Defiant Chief Justice Vows to Keep Ten Commandments Monument

First, this judge was elected not appointed and every report i’ve seen has indicated that conflicts over the 10 Cs were a big part of his appeal.

Judge Moore sits on the Alabama supreme court, the court of final appeals on damn near everything involving state law (barring a major constitutional violation).

I doubt Judge Moore could uphold the law fairly but, to my knowledge, being a religious fanatic is not grounds for removal. If you want to dispute my usage of the term, please read a few of his public remarks first.

The 10 Cs have born precious little relevance to American law outside of New England and even there only before Puritanism began its death dive. The Judge would have done far better to put up a statue of Julius Casear or, if he kept his inclination to engravings of engravings, the Ten Tablets.
A possible positive effect? I’ve also never seen any proof of that. What i do know is that SCOTUS has “EQUAL JUSTICE UNDER LAW” scribled accross its front. If you want to remind people that courts are tehir to give justice, which they realyl aren’t but thats besides the point, this is a far more direct approach.
some interesting quotes from
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A60041-2003Aug14.html

"“Alabama will never give up its right to acknowledge God,” Chief Justice Roy S. Moore declared as he stood in front of the 5,280-pound display. "

so the monument is a direct acknowledgment of God?

“They have no power, no authority, no jurisdiction to tell the state of Alabama that we cannot acknowledge God as the source of our law,”

I would sincerly hope that the judge is aware that the Alabama legislature is not God. If he is not, someone should bring it to his attention.
and a quote from the appeals court

That “some government acknowledgements of God” are permissible, the appeals court said, “does not justify under the establishment clause a 5,280 pound granite monument placed in the central place of honor in a state’s judicial building.”

rather self explanitory

I never said I was intelligent.

A hot subject sure brings the blood pressure up.

Since I do believe in truth, I would have to say no to your plaque.

Consciousness does continue after the death of the body. This has been scientifically shown.

http://www.ndeweb.com/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=65&post=730#POST730

You may believe the study or disbelieve it as you choose.
But that doesn’t change truth. Truth is like gravity, it works whether we believe it or not.

Love
Leroy

The argument here is not about separation of church and state, or the Constitution or the Bill of Rights.
It is simply about control and who will exercise it. I say let the atheists have it. I will think as I please as always. And others will think as they please as always. There is no gain for them.

Love

lekatt, I don’t suppose that the discussion here could be about control and separation of church and state and the Constitution and its ammendments?

The doctrine of the separation of church and state is based on the concepts found in the Bill of Rights which are the first ten ammendments to the Constitution which has some very specific things to say about what can and what can’t be controlled.

Now see…Wasn’t that easy?

I’m not ready to surrender our government yet to any one group. Pardon while I “render unto Caesar.”

I am in agreement with you and maybe you have singled out why this is confusing to people from other countries. You don’t have to be religion-free to be a government official. And since one religion is not to be favored over any other, religious fanatics do hold office. They have the right of freedom of speech just as other citizens do. That’s why the President can mention God as many times as he wants to in a speech. And it explains why a fanatical judge can be elected. That doesn’t mean that either will necessarily remain in office if they begin to infringe on the rights of others.

Sampiro, I’m sorry to hear about Alabama’s woes. Parts of the state are so beautiful and I enjoyed my visits to Montgomery. That does make the ridiculousness of this situation (and the accumulation of the fee) even more repugnant. Why should the taxpayers of Alabama have to foot the bill for this man’s decision?

december, I’ve heard that the appeals process can be very expensive (for the accused and for the state) and take a long time. The time spent unjustly incarcerated isn’t something that can be compensated adequately.

Lekatt, you still have yet to prove that this case was brought up by three atheists. Please produce your cite or stop making false claims.

Another example of selective enforcement of Constitutional protections. All too often, those who exhibit “concern” over First Amendment violations, are perfectly happy with the types of laws prohibited by the Second Amendment.

“With respect to the words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.”

  • James Madison - 'father of the Constitution.

"As a native Alabamian currently living in self-imposed exile due to** crap** like this, I wanted to add a few things that aren’t in all of the articles:
…Alabama is flat broke- by which I mean B-R-O-K-E- and in desperate need of a new tax plan that’s not expected to pass. (Alabama has the lowest real estate taxes in the nation of any state that has real estate taxes, and it shows.)

…The state is suffering from major brain drain as a result of this crap, causing the Fundies to become even more powerful. It so sucks." – Thus saith Sampiro.


