Really, any bunch? That’s an outrageous, sweeping generalization and you are showing your bigotry and ignorance (kind of tiresome, isn’t it).
Yes, but if there wasn’t a religious aspect to this, the war over who would succeed Moh’d would have ended and been forgotten in history books a long, long time ago.
Hardly. Nations have become divided for one reason or another since forever and it continues today. Wikipedia has a nice long list of divided nations. Click on each set and follow their separate entries and you’ll see that fighting over territory and power is a constant and that it’s rarely religion that’s the issue.
See, your saying something is so doesn’t make it so. History, if anyone cares to actually read it, clearly contradicts the notion that religion ‘causes’ wars or is/has been the main cause of wars.
Maybe you should take a look at the link you provided. Do you honestly think that the issues that caused Pakistan to separate from India is based upon any other reason than religion? How about Palestine as I stated earlier? Most of the other countries listed are not currently fighting with each other or are localized to that specific location. Are the Abkhazia causing problems anywhere but in Georgia?
The OP points out a weakness in our system of liberty. It is a weakness that Bin Ladan has mentioned, “I will use your freedom to destroy it.”
How do we go about defending against it? Well in our society we have moved away from religion, which IMHO is the opposite of what many people crave. A strong religion is exactly what they are looking for, and our western society is pushing back with very little to no religion as their answer. IMHO is it a doomed strategy.
Yeah, let’s protect liberty by constraining it with religion. Brilliant idea.
Well, he’s wrong. Only we can destroy our freedoms.
You didn’t really answer the question unless you’re positing that Jesus is gonna come out of the clouds and start smiting people.
As for moving away from religion…who’s fault is but them if they crave religion but stray from the path? And why do I have the creeping suspicion that when you talk about moving back to religion you don’t mean in a private, personal way but you want to involve me too?
Do you agree with the lady in the movie Jesus Camp?
Do you mean society in the U.S.? If so, when did it move away from religion? It’d be nice if that happened, but I just don’t see it.
I may have misquoted O.B.L. he may have indicated that he will cause us to destroy our freedoms, but that is besides the point. On the most basic level, our freedoms are a result of mob rule, or the tyriny of the majority. If people in O.B.L.'s camp get to be the majority and organized as such our system is defeated.
I’m not placing blame, our modern system was a good try, but flawed and is currently is being destroyed, it may be as good as we could do.
I could want something without demanding or expecting it. My own personal views is that only God Himself can call you to Him. If He wants your involvement that is between you and Him, and you have free will to chose.
I have no idea, I haven’t seen it.
This is true. However, since the percentage of the United States population who claim to be Muslim is practically a rounding error I don’t think we need to worry about that, even if all of them wished to institute radical Sharia law. Maybe some European countries will have to worry about that down the road due to their low birth rate but for us? Nah. If anything we need to worry about the great Catholic threat from the south. 
I was referring to our modern societies in general, but the US is one of them. As for you just don’t see it, well I can point to many examples, but you would just say they are isolated cases.
Actually I did not talk about moving back to religion, I only stated that moving away from religion will fail and is currently failing. You inferred that I would suggest moving towards religion is the solution, but that would be a incorrect assumption.
It is more of thou shalt reap what thy sow, eliminating/reducing religion has resulted in what we have now. I am not implying that the process is reversible.
Heh he, touche. Just shows how careful one needs to be in order to keep from saying things you don’t actually mean.
How is making the US more Christian going to prevent Muslim extremists from attacking us?
I don’t exactly agree with this reasoning, but I think it may have more merit than earlier responders have acknowledged. It is definitely true that modern Western commitment to secularism (or its French relative “laicism”) in civil society has provided an avenue of attack for religious fundamentalists of all stripes. It is a commonplace not only among militant Islamists but also among many right-wing American Christians to argue that modern societies are not really religiously tolerant but actively anti-God, promoting a consciously atheistic social agenda along the lines of Communist materialism.
