Defensive firearms training, police vs civilian and center mass

Actually, if you got shot in the hand, there is almost certain to be permanent impairment, and likely a loss of fingers. Although this is rarely show this in movies (the singular exception I can think of offhand is Bickle’s storming the brothel in Taxi Driver), even a cursory look at the anatomy of the hand shows that there is no place you could put a bullet that it won’t hit bone and tear tendons, and the hand is so full of nerves and so articulating that any kind of penetrating damage is pretty much guaranteed to damage something important. .

Stress conditions are caused by a combination of physical exertion (typically performing a series of burpees, pullups, or carrying heavy sandbags to exhaustion) followed by environmental stressors (being yelled at, blinded with strobe lights, playing Ride of the Valkyries over a megaphone, emerging from a darkened space into sunlight, having sand and grit blown at you). After the shooter is sufficiently stressed, he or she goes to the firing line, picks up and loads the weapon under careful supervision of an instructor to ensure that they aren’t so exhausted or distoriented that they are handling the pistol or rifle in an unsafe manner, and then performs a predefined shooting exercise, typically shooting at 3-5 targets at different ranges. I’ve never used sleep deprivation for this and I don’t think that would be a safe operating condition given some of the side effects (such as hallucination, disoreintation, et cetera).

Although these conditions are not really akin to actually being in a combat situation under fire, it gives a sense of how to ignore distractions and recognize when their perception or proprioception is reduced and compensate accordingly. If you train how you expect to fight, and do so exhaustively and habitually, you will fight as you have trained, and if having Wagner blasted at you at defining volume while a fan blows sand across your path doesn’t disturb you, some asshole screaming and firing randomly probably won’t, either, at least in theory. In reality, I’ve been told that you never know how you’ll respond to a genuine combat situation (which I’ve never been in) until you are actually there, but as long as you don’t panic or freeze, the training will reduce your stress load and allow you to make the simple decisions you need to make to come out alive.

As far as tactical assault simulations, we did a number of different scenarios. We didn’t have a full box (shoothouse enclosed by full berm) so we could only do three directions of shooting, and generally only allowed two live shooters on the course at once for liability and safety reasons. The shoothouse was configurable for different scenarios including front entry, top entry, and tubular assault (operating in a linearly confined space such as an aircraft fuselage). A lot of the work was actually practicing entry and placement (which could be done with a full team since we were using ‘blue guns’), and we’d typically do three to five walkthroughs on even a simple course before doing a live fire, starting with a slow-motion walkthough and speeding up every time, then switching roles and going through the whole thing again to give everyone a chance in a live fire position.

BTW, the stuff you see on television about dynamic entries, such as repelling through windows, kicking in a door and doing a tuck and roll and come up shooting, and that kind of nonsense ranks from highly exaggerated to complete fabrication. The goal of an entry is to get the shooters in position and neutralize any threat as efficiently as possible with zero friendly casualties. A shooter that gets injured, say, by flying face first through a plate of glass, or is out of position or injured because he threw himself into a piece of furniture is worse than useless; they’ve now compromised the entire entry plan, and without a plan what should be a controlled team effort becomes a free-for-all clusterfuck. Actually entries are generally slow, almost plodding affairs punctuated by brief flashes of shooting, hopefully only by the assault team, as the entire objective is to take the targets by surprise and maintain initiative. The final raid to capture Bin Laden as protrayed in Zero Dark Thirty is how an entry plan and houseclearing should work; quiet professionalism, gaining and maintaining initiative, applying overwhelming force, and good communications between teams will put defenders at a disadvantage despite being on home turf. Running around screaming and firing full auto through walls does not.

Stranger

Kopek said, “Departments and regions may vary but all the ones I know are trained to shoot to kill; which usually means center of mass”.

I was cop for 25 years and am now a trainer at an academy and I never heard anyone ever say “Shoot to kill” other than as a part of “We DO NOT shoot to kill! We shoot to stop the threat”. Now, if you hit where you are aiming, the person may very well die or suffer serious bodily harm but the intention is to stop them, not kill them.

You aim for center mass for two reasons. First, hit there will likely (eventually) cause the person to stop. Two, its incredibly hard to hit a small, probably moving object with a handgun round while in fear for your or somebody else’s life. Center mass is the biggest target.

Thinking it through beforehand, every way from Sunday and making a plan IMO is way better that waiting for the STHTF and then trying to decide what to do.

All the above is the best but like losing an engine on take off, practice is great but if you don’t think it through prior to EVERY takeoff that second of surprise may be one second too long.

You may not know I am armed but I make myself be constantly aware of it.

