Strawman.
Let’s put it this way. If an Atheist Judge installed a plaque in the courthouse that said in bold letters GOD DOES NOT EXIST, that too would be a constitutional violation. The rule applies both ways. No religious viewpoint can be given preference by the government, whether it be Atheism, or Christianity, or Hinduism, Islam, or Lekatt’s personal theology.
Are you comparing the plight of blacks under Jim Crow to the “plight” of religious minorities in America today? I don’t get it. I’m Jewish. Jews never had to sit on the back of the bus. We didn’t have separate schools, separate water fountains, etc. We weren’t resticted from signing certain contracts. We weren’t prevented from voting
The reinterpretation of the 14th Amendment was a part of ending segregation and discrimination against blacks. But, there’s no parallel problem for religious minorities. (Except perhaps for poor John Ashcroft and a few Roman Catholic judges. ;)).
Furthermore, it’s not like a reinterpretation is needed to prevent some religious cabal from controlling America. The country has been moving toward greater openness, greater diversity, and greater opportunities for religious minorities.
What I was saying is that your arguments concerning the relative novelty of the “reinterpretation” of the Establishment Clause and the functioning of the country prior thereto could be applied equally to the “reinterpretation” of the Fourteenth Amendment and the functioning of the country prior thereto. And both are meritless because they ignore the discrimination against those whose rights were adversely affected.
And the fact that you, personally, may not have experienced an act of religious discrimination does not mean that they didn’t happen to Jews and others. There was a time not too long ago when major universities imposed “Jewish quotas” to limit the number of Jewish students attending. Even as recently as 1960, some questioned whether John Kennedy could really serve as President because he had to answer to a higher authority in the form of the Pope. As recently as 2000, a Chicago suburb intervened to prevent the sale of a church property to a mosque. This was before September 11, 2001. There is a fertile history of religious discrimination in this country, and a fertile field to be plowed.
**
And that’s a nice trend and we hope it will continue. But there are powerful people who firmly believe that Christians and only Christians are qualified to govern this country. Pat Robertson, for example, has been quoted as saying this, and he commands a lot of support and clout within the party that currently controls Congress and the Presidency. There are people who firmly believe that Muslims are inherently anti-American, and support a blanket recission of the rights of non-citizen (or even citizen) Muslims to live in the United States. Some are best-selling authors and darlings of the conservative press. So there are powerful forces that really hate religious pluralism, and command a fair amount of support.
You also ducked my point about rule of law.
As has been pointed out by others and recited by the 11th Circuit, the monument says “I Am The Lord Thy God” and “Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me.” It’s not teaching “principles of honesty, integrity and respect for others,” rather it is reinforcing the ideology of a specific religion or set of religions. And placement of that monument in a public building, especially a courthouse where justice is supposed to be meted out evenly and blindly, sends the message that the state of Alabama endorses this religion and this set of religious beliefs, that the State of Alabama endorses the belief that you are to have no other Gods before the God of the Ten Commandments. And that is what makes people uncomfortable, or downright offended. I, for one, would be VERY concerned about Judge Moore and the Supreme Court of Alabama’s ability to render an impartial decision concerning a non-Christian or someone represented by a non-Christian.
To be posted in all courthouses, capitols, city halls, public schools, and other government buildings:
**SPIRITUALISM IS FALSE. THERE IS NO SOUL AND NO AFTERLIFE. WHEN YOU DIE, YOU CEASE TO EXIST.
TELL THE TRUTH.
ALWAYS DO THE RIGHT THING, WHETHER OR NOT ANYONE ELSE IS LOOKING.
RESPECT OTHERS AS YOU WOULD WISH TO BE RESPECTED YOURSELF.**
I am sure that lekatt will have no objection to this. He believes in honesty, integrity, and respect for others.
Ah, december, you come to the party very late. You can write what you did only because of the struggles, similar to the one discussed here, of those who went before.
One small anecdote. A friend of mine got a job in a bank in New York City out of college. This has been over 50 years ago now After he had been there a couple of years and several people who came when he did got raises and promotions so he asked his boss about it. He was told that as a bank in New York City it was politic for them to have a few Jews as tellers and he was one of those politic Jews. But that didn’t mean that the bank had to promote him or give him a raise.
And by the way, one of the big country club/golf courses in Los Angeles (the name escapes me right now) exists only because Jews weren’t accepted at Riviera and the LA Country Club.
You don’t know what good times you missed.
I am grateful to those who came before, but I was also part of the struggle. I was only the second Jewish officer in the history of a giant, 175-year-old insurance company. I was the only Jew in my last company. They were in the business of reinsurance, which had been traditionally hostile toward Jews.
But, the struggle for Jewish acceptance had nothing to do with the Constitution. Nor was that struggle won by anti-discrimination laws. It was won by individuals who participated in businesses and who started businesses.
I’m sorry but it does have a lot to do with the constitution. I don’t give a damn whether or not anyone is accepted only that no one should be subjected to illegal discrimination that interferes with what the preamble to the constitutions calls the “blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.”
My great-Aunt had to lie about her religion to get a job in the 1930s. This was in New York City. I am afraid that the Holocaust had more to do with making anti-Semitism socially unacceptable than our own efforts, which did not start after WWII.
What this episode tells me is that many on the reactionary right hate the Bill of Rights.
Tell me december: how am I, as witness or anyone otherwise in need of civil justice, supposed to feel about not taking the religious oath in Moore’s court? How can I trust the court, my judge, and other civil institutions when it rather loudly proclaims that it doesn’t trust me, and I violate several of its commandments merely by existing?