How do we negotiate this issue? How do we combine an unyielding commitment to secular governance and religious pluralism in public life with reassuringly strong support for individual freedom of religion? State support for an established church, a la the English model, is not the way to go, IMHO. State mandates for eschewing all manifestations of individual religious belief in public life, as in banning the hijab in schools a la the French model, is also not the way to go, IMHO. What strategies will work?
I thought “our society” was made up of people. In fact, any society is made up of people. How can they work against each other?
Is some kind of secret elite at work here? Please, tell us more.
I don’t agree with the original argument, but I think that there is something in what you are saying. There is a lack of a clear policy for how religious expression can play out in the public arena; e.g., things like Chrtistmas carols in school plays, menoras and creches in front of city hall, bible study groups in public buildings, etc.
When I was growing up, my public school class started with the Catholic version of the Lord’s Prayer. As a Protestant it caused me consternation and I can’t imagine how the Jewish kids felt. I was really glad when teacher-led prayer was banned. On the other hand, when schools are so skittish about SOCAS that they don’t let traditional Christmas carols be sung at school plays it seems we have gone over the top.
In addition to clearing up the legal issues, there needs to be more real tolerance by both sides. It’s just rude to expect people to sit through an “invocation” at school events. If you feel prayer is that important then do it in the car on the way to the event or do it silently in your seat. On the other hand people need to stop getting bent out of shape at Christmas carols, Easter egg hunts, etc. And also stop this pseudo tolerance where minority religions and ethnicities can do no wrong yet Christians are closely scrutinized at every step.
You are, in my opinion, exactly right about the “Us versus Them” mentality that often dehumanizes “others” who are outside of a given group; but religion certainly facilitates this and is not constrained or tempered by reason or evidence; we can, hopefully, eventually come to a point where we as a species can scientifically demonstrate the folly of racism and although racism is still obviously extant, I do believe that education is making a difference generation by generation. There is light at the end of that tunnel, though it is still a long tunnel to navigate. Where is there any such opportunity for change in the arena of religious faith? If there is progress morally and ethically among believers, it is almost ALWAYS because the adherents are LESS faithful to the tenets of their faith, not MORESO. Western Christians no longer condone stoning as a punishment for adultery, which is not a result of the OT laws being amended (Jesus himself warned against meddling with the established laws) but because education and tolerance have snuck in, ninja-like, and supplanted such barbarity with mercy and reasonable legal recourse if needed. Jesus would likely be appalled that Christians today are so ignorant and/or defiant of OT law. But many Christians today are better people when they choose to ignore the biblical command that one should not suffer a witch to live; the more they abandon those aspects of their belief, the better for themselves and everyone around them.
I live very close to the largest concentration of Afghanis in the US. Before 9/11, a Taliban representative came to talk at a storefront mosque, and a mini-riot broke out.
The police quashed it very quickly, and, I’ve heard, read the riot act to all involved. If bands of Islamic youth were roaming the streets around here trying to enforce Islamic law, they’d be in the slammer so fast their heads would spin. Thus, we have peace and tranquility, and when some psycho shot a Moslem woman near me, all people joined in outrage.
It seems that a zero-tolerance policy about violating secular rules is the answer. Of course a tiny percentage of people are causing problems, but if the authorities don’t slap them down, hard, how are the majority not going to be intimidated? Anyone have a problem about not allowing private enforcement of religious laws under the threat of violence? If Christian, Jewish of Zen Buddhist fundamentalists try the same thing, they should get slapped down just as hard.
From what I’ve read, this isn’t happening in some European nations, possibly from a misplaced desire for religious tolerance. But does anyone disagree that this kind of policy (which no doubt would meet with outrage at the beginning) would result in a safer and better society?
Sez who? From where I stand, the existence of religion in an otherwise enlightened world is the crux of the problem. People aren’t moving away from it quickly enough. They’re the ones causing the rift.