Come back** Sampiro**, the Alabama Educational Stystem is not finished with you. You say “crap” too often and you sound childishly inaticulate when you say everything “sucks”.

Lord knows we tried. We increased the number of school teachers by 43% during the last 30 years while the number of students attending school dropped 17%. What’s a body to do? During this time the average test scores dropped 18 points.

Yes** Sampiro**, I understand that you are ashamed that Alabama has the lowest real estate taxes in the nation, but take heart, the largest tax increase ever proposed in Alabama’s history comes to vote in a few weeks. Maybe the good people of Alabama will see fit to impose these draconian taxes on themselves and the astute money-managers in Montgomery will take the money transform Alabama into California and make you proud.

But back to Chief Justice Roy Moore. Big deal! Its in the rotunda not in the courtroom for goodness sake. Damnation, can’t the feds take a joke? So what if Judge Moore is a little excessive in his religious persuits. Don’t they have anything else to do other than meddle in the affairs of Alabamians?

After all, Judge Moore isn’t going to jail anybody just because they forgot to remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.

This is an argument which wouldn’t pass muster in an elementary school classroom:

“Johnny, did you shoot a spitwad at Susie?”

“But teacher, Timmy’s eating paste again!”

“We’re not talking about what Timmy did, we’re talking about what you did.”

The Feds? What in tarnation are you talking about? The lawsuit was filed by three (1…2…3, count 'em) Alabamians. This wasn’t started by the Feds but I’m pretty sure it’ll be ended by them.

Razorsharp, Lekatt-

I want the plaque down. I want the phrase “In God We Trust” removed from our currency.

I am a Jew.

 I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I feel his presence in my heart and in my life. 

I am NOT attacking religion. I have no wish to destroy Bibles, churches etc.

I am interested in keeping church and state seperated.

My great grandfather came to this country because of the tsars’ porgoms. I currently live in a neighborhood filled with immigrants from the former Soviet Union. One night, an elderly man stopped me and explained how happy he was to see me wearing a yarmulke. In Russia, he had been forced to practice Judaism secretly. He knew that he could be beaten, jailed, or killed simplu for attending synagogue or studying Talmud. But here, he was guaranteed rights and religious freedom.

I want that freedom for everyone. The government must not favor any religion more than another. It must also respect the rights of citizens who choose not to practice a religion.

December-I grew up in Virginia, the eastern love handle of the Bible belt. In a high school of 2000 students, there were 20 Jews. In elementary, I asked my principal why the large display was devoted entirely to Christmas. My parents finally had to meet with the man in order for our faith to have equal representation. School was full of things like that.

My mother had it worse. She was in school before mandatory prayer was ruled unconstitutional. The prayer didn’t bother her too much, until it got to the phrase ‘our Lord, Jesus Christ’.

I wear a yarmulke on my head. I carry the mark of God’s covenant on my putz. I don’t shove my faith down any one else’s throat or wave it in their face. When other people do it to me, it’s rude. When the government does it, it’s unconstitutional.

You can doubtless find quotes by various framers of the constitution on all sides of any issue you care to address. If you look hard enough you might even find a quote or an action of Madison’s that runs counter to the above quote.

The constitution gives Congress the power to “promote the general welfare” and the authority to “enact all laws necessary and proper” to carry out that power. Even James Madison would agree, I think, that a phrase of his that was a generalized statement of a philosophy of government shouldn’t be taken over 200 years later as a rule of law that would absolutely determine what could or couldn’t be done today.

I’m afraid that I must quibble with your quibble.

Thomas Jefferson wrote in a letter in 1802 to the Danbury Babtists:

An then there is James Madison.

and this

While in practice this separation may not have been enforced on a regular basis, it is wrong to assert that this is a modern reinterpretation of the 1st admendment.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Milum *
Come back Sampiro
*, the Alabama Educational Stystem is not finished with you. You say “crap” too often and you sound childishly inaticulate when you say everything “sucks”.**

I’ve been published in at last count about 15 peer reviewed periodicals, I’ve authored two textbooks, received several research grants, had two theses accepted without need for revision, and am currently deciding whether to present my latest paper in at an academic forum in Prague or Bangkok- I’ve been asked to attend both and they’re during the same week. I attribute none of this to being a graduate of the Alabama school system but as something to be proud of because I accomplished it in spite of this fact.
Believe it or not I didn’t use the word “crap” or “sucks” in any of my professional writings because somewhere along the line I learned that message boards really aren’t the place for formal authority. But I suppose if they were the only place I could be assured of being published, I might feel differently.