Congrats on getting your CCW permit, carry everyday and soon it will be second nature. Now that you are legally able to carry a weapon the words SHOOT TO KILL need to be stricken from your vocabulary. WE DON’T SHOOT TO KILL, WE SHOOT TO STOP THE THREAT. If the threat happens to die, we’ll that happens. If you are in a life threatening situation you continue to pull the trigger until the threat is no longer. Once the threat has ceased, you stop firing.

Trying to shoot a threat in the arm or leg is a bad idea for several reasons:

1: Handgun rounds are usually not one shot stoppers no matter what the movies tell us. To a person amped up on drugs or adrenaline a shot to the arm or leg will barely slow them down.

2: The reason you aim for center mass is that it is the easiest to hit. A moving arm or leg is a small target and difficult to hit, especially under stress.

3: If you are arrested trelling the police you were only trying to place a wound shot can put into question how much danger you were really in. If it was life threatening why we’re you not fighting for your life?

4: And a well placed shot to the leg can certainly be fatal, hit the femoral artery and a bleed out can happen in a few minutes.

Police are taught to aim for center mass the same as we are, because it presents us with the largest target.

Once again, congrats on your permit. I’m glad you have decided to protect yourself and your loved ones. Carry everyday single day and pray that you or I will never need to use our weapons on another human being, but give us the resolve to do so if it becomes necessary.

What he said. Sorry I regurgitated what you posted. I didn’t read all the post before I replied.

Yes, thank you. I’ve had good training, from an introduction class that started this whole thing in December, to private lessons plus the 16 hour CC course required by Illinois, and also a range my friend and I go to with a “Ladies Night” with instructors available, included in the lane fee. The word “kill” has never entered the vocabulary anywhere among any of the instructors. “Stop the threat” and “stay in the fight” when working on regaining/maintaining front sight during steady fire (my mod2 has a 3" barrel, so a bit of recoil to keep under control), have been the phrases I’ve heard most.

I’m improving, last range time was able to place 29 of 30 (one on the line) shots inside a 7" circle at 7 yards. All in the center? No. But I’ve yet to meet an adult with a chest smaller than 7" so I’ll take it!

Outstanding! Since I love talking firearms, what are you using for your EDC (everyday carry) weapon? I carry a Springfield XDs in 9mm. I’m extremely happy with it. My wife carries a Ruger LCP .380 when she carries. Trying to get her to carry everyday.

Previous thread in GQ on “shooting to wound” and what % bullshit it is.

Oh, one other thing I wanted to mention about shooting center mass. Every bullet that leaves your gun has a lawyer attached to it. Aim for what you can hit, center mass most likely. Sounds like your doing a great job in your marksmanship training.

It’s a Springfield XD9 mod2, 3" barrel, double stack magazine. XD® Series Handguns - Springfield Armory
I like it a lot. First gun, only gun for now. I went from zero to concealed carry in 6 months, and in Illinois it’s expensive. (Between private lessons, range time, the required class, licensing, gun and various holsters, I’m out well over $2,000.) I rented several before deciding on this one, plus tried three of my friend’s guns. Wallet needs some recovery time before I start considering which long slide 9mm I want for more accurate range plinking in the future, but something with a 6" barrel or darned close to that is what I want next.

My CCL instructor called me Annie Oakley. My friend wanted to play Battleship with some targets we found at Cabela’s. I beat her solidly even with sending the target 5 feet further down the range. She’s still mad about it. She’s been shooting longer than me and is the person who got me started!

I get why tactical assault would be more about sneaking than rappeling through windows or other flashy moves; It’s typically best for the enemy to go from not even knowing you’re around to being dead a second later.

The raid segment of that movie, if it’s anywhere near how it happened, still leaves me wondering about something: Once the team had landed near the compound, their enemies knew they were about to be attacked. To gain and maintain initiative, why didn’t it make more sense to quickly clear it by systematically flashbanging and clearing every room?

Sorry for double posting -

“quickly clear it” meaning the main building.

The more time the SEALs’ enemies had, knowing a team had landed, the more opportunity they had to rush out, throw grenades, shoot through walls, destroy intelligence, flee through possible tunnels or just blow themselves/the house up. So while I don’t doubt that plodding stealth is overall better, I’d like to know for what reasons it makes sense to keep using that when the enemy knows you’re trying to assault the building right now.

I had annual firearms training in every one of the twenty-seven years I worked so I can verify this was the way we were trained. Shotguns work the same inside or outside prisons so I would assume any difference in training policies reflected the way different states trained.

