re quite a bit easier than pull-ups. Dont mean to rain on your 7 tho; that’s still more than most men can do.
To a large degree, yes. That said, there are at least some general things that almost everyone should do, barring limitations. And even with limitations, there’s usually modified versions that one can do. For example, squats are an essential exercise, but if one is lacking in flexibility, stability, or has certain chronic injuries, there are tons of modifications, high-bar, low-bar, front squat, dumbells, to managing range of motion, or even similar types of exercises that can get similar results.
The key point here is you can’t just go to bodybuilding.com, pick a routine that someone with the physique you want follows and expect the same results. You have to consider your bodytype, your body’s strengths and weaknesses, and make adjustments
Agreed. This is why it’s important to consider training goals and design workouts accordingly. If you are training to, say, run a marathon, lots of time on the stair master isn’t going to be ideal. At the same time, there are some exercises that are going to have broader application, often particularly compound movements like squats and deadlifts, and some that are going to be much more limited, like doing some kind of machine bench press.
Also agreed. And, to a large extent, I think our culture’s obsession with weight/fat loss is missing the forest for the trees. Core strength, functional strength, cardiovascular health, flexibility, etc. are FAR more important. I personally know people that are competitive body builders and, frankly, most people don’t find that type of physique all that appealing, yet a lot of people still seem to have that as a training goal. Speaking for myself, I’m very happy with my physique, but I still get weird comments from those same competitive body builders when it comes up that I DON’T want to get any bigger or get any leaner.
It actually seems to me that it’s REALLY hard at first adjusting to new exercises and movements, one’s body gets used to it and makes significant progress, then one starts to plateau. In fact, I’m often warning people after taking extended breaks or working out for the first time to take it easy for the first several weeks because it’s easy to get injured or just plain overtrain.
Any high-impact or repetitive impact has increased risk of injury. This is why it’s critical to really figure out what one’s goals are and follow an appopriately designed routine. If you’re not training for a marathon, extended running will put a lot of strain on knees and ankles for not really any meaningful purpose. If you’re not trying to get into powerlifting, going really heavy is just that much more stress and risk for injury for no real good reason.
Agreed. Cardio is critically important, but like anything, it can be over done. Yes, the human body is designed for running, but not for extreme distances, and with modern knowledge, technology, and equipment, there are ways to get similar or superior results with lower risk.
Overtraining isn’t just something that applies to cardio. I’ve seen plenty of weight trainers overdo it and throw up. It takes just as much restraint to know when one’s body has reached that point where any more is too much and not crossing it as it does to cross it and damage the body. I used to do that when I was younger, cardio to the point of getting light-headed, continuing to lift heavy weight despite injury, etc. Not only do I get fewer injuries and enjoy it more when I DON’T overdo it, but I get better results. When I overdid my cardio, I didn’t get any better, when I backed off a bit and worked up to it, I wasn’t that long until I was able to surpass what I was previously struggling at.
Again, this comes back to goals. If you’re actually doing activities that require intense cardio, it’s important to train for it. Personally, I like a certain amount of intense cardio from time to time, but my everyday life doesn’t need me to be able to run 5 miles in 30 minutes, so I don’t train like that anymore. However, I can do everything I do most days (outside the gym) without losing my breath, and when called upon, can do more intense things like carry heavy objects up flights of stairs or run/walk a few miles.
I’ve met a couple people like that that I believe them when they say they aren’t using any drugs, but even still, they often are using lots of supplements and fat burners and are on ridiculously strict diets. Still, looking like that ISN’T healthy. For instance, most of us are probably aware of how, say, Hugh Jackman looks as Wolverine, Henry Cavil as Superman, Ben Affleck as Batman, Chris Evans as Captain America, etc. What you DON’T hear is that they deliberately limit their shirtless physique shots often to the minimum, it takes weeks of preparation for it, and they’re often starving, seriously dehydrated, and often suffering from severe headaches, cramps, nose bleeds, and other fairly serious issues during that time. In fact, I recall reading an interview with Hugh Jackman about The Wolverine where he was as jacked as he’d been for any film, but during those particular scenes, he was so dehydrated that it was giving him migraines and he had trouble even seeing or focusing for the scenes and he’d have to take breaks laying in the dark just to keep going.
In short, absolutely these idealized male bodybuilder/superhero physiques are every bit as unrealistic and unhealthy as the hollywood/supermodel women’s physiques are.
The old school approach to body types, which while not super accurate, is still a decent rule of thumb, hits on that with endomorphs, mesomorphs, and ectomorphs. For most people, there’s an inverse relationship between how easy it is to gain muscle and lose fat, the easier one is, the harder the other usually is. There are some exceptions, but you probably already know, from your own life experience and family history, where you fall and can use that to make some reasonable goals for what you can achieve.
Yes, and this is a myth that really irritates me, that women lifting weights will make them bulky and “mannish”. Sure, to a certain extent that’s achieveable if one actually desires it and trains for it, but as a general rule, women won’t get bulky and will have a lower strength peak than men. Women’s physiology and leverages are also different (wider hips, knee angles, narrower shoulders, etc.) which will also result in impacting how much strength and muscle can be built.
Already touched on above, but generally yes. Minimum healthy bodyfat, even for highly athletic people, is typically higher than what we see on “jacked” people, and even that type is gotten from lots of intense training and tight diets. Those mass monster types are, no matter how “ideal” their physique is, are typically actually at their weakest and most unhealthy when they’re on stage or doing photo shoots.
