Remarkable comment considering that you were the one who first hijacked the thread.
:dubious:
The difference being that I have actually read anti-Mormon works, whereas you apparently haven’t read any Bible analysis. “Revelations” is a common and annoying error, but I’ve never seen it in Bible commentaries.
:rolleyes: I know it’s mostly a verbal error that rarely sneaks into print. It was intended as a play on your comment, son. You know, like a joke; something to cut through the dead seriousness of this thread. Yeesh!
We have the archaeological event of the century (comparable to Howard Carter’s discovery of the tomb of Tutankahmen), and NOBODY pays any attention? Ancient Hebrews migrating to North America? Ancient egyptian writings found in upstate New York? Prof. Anthon must have been a dope…why would’nt he want to cover himself in glory…the first scientist to read ancient egyptian texts found in the USA?
Yep, there’s a reason that scholars didn’t flock to Palmyra NY…there wasn’t any artifacts, no texts, and joseph Smith made the whole thing up!
As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Nobody seems to realize that the discovery of a single egyptian (geniune ) hyroglyphic text in NY state would interest a lot of scientists…so we can safely conclude that nothoing of the kind did happen.
You know, I’m sorry for hijacking it, emarkp. I didn’t intend for it to be a full-fledged hijack, I just didn’t want it to fall off the page before someone with knowlege answered.
I’m sorry I haven’t answered anything today–the baby’s been sick and I had to take her to prompt care with a 103 fever. So I’m kind of tired, and my brain quit working a few hours ago. Maybe tomorrow.
Don’t be sorry, dangermom. Your baby comes first, last, and always. 103? Wow. That’s not good, especially for a baby.
I hope you can bring it down.
It did not come up, here, becuse this is a different sort of crowd than you are apparently used to dealing with. Generally, anyone who drags Rev 22:18-19 out to make a point, here, (any point) gets laughed at pretty heartily.
But is it a good thing to let lies “as thin as paper” get spread all over the place, just in order not to offend some pleasant individuals who had swallowed said lies? It’s not like Mormons are quietly sitting in thier chapels or temples without attempting to recruit new members, who are going to be lied to too…
Should this principle also apply to people believing in, say, astrology? I’m sure there are friendly posters believing in it. Should we abstain from criticizing this other “thin as paper” lie in order not to piss them off?
That attitude is why we haven’t had any religious wars over here, clair. Some religious violence, as the Mormons will be happy to remind us (I see their Hauns Mill massacre and Carthage City lynchings and raise the Mountain Meadows massacre), but nothing like the Thirty Years War. It is also why the US has always been fertile ground in which to plant new religions.
So you’re calling all people who believe in God liars?
Are you calling me a liar?
What can anyone do to prevent the spread without trampling on people’s rights?
freedom of religion doesn’t mean your beliefs can’t be challenged. It means the government can’t pass laws that prohibit your worship. It means others can’t persecute you for gathering and worshiping as you choose.
I believe Clair was saying that if any religion publishes its beliefs and actively tries to convert people and convince others that their beliefs are right and/or true, then they better be prepared to defend their beliefs. I heartily agree.
I respect peoples rights to worship as they choose and believe what they will.
I have dear friends in LDS and RLDS {now called Community of Christ} and I wouldn’t stomp on their feelings or beliefs. If they tried to convert me or raised the issue I’ll tell they exactly what I think. This doesn’t just apply to the BOM. There is a lot of myth and tradition in Religion in general and I think we have every right to challenge it when people try to spread their “truth” It’s called tuff love.
Well, sure. We can challenge their beliefs, but if they stick by them, what then? He used the term “let” which could mean “let them do it unchallenged” or could mean “let them do it at all.” How far should the challenges extend?
I won’t speak for Clair but I think we need to support free speech but not let the context of “religous freedom” excuse their behavior. Example;
In my home town a religous group would post people on the street corners and read VERY loudly from the Bible. It drove buisiness away from local stores and diners. I think they should have been arrested for disturbing the peace and made to stop, but becuase of the religous freedom aspect the police didn’t do anything.
For the most part I would hold the challenge to the printed and spoken word.I think the process of discussion and debate is very helpful in defining and refining our beliefs.I support peoples right to worship as they choose but when their choices encroach on others lives in some way they should be prepared to accept the consequences without useing God as an excuse. Think about it. That’s what the terrorists are doing.
For what it’s worth, here’s a thirty-year-old book called Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon? (well, parts of it). As I recall, they argue that large chunks of TBoM actually came from an unpublished novel that Smith had gotten his hands on. There is also some stuff on the Pearl of Great Price/“Reformed Egyptian” flap.
Like I said, pretty much every Latter-day Saint has heard all these arguments before and seen them debunked. No one is going to destroy our “frail little beliefs” by repeating the same stuff I, at least, have heard dozens of times. Yes, there are many books out there purporting to debunk the Book of Mormon. Their arguments tend not to hold water.
Let’s not descend into a trainwreck over the unsatisfactory definition of “lie”.
Usually the word is used to mean “knowing untruth”, but it can also be used to mean “untruth, knowing or not”. One can for example speak of someone spreading a lie, meaning not that the spreader of the lie knows they are spreading an untruth but that they are unknowingly spreading someone else’s knowing untruth.
I don’t think that anyone is suggesting that any Morman in this thread, or 99.9% of modern Mormans in general, are liars in the knowing untruth sense.
Yes, and to call all who believe in God, he’d better have a proof of the nonexistence of God handy, or shut his yap.
Problem is, such a proof isn’t possible.
There are no such thing as Mormans (at least not that I know of).
Hard atheists who think they know the truth value of all spirituality irritate me, because their claims are impossible to prove, and in fact require more faith than that of a Christian, Hindu, Muslim, etc.
Bolding mine. The BoM closes with “Moroni’s challenge” for the reader to pray for spiritual confirmation that the BoM is true. Described affirmations run the range from subtle feelings of peace to overwhelming joy.
Joseph Smith called the Book of Mormon the keystone of the church. If the BoM is true, the prophecies it contains about the restoration of the Lord’s true church in the Latter Days is true; ergo, Joseph Smith was a true prophet and his further translations of other documents are true. If we agree that a “burning of the bosom” after taking Moroni’s challenge is ultimate proof of the book’s/church’s truth, wouldn’t a lack of said burning indicate their falseness?
As a Mormon missionary, I would counter this arguement by telling people that they needed to pray with “pure intent”. No burning didn’t mean the book was false, it only meant the reader prayed under false pretenses or needed to study more.
It was this kind of circular reasoning that contributed to my break from Mormonism. I agree in large part that looking for physical proof in sprirtual matters is pointless, but logic is another matter. BTW I wasn’t excommunicated. I just haven’t gotten around to having my name removed from the church’s records (not worth the conflict with family - yet.)
I just ordered the new H.P. Lovecraft collection. Perhaps Cthutlu has the answer. I’ll read the book, pray about it and let you know. A cheap shot? Yes, but it’s not too far removed from the logic of Moroni’s challenge.
Eran, this is not meant as an attack. I quoted your post because I think it raises some interesting aspects about proof of Book of Mormon’s truth that other Dopers may not be aware of. I’ll understand if you choose to label me a bitter ex-mo who tortures kittens and prays to Baal in his basement. Not making any presumptions, it just seems to be the standard treatment dished out by Mormons to apostates. I’m sure you’re a fine human being and we’d get along nicely in person as long as we avoided religion as a topic.
I AM looking forward to spending next weekend in Vegas, though! 
Oooh, are we a bit touchy and defensive? At all?