I would argue that I recognize (to the best of my education on such matters) what the overarching set essentially consists of, but have an understanding and peace about what I choose to implement or hold true in my individual application of the set of beliefs.
Eg. I understand the laws of Kashrut, where they derive from and why it’s believed they are important. I also am at peace with the fact I do not observe them and why some branches of Judaism do not feel adherence is important.
There are obviously differences on agreed ethical values and interpretation of the significance of mythology, which is exactly why different types of Judaism are given qualifying names (for example, “Orthodox” Judaism as opposed to “Reform” Judaism).
However, they all share as it were a family resemblence - that is, they are more similar to each other in these respects than any one of them is to (say) Christianity or Islam.
Yes, I’d say so. As IvoryTowerDenizen says, you don’t need to do something a specific way to agree it’s important to the religion.
Ethics - value of human life and of justice (there are others, but I think those are the biggies)
Myths - stories of Torah (and to a lesser extent stories of the rabbis)
Lifestyle - kashrut, Shabbat, Passover, Yom Kippur.
You can find Jews who don’t do each of those things in the same way, but I don’t think you could find a Jew who didn’t recognise the majority of those as being Jewish.
We believe:
The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.
UU principles. Its a shared ethical and belief system. Its a culture. It provides rituals. There isn’t anything in there about God - there is something in there about spiritual growth. I’m unconvinced that “spiritual growth” means “supernatural growth” - I think it can be as simple as being a better human being.
Maybe because I’ve been UU for so long now in a church with a minister that is agnostic, teaching Sunday school to kids who have all sorts of beliefs regarding God, that it seems rather obvious to me that you can be a religious atheist.
What is used to become closer to God.
SecondJudith, IvoryTowerDenizen, Malthus:
So are you trying to tell me that knowing the importance of Kashrut to Jews who observe it is considered to be a “common lifestyle” with Jews who do observe it? Being aware of the concept, or even learned in it, means you necessarily have more in common with Jews who only eat Kosher than with, say, a Christian shopkeeper who knows what to stock for his clientele who will only buy and eat Kosher food?
Second Judith, you identified two specific values that you consider “the biggies” that Jews of all stripes would agree on. But what about obedience to the word of G-d? Do you not think that the Jews who believe that G-d exists and dictated the Torah to Moses consider that to be the overall “biggie” while those of you who think atheism is compatible with considering one’s self an observant Jew obviously don’t consider this at all?
I’m saying that to an outside observer there is obviously a “family resemblence” between all of the varieties of Judaism. Obviously, to some (notably, to the Orthodox) the differences loom large, but they are differences and disputes between those who are fundamentally identifiable as being ‘of the same kind’, although they may be worlds away in some social attitudes and religious opinions - for example, an Orthodox Rabbi may look ascance at a homosexual, female Reform Rabbi, but on the other hand both derive from the same set of religious lore, mythology and traditions (albeit they weigh and interpret them differently).
Yes, it is part of my religious and ethnic heritage and as such is important to me. In addition, knowing the rules of kosher (such as a shop keeper might know) is totally different from understanding it’s importance. I can tell you at least three different reasons why the laws of Kosher are important and of value, as an ethical part of Judaism, as I’ve been taught. That goes way beyond an operational understanding.
From my mom: She kept kosher to honor her mother who was killed in the Holocaust.
From my Lubuvitch rebbe as small child: G-d wants us to, and by obeying G-d we become more righteous. As Jews we strive to be righteous people and do mitzvot.
From my Conservative rabbi (most of elementary school/high school): The ethical reasons idea behind kosher is one of self control, self discipline and humanity. We differentiate ourselves from animals who will eat without thought. We have an ethical responsibility to be humane to the animals that feed us and to treat ourselves with care.
These ideas directly influence my ethical upbringing regardless if I keep Kosher.
Where is the place for the theist Jew who is not a Torah literalist? Who believes in G-d, but doesn’t believe the Torah is literally true?
Yes.
Yes. Kashrut is part of my culture, my heritage and my religion, whether I observe it or not. None of those are true of the Christian shopkeeper.
Do I think theist Torah literalists consider theism to be an intrinsic part of Judaism, to the point that atheists or non-literalists are not Jewish? No, I don’t. Obviously I can’t mindread every single one of them, but the vast majority? No.
I know you read this thread because you commented in it. Please refer to it if you’re still confused. I have no desire to turn this thread into yet another rehash of “are atheist Jews really Jews? Yes, but really?”