I ABSOLUTELY disagree here. Squats are an essential exercise precisely because it’s a natural complex movement that applies to almost everything one does. There’s a reason that squats/deadlifts/benchpress are the 3 powerlifting lifts, and they’re a core part of training for olympic lifts too, since it directly strengthens all those lifts.
First, it’s only really uncomfortable and dangerous if you’re doing improper technique or doing too much weight. Similarly, it doesn’t require a spotter unless you’re going heavy (which isn’t necessary) and you don’t know how to fail properly. Yes, I used to hurt myself squatting from bad technique and ego lifting, but I haven’t hurt myself doing it in a long time, other than the occassional slight tweak on my knee or back, which is more from lack of attention to my body positioning when racking/unracking, focusing on preparing for the lift rather than on the weight on my back at the moment.
It’s not comparable to legpress because of where the load is and how the body moves. Yes, I enjoy leg press, but it heavily loads the quads, a lot less on the glutes, almost nothing on the hamstrings, and doesn’t engage any of the core or stablizers at all.
And deadlifts are also a core essential exercise and I use to not do them because I hated them too. When I got back into them, after working on my technique, it wasn’t long before I noticed strength in my core that I just didn’t have before and it even made noticeable impact on other lifts like my squats. But a big part of that is because of how all those muscles work together.
Yes, squats and deadlifts are superficially similar and one helps strengthen the other, but the interplay of the muscles is different. Deadlifts, done properly, focuses primarily on the posterior chain, squats will get much more quad and glute. In fact, it’s easy to tell when someone overdoes one or the other because I’ll see squat-focused people (like me) naturally want to put too much leg into deadlifts, or deadlift focused people try to put too much back/posterior chain into squats.
And bench press is essential too. I don’t do barbell bench, partially because of dependence on spotter, but I do a lot of work with dumbells and cables (screw machines), because those hit more of the core and stablizer muscles. I might not have as massive of a chest as I might from doing barbell but, again, my goals are on getting the core strength and stablization, not the raw strength or mass. You’re really doing yourself a disservice by avoiding complex movements like squats and presses, particularly in the context you mentioned above of how doing an exercise makes one good at that exercise. Getting muscles working together in complex movements gives those exercises greater range of application.
Everyone should have SOME sort of resistance work in their exercise regimen, the amount depends on their goals. If one is training for certain sports, it needs to be there, but will be more or less depending, higher for a sport like football or baseball, lower for something like tennis or endurance sports like running and bicycling.
And there’s more benefits too, higher energy level, mood stablization (most studies show exercise is more beneficial than typically prescribed drugs), sharper mind, higher productivity, needing less sleep (making the “I don’t have time” argument moot).
A question about pullups, hope you don’t mind the hijack: does it “count” if you need to do them without ever, ever, ever letting your elbows go completely open?
Both pullups and climbing the knotted rope were things I had no problem doing (haven’t tried either in decades) so long as I didn’t let my elbows “lock”, but “locking elbows” appears to be one of those things that whose who don’t have the problem won’t even accept it may exist. I mean, I would have been happy to accept that I needed to do some more arm-strength exercises before trying a full pullup or climb, but being told that we were imagining the lock was never particularly helpful for those of us who had them.
Do you mean doing pull-ups from a dead hang, or don’t your elbows straighten completely at all? FWIW when I do pull-ups, I don’t let myself into a dead hang - I keep my elbows very slightly bent at the bottom. This is more to protect my rotator cuffs than my elbows.
Keep your shoulder blades pinched together throughout pull-ups/chin-ups. It is a lat exercise.
OK, you do them the way some of us had to do them; from a dead hang some of us just couldn’t figure out how. Thanks for the expression, I’m having a “learn new words day”!
Well yeah, those are from a dead hang to the chinup bar against my breast bone. No cheatsie-weatsies on those…
I can do and do do neutral-grip pull-ups as well, with the palms facing each other. I can do about as many of those as the chin-ups.
Sure, they’re “easier” in some sense because the true “pull-up” takes the bis out of the equation more. But that doesn’t mean that pull-ups are better because they are harder. They were bad for my body, so I don’t do them.
Do you do wide-grip?
My partner has me focused on wide-grip pull-ups, so that I can master the Muscle-up. I can do a few with 10 lbs strapped on. He’s a beast - he can do them with 90 lbs!
One of the problems with exercise for me is that I know it’s going to make me feel really good, but I also know I’m going to hate every minute of it, and that often stops me.
For example, last winter on a couple of occasions I had to shovel at least a ton of snow–literally, a ton, I did the math–off of my driveway. Of course I hated it and grumbled to myself the whole time but afterwards I felt fantastic for the rest of the day. But what kept me going was not that I was going to feel fantastic for the rest of the day but the fact that my driveway must be clear, and that nobody else would do it to my standards. I think some kind of weightlifting would be good for this feeling, but I don’t think I could make myself do it (because I’m lazy and because there would not be results I could see, unlike my driveway).
I did a yoga class for awhile, and that also made me feel good. But the advantage was that it was early in the morning so I got there when I was just barely conscious, and once I was there I suffered through the rest of the class. Everybody else seemed to like what we were doing. I was looking at the clock every minute wondering if we were done yet or if I could just stretch out on my mat and take a nap. I don’t know what was so unpleasant about it, except that it was boring. (I do know what was unpleasant about shoveling snow–it was cold.)
Tennis is fun, dancing is fun (Zumba, Cize Live, tap, ballet, dancing around my kitchen), walking my dog is fun (well, and the dog insists on it), swimming is fun, so I do those things regularly. My “fitness goals” are pretty much “feel good” and “look good naked.” I think the fact that I’m well into my 60s and very healthy has more to do with good genes, though.