Lord knows we tried. We increased the number of school teachers by 43% during the last 30 years while the number of students attending school dropped 17%.

And why did it drop? Did Alabamians start cornering the market on IUDs or drink from the waters that sterilized the women of Gilead in HANDMAID’S TALE? No- it’s because everybody who can afford to, black or white and rich or poor, sends their kids to private school so that they’ll have a halfway decent shot at a diploma that’s not laughed at should they ever wish to live outside the county of their birth. One of my closest friends is currently working 7 days per week at three jobs so that his sons can go to an Episcopal school in Montgomery, where there are several schools in racially mixed districts that are 100% black solely because the only people who go there are the children of black people to poor to afford an alternative. (Though there is a sizeable and very active black middle-class and upper-class, the monetary divide between black and white Montgomerians remains incredible.)

What’s a body to do? During this time the average test scores dropped 18 points.

Which might be a good incentive to look at who you’re hiring and how qualified they are to teach. I had teachers in the Alabama public schools who taught that women have less ribs than men because of Adam & Eve, that the sun revolves around the Earth, that Turkey was a Catholic country, World War II caused Russia to become Communist, and AIDS was God’s wrath against fags. I also saw a Jewish kid’s head held down by a teacher as he was forced to participate in a prayer to Christ at an FFA meeting. I’ve certainly known good teachers in Alabama, but they’re the acute minority and they don’t last long- they either get out of the game altogether or they go to Georgia.

** the largest tax increase ever proposed in Alabama’s history comes to vote in a few weeks**

And only a few decades too late. My brother, a self-made millionaire, is one of the few people I know who’s in favor of it even though it would affect him greatly, but he sees the need. The “Vote No” signs are more frequently seen, however, as luckily for the state politicians most of the voters in Alabama attended the public schools.

** Maybe the good people of Alabama will see fit to impose these draconian taxes **

Draconian? I spoke to my mother earlier today. Her house is appraised at just over $90,000. Her property taxes: $230 per year. Her property taxes will hardly rise at all if the vote passes because its greatest affects are for those who make more than $60k per year.

Montgomery will take the money [and] transform Alabama into California and make you proud.

I’d settle for Mississippi, something I didn’t think an Alabamian would ever say. (“Thank God for Mississippi” has been the Allah Akhbar of Alabama politicians for far longer than I’ve been alive.) At this stage I doubt even a well run lottery would greatly help.

But back to Chief Justice Roy Moore. Big deal! Its in the rotunda

Which every visitor to the courthouse must pass.

** not in the courtroom for goodness sake.**

Unlike his last 10 Commandments plaque. And why wouldn’t he allow Alvin Holmes to place the marker to MLK or the Alabama Atheists to place their monument there? Would you say “so what?” if it was an Islamic prayer rug, statue of Buddha, or a Catholic shrine to St. Martin of Torres?

** Damnation, can’t the feds take a joke?**

Moore is joking? Was his indictment of the lesbian mother a joke? Perhaps he should hit the comedy circuit then and let somebody less inclined to levity have the Chief Justice’s chair.

** So what if Judge Moore is a little excessive in his religious persuits. Don’t they have anything else to do other than meddle in the affairs of Alabamians?**

I speak for most dissenters here when I say that I don’t give a tinker’s dam if Moore dresses like a Buddhist nun and handles water moccasins caught fresh in the Coosa that morning in his private views, but he took an oath to support the laws of the land, not the laws of his religion or even his own conscience.

**After all, Judge Moore isn’t going to jail anybody just because they forgot to remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy. **

Then why have the monument there if you’re not going to enforce it? And again, why enter passages from Leviticus into the court record on the lesbian mother (who was made to swear that she had not had gay sex while in Alabama awaiting appeal)?

I’d argue further, but I’m guessing you’re a graduate of the Alabama public school system and I’ve loaned my “Vocabulary Words for 5th Graders” to an Elmore County lawyer.

An editorial from the Montgomery Advertiser posits that an end might be in site for Moore’s Holy Folly (who intends to run for governor after the expiration of his term, incidentally). A complaint on Moore’s competence to perform his job will be heard by the Judicial Inquiry Commission and several other members of the court, most of them devout Christians and conservative, are essentially fed up and not going to allow the $250,000 per month in potential fines be paid from state coffers.