Fine, you’re right, I shouldn’t bother re-hashing it. I thought it was relevant when someone in this thread tried to separate “culture” from “religion” and pointed to Judaism (unqualified) as belonging to the “religion” camp.
The bottom line is that you just did (in your most recent post) identify Kashrut as part of your “culture” and also your “religion.” Is there a distinction between the two? Does a shared history mean the same religion, even if some feel it’s still a going concern and others feel it’s a museum relic? Apropos of this thread specifically, is there a line to be drawn between “culture” and “religion”?
Torah literalists do not see Jews who do not believe as not being Jews. They see them as Jews who are not observing the Torah.
This to me is one of the crucial points: Without a supernatural element to whatever you are doing, it’s just culture. If you’re going through a ceremony because a supernatural entity is “telling” you to do so, you are practicing religion. If you’re going through that same ceremony because your ancestors have been practicing it for centuries and it brings you a sense of belonging with others who practice it, you are practicing culture.
There is a difference between them (which is why I listed them separately), although I do admit within Judaism and Jewish culture it’s a bit more difficult to tease them out. Rabbinic Judaism has never been the dominant religion in any country but Israel, and so has developed its own parallel cultures with the dominant (usually but not always) Christian and Muslim cultures.
I say “its own parallel cultures” because there isn’t one Jewish culture. There is eastern European Jewish culture, Persian Jewish culture, Spanish Jewish culture, Iraqi Jewish culture, Indian Jewish culture, western European Jewish culture, Moroccan Jewish culture, Turkish Jewish culture, north east American Jewish culture, etc.
If you sit a Moroccan Jew and a Polish Jew next to each other and say, “What is Hanukkah?”, they’re going to give you the same answer. If you ask them, “What do you eat on Hanukkah?” they’re going to give you different answers. Same religion, different culture. If you sit an Indian Jew and a white New York Jew next to each other and ask, “What makes a Jewish wedding?” you’ll get the same answer. If you ask them, “What do you do the night before a Jewish wedding?” you’ll get a different answer. The culture of each of these is different, but the religion of all of them is recognizably the same, and that is Judaism.
The Kaifeng Jews are an interesting data point about what Jews in non-Christian non-Muslim cultures identify as essential: Torah, kashrut, circumcision (I should have put that on my list, really), mikveh, holiday observance (Hanukkah, not the two I had on my list) and study.
(In another kind of example, having missed the edit window: as a British Jew, I observe Christmas-the-family-party every year. It isn’t part of my religion - it’s part of my culture. A Persian Jew doesn’t have a culture involving Christmas, but as a Briton I observe Christmas whether I like it or not. That’s culture.)
Culture is what you put in a cookbook.
Examples of Judaism as culture: making hamantashen for Purim; jokes using Yiddish loan-words; chicken soup for everything.
Examples of Judaism as religion: asking your Rabbi about a question of ethics; attending synagogue on High Holy Days; sitting shiva.
How can we tell the difference, where God is not directly invoked? Well, religion has more to do with ethical questions and matters of ritual and communal observance. It is not as easily transferrable to non-members (and is unlikely to be initiated by them - that is, one may invite a non-Jew to High Holiday services or to sit shiva, but a non-Jew is unlikely to do these things on their own - for example, a non-Jew would not sit shiva for their own, non-Jewish, dead relations).
In contrast, non-Jews can - and do - readily absorb aspects of Jewish culture, just as Jews readily absorb aspects of non-Jewish culture.
You can see this readily in the matter of holidays. A non-Jew may (for example) take up playing with the dreidel, just as a Jew might readily engage in Christmas gift-giving - but a Jew would be much less likely to attend a Christmas Mass. The former (Santa Claus, ho-ho-ho, giving gifts, trees) is more of a cultural expression these days, in spite of its specifically Christian roots and meaning. The latter, attending Mass, is more of a religious expression.
That’s why I have no hesitation in saying Judaism is, for practicing Jews, a religion - as practicing Jews do things that go beyond mere expressions of Jewish culture, like attend synagogue, perform Jewish rituals, ask questions of their rabbis, etc.
A non-Jew could easily learn a bunch of Yiddish, cook Jewish foods, make jokes about overbearing mothers, etc. as well as any Jew - that is, they could take on the cultural aspects of Judaism, without any religious aspects.