Sorry: I meant non-religious oath.
It always amazes me how some Christians try everything they can to insert religion into government and the public school system even after countless decisions have been rendered by various courts making it plain that such actions are inadmissable, then turn around and whine that people are “attacking their religion” when the inevitable objection is raised.
I for one am appalled by the vast majority of my fellow godless heathens who actually seem content to let those horrid Christians erect whatever religious artifacts/paintings/monuments they care to in their own homes, private schools, clubhouses and so forth! Why, my own cable company has three religious channels-- and don’t even let me get started on the number of Christian radio stations playing on the PUBLIC AIRWAVES!!! Christian bookstores dot practically every mini-mall within a hundred miles, and people actually dare to openly declare their religious convictions on tee-shirts, bumper stickers, and coffee mugs with impunity! Oh atheist brethren, how can you sleep at night knowing that your children must walk the streets where churches litter the landscape like confetti on New Year’s Day? I urge all you right-thinking unbelievers to call 1-800-GOD-GONE and give today!
Brought to you by the Evil Atheist Conspiracy to Crush All Religion (And We Mean It, So There!) TM
Perfect love casts out all fear.
Hysteria is a form of fear.
'Nuff said? I hope so.
I didn’t know there was already a topic on this. I made one toay.
Yet my question there is: How is it possible that such a man can come in such a powerful position in a country that declares itself to be completely secular.
(With the remark that such events come across as extremely weird on non US’ers.)
Didn’t get any answers on my question so far.
I’ve got of course some “taliban” and other remarks as if me showing up makes people think : Aha, a chance to open that Magic Box and waist some time on playing magician in order to get him going. It is always amusing to see this popping up on no matter which message board, over and over again.
Salaam. A.
The people who declare the U.S. to be completely secular (or more accurately, that the government in the U.S. ought to be completely secular) oppose Roy Moore’s actions and do not support him.
The people who support Roy Moore disagree that the U.S. is or ought to be completely secular.
That is undoubtably the most stupid thing I have ever read from a supposedly intelligent poster on this board.
Aldebaran, I’m not certain whether the judge was elected or appointed. Some areas of the country would not elect a person with such a strident religious viewpoint if they were aware of it. Other areas of the country have a greater percentage of fundamentalist Christians who would support such a stand. Alabama is such a place. It is part of the area that is known as “the Bible belt.” Believe me, not everyone from Alabama agrees with the judge though. In fact, there are Christian groups who oppose what the judge has done and the stand he is taking.
There are men in much higher positions in Washington who hold views very similar to this judge. I can think of at least one that was appointed by the President of the United States. I hope that our Constitution continues to protect us from such fanatics.
I assume the original version of your question was correct, because of the word “not.”
With or without the 10 Cs posted, you and I don’t share Moore’s religion. He has sworn to uphold the law fairly, regardless. Whether he would do so, I don’t know. But, it’s the man, not the posted 10 Cs, that is our concern.
Furthermore, there’s an appeal process that allows judicial errors to be overruled. A bad ruling by Judge Moore can be remedied, at least in principle.
Note that the posted 10 C’s might have a positive effect. Perhaps they improve the fairness of trials by reminding people that the court is there to provide justice.
I’ve never seen any data showing that the posting of the 10 Cs has a detrimental or a positive effect on trials. Frankly, I doubt that they affect court rulings.
Also, I will repeat a point I made earlier: Just because something is a bad idea doesn’t mean that it’s unconstitutional. If you wanted to pass a law prohibiting the posting of the 10 Cs, that would be OK with me.
The point is that Moore is using his position to make a very public statement of the importance of this faith.
By posting the Ten Commandments in courtrooms, Moore implies that the legal system is allied with his religion. By setting a stone monument with the Ten Commandments in the front lobby of the State Supreme Court, he implies a relationship between the function of that court and the tenets of a specific faith.
The message is clear, and it is not acceptable.
As a native Alabamian currently living in self-imposed exile due to crap like this, I wanted to add a few things that aren’t in all of the articles:
Once a professional kickboxer, Moore was a circuit judge based in Gadsden, AL, which while not exactly a backwater hicktown is certainly not a city that attracts a lot of attention outside of Alabama. He had a crudely made wooden copy of the Big 10 in his courtroom that he was ordered to remove, refused, and the publicity from this made him a national figure and got him elected to the chair of the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. That monument IS his power base as surely as if it were given to him by Gollum.
Since his election Moore has made national and international headlines numerous times, most notably in the case of a lesbian mother petitioning for custody of her children. The other chief justices dismissed the case not on any moral grounds but on a strictly procedural basis related to irregularities in the filing of the suit; this was enough in and of itself to dismiss the case and it required no further incentive. The remarks of all the other justices combined were about nine pages. Moore wrote a bloody rant about how homosexuality is “abhorrent, immoral, detestable, a crime against nature, and a violation of the laws of nature”, inserted quotations from Leviticus, mentioned killing and swords, etc., and generally made such a homophobic ass of himself that FRED PHELPS SENT A GROUP TO SUPPORT HIM!
Numerous other groups, including the Alabama Atheists Association (which had a granite obelisk emblazoned with an atom and some tasteful quotes) and several civil rights leaders, demanded equal space for their monuments and were denied. (There are actually many Christians in Alabama, incidentally, who want the monument gone.)
The pity is that there are so many truly intelligent Alabamians, but they never make the news because of this form of idiocy. The state is suffering from major brain drain as a result of this crap, causing the Fundies to become even more powerful. It so sucks.