Alabama’s Canons of Judicial Ethics require judges to “respect and comply with the law” and to conduct themselves “at all times in a manner that promotes public confidence in the integrity and impartiality of the judiciary.” Moore plainly has not done that.

also

"Justice Gorman Houston… convened the other associate justices “to assure that the state of Alabama is ‘a government of laws and not of men,’ as our Constitution requires.” Houston… cited the famous words of United States v. lee : “No man in this country is so high that he is above the law. No officer of the law may set that law at defiance with impunity. All of the officers of the government, from the highest to the lowest, are creatures of the law and bound to obey it.”

Sampiro:* “I’d argue further, but I’m guessing you’re a graduate of the Alabama public school system and I’ve loaned my “Vocabulary Words for 5th Graders” to an Elmore County lawyer.”*


Manners. Thats what we teach well in Alabama. Good manners.

Such as the comment
You say “crap” too often and you sound childishly inaticulate when you say everything “sucks”.

and the sarcastic

Maybe the good people of Alabama will see fit to impose these draconian taxes on themselves and the astute money-managers in Montgomery will take the money transform Alabama into California and make you proud.?

Or how about Judge Moore’s pleasant ditty to the lesbian mother (of children who had been physically abused by their father) that she was “abhorrent, immoral, detestable” for her lifestyle and his warning that his office “carries the power of the sword … to prohibit conduct with physical penalties, such as confinement and even execution”?

You may want to go pray on the street before your corner’s taken. Ah, but where are my manners? Be sure to take some of this year’s blackberry jelly and scuppanong wine with you- I’ll get a fruit jar- burning crosses is hot work, after all.

If manners is what is taught in Alabama schools then add up yet another failure because they can’t even do that right. (Oops- I used the contraction “can’t”- that probably discredits all I say.) Plus spare me the rhetoric on Southern hospitality and courtesy- I grew up in a politically prominent family, I knew George Wallace and his brothers and Fob James and Albert Brewer all quite well, I’ve been to tent revivals and political rallies and gubernatorial speeches from Gulf Shores to The Shoals, and for all the “sirs”, “ma’ams”, and “how them grambabies doin?” there wasn’t an ounce of non-self interest to be found. Southern culture, while I am part of it and not ashamed of it and which infiltrates my own worldview, is actually much more based on rituals than manners- it’s not the giving a damn that’s important so much as the pretending to. Without compassion (to which Alabamians are no more congenitally heir to or immune from than anybody else I’ve met anywhere I’ve lived and to which neither Christians nor Alabamians hold the exclusive copyright) manners are as empty as the temple rites of a god no longer worshipped. I’d rather schools teach my kids “the three R’s” as well as the liberal arts, critical thinking, and government, than “manners”, which along with religious instruction and morality I can handle on my own.

*"...I've been to tent revivals and political rallies and gubernatorial speeches from Gulf Shores to The Shoals, and for all the "sirs", "ma'ams", and "how them grambabies doin?" there wasn't an ounce of non-self interest to be found. Southern culture, while I am part of it and not ashamed of it and which infiltrates my own worldview, is actually much more based on rituals than manners- it's not the giving a damn that's important so much as the pretending to. Without compassion (to which Alabamians are no more congenitally heir to or immune from than anybody else I've met anywhere I've lived and to which neither Christians nor Alabamians hold the exclusive copyright) manners are as empty as the temple rites of a god no longer worshipped."* 
 ~ well said by **Sampiro**
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hey **Sampiro**, I like you. Your writing reveals  that you are clear minded, honest, unpretentious, and quite capable of glib self- righteous indignation when you feel that you've been crossed.
 
To wit; you are a true son of Alabama and a worthy ambassador to the outside world representing  the fine culture of the south.

 I agree with much (uh...make that some) of what you say. And  if in your maturity you get homesick, come on back to  Alabama.  Give me a call, homeboy, and we'll find a beerjoint  and me and you will have  a beer.

ME B,

Thank you for the reply.
It still comes across as extremely weird to me, but as I said before: to outsiders president and politicians and public servants seem to be that focussed on the word “God”, that you would believe they think God stands constantly besides them.

An interesting question comes to my mind which I think could be a good issue for a new thread: What if a stubborn complete atheist would become president of the USA (adding the question if such a man would even stand a chance to get elected) and all that rethoric of “God bless America” and “God this” and “God that” would suddenly disappear from all these public speaches. And the “In God we trust finally from the money”.

Is this a topic to make on GB or do I have to place it elswhere?

Salaam. A