There was in incident where I once lived where the SWAT officer did deliberately shoot the bad guy’s pistol holding hand. There was video of the incident on all channels of local TV news. The bad guy was sitting in a lawn chair in an intersection. The SWAT guy was firing a scoped rifle from not more than 150’ away. Frankly, I can’t criticize him.

When I was an Asst Squad Leader, 2 of my duties were to 1) assign nick names to the FNGs and B) check them out on the M-1911A1. The LT didn’t care how many rungs they had on their Annie Oakley ladder. On the way to the range to check out this Noob, he started chatting me up to name him “Stallion”, cause that’s what they called him back home in Texas. Okay, he was built like a Nose Guard or a Tackle and we already had a guy that size I had named “Tiny”. Anyway, I got him to our range and set up a life sized silhouette 7.5 yards from the firing line, gave him a .45 with 7 rounds in the magazine and told him to put 7 in the x ring. He got a fairly good sized group, but they were all in the crotch. When I got him back to the squad area, I told him I considered naming him “Stallion”, but that had too many syllables, so his name from now on would be “gelding”.

Nice choice. I went with the XDs as it seems to conceal a bit better being a single stack. Although I sometimes wonder if I would have been better off with the higher capacity of the XD. But, I always carry two extra magazines, so I’m not worried about it.

I have to say I’ve been thoroughly impressed with the Springfield. I’ve shot a lot of different pistols. Everything from a M&P to a Glock and I prefer my Springfield to them all. I’ve got at least a thousand rounds through it and not a single stoppage of any kind. It’ll fire expensive ammo or the cheap Russian steel cased stuff all day long. The fiber optic sights are a nice touch and breaking it down to clean couldn’t be easier.

Great to hear you are accurate. The XD sure makes it easier to plant the lead where you want it.

A couple of my instructors have shot it and approved.

Right now, I’m dreaming a bit for the Sig Sauer p226 X-Six Master Series, there are several models and each around $3,000. http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductList/pistols-mastershop-series.aspx

One of the guns I tried from a friend was a Sig p320 compact with 4" barrel and concealed sized handle. I liked it the most of all the ones I tried, with the Springfield in second. I chose the Springfield because the price is a little lower, barrel a little shorter for fitting in to smaller spaces, but also because I’m female and have different ways I need to holster it, including compression, I prefer the trigger and grip safeties for making holstering/re-holstering less likely to cause negligent discharge.

I am aware of exactly once instance where a police sniper actually shot the weapon out of a person’s hand. Apparently without injury to the person.

Link

Sniper in prone stance, perp considerately holding weapon still in a ‘safe’ position.

I honestly feel bad for you ladies when it comes to bolstering options. Your clothing makes it very difficult. My wife choose a belt band, but it’s uncomfortable in the summer time. Not a big fan of off body carry. The Sig is a very nice weapon. A bit on the pricy side, but a great shooter.

If your wife (or anyone still reading is female or knows one who carries and is still looking for options) is interested in some alternatives, I have three I’ve pretty much settled on.

Purse holster (true, not most ideal, but I can put it in a locked drawer at work) - I buy bags specifically with a large body-facing compartment, which I carry cross-body, and this holster goes there. (not in the main compartment as the seller suggests) Cardinal rule when purse carrying, I’m never not touching the bag unless it’s locked up at work. In a restaurant or other situation where it’s odd to keep it cross-body, it goes on the floor between my feet with the strap around my knee. No Exceptions. Bags are nylon or leather so I can wipe floor dirt off. I can use a small luggage padlock to lock the compartment zipper to another zipper if needed, and I’m not buying a crazy expensive carry purse this way and have several bags that this fits into: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B015BU9UTA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Compression body wrap holster, “Lethal Lace” which I wear most comfortably just under my bra with the gun under my left arm. Perfect for close-fitting, stretchy clothing: http://lethallace.com/collections/womens-holsters
And the video for it is kinda fun: Best Concealed Carry Holster For Women - YouTube

And finally the on-body but on the outside favorite from Warrior Creek - which I haven’t figured out how to wear at work without garnering attention so it goes in a locked drawer when I’m there, but it’s SO GREAT for just running errands and, well, anywhere else a “not fanny pack” can be worn. I LOVE IT (the Uptown Warrior Pack, spendiest of the choices but oh so worth it!): http://warrior-creek.com/products/copy-of-warrior-pack-underground-8-way-bag-black
Plus another fun silly video (there are a couple others, too): The Warrior Pack Concealed Carry Bag - No other bag compares! - YouTube

Hate to say this but that just screams “I’m carrying a